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At this moment in time.nap
Which makes STS the best anyone alive has ever seen.
Which makes STS the best anyone alive has ever seen.
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tis true, but GT, by end of season do you think Frankel will be higher?..only way I see is by beating the Aus Mare - Black Caviar by 5 lengths or pissing up in breeders cup..neither option look likely though...just my thoughts though...i just cant see Frankel and BC getting it on and Frankel can only beat what is in front or more say behind him and his rating will never go above 140...will the great Sheikh have some balls and go for Breeders cup?
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Breeders Cup is a drugged-up circus would hate to see Frankel go there.
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but only chance to improve that is the problem
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Can't think of many European champion races who improved by racing in the US
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*racehorses
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Not a chance of Frankel going to the US m8 unless he was syndicated and guaranteed to stand there for a covering season next year.Not an impossibility given Prince KAs sporting spirit and astute business acumen.
Personally I doubt he will ever meet BC.........even in the breeding shed. |
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The OP is probably correct.............at the moment,although defeating this years crop of 3yr olds giving away weight later in the year will give Frankel more kudos and possibly see his rating improve further,still its all subjective but great fun.
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Do you mean best racehorse alive ? Reckon Sea Bird would have beated STS on Arc form. Maybe some of the older guys on here could give an opinion.
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STS wasnt sexy enough for the Racing Post or Timeform,I am a huge Frankel fan but the ratings from Timeform are a joke.
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i think we can all agree Frankel is incredible and a beauty to watch in his races, but to improve its rating is very hard work as he only has the same horses to beat, yes he can beat them further each time but will only go up one notch or two - which is a shame how it works...sometimes I feel critical towards tom on him and not really pushing the button and slamming these rivals further, but why beat up a winner to do so??..so all in all it is impossible to say who is better - different styles, different races and different opposition...if i am honest I would have to say in my heart Frankel is better but stats don't lie and STS is better..a great debate btw GT
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oi oi STS
frankel is a monster but if henry keeps him to a mile then i dont see how he can be rated alongside4 sts, mill reef dancing brave etc... hes a great miler, no doubt about it, and it would take a good one to match him over that trip, maybe none could we'll nver truly know. but the achievements of sea the stars are unparalleled, just imagine what he had achieved by the end of his 3 yr old season \nd then look at what frankel did, beat excelebration for the umptied time, got boring. then he reappears in another 8f races against the same horses, i love to see him run but is boring imo. exceptional performances , of course, but a boring one. sts conquored the world in one season. youll get the usual jokers saying he had nout to beat but there were some good horses that season and he beat them senseless breaking a couple of track records on the way. the guineas derby and arc has never been done in the same season, thats how good he is and he won the juddmonte , eclipse and irish champ to book, that will never be achieved in my lifetime i reckon. he beat that seasons king george winner, sussex winner, french derby etc etc. you will hear it was a poor year, yet how many other poor years have their been in the |
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Dominic Gardiner-Hill believes Frankel is capable of taking his rating to even more astonishing levels after the British Horseracing Authority's handicapper allotted the colt a mark of 138 for his victory in Saturday's JLT Lockinge Stakes at Newbury.
The decision to raise him 2lb from last season's 136 makes Frankel officially the highest-rated horse in the world for 25 years. Prince Khalid Abdullah's unbeaten and 10-time winner can only be trumped by the same owner's Dancing Brave (141 in 1986), although the World Thoroughbred Rankings scale has been lowered slightly since that time. Frankel leaves behind Peintre Celebre and Generous on 137 and Sea The Stars on 136. Gardiner-Hill was no different to the entire racing community in being impressed by Frankel's fourth and most clear-cut defeat of Excelebration as the son of Galileo brushed off any fears over a slightly interrupted preparation. "I do think he can go higher," said the handicapper. "I watched the Lockinge again today and, to be honest, he did it very easily. "To go higher he is going to have to beat something other than Excelebration, whether it is going to be a horse like Cirrus Des Aigles, we will have to wait and see. "I do suspect he can be a 140-horse, it just depends if he gets the opportunity." Reflecting on his thinking over the mark of 138, which must first be ratified by his international colleagues, Gardiner-Hill said: "I'm happy with the rating. My first reaction to the Lockinge was one of relief, as Frankel had confirmed what he had shown last season. "It's always a concern when you give ratings in the mid 130s that it might not work out for the horses as four-year-olds but I think there are valid reasons for saying this was his best performance yet. "You only have the opportunity to push horses higher on what they beat, and if you look at Excelebration, Frankel beat him by four lengths on two occasions last year and by two and a quarter on another, and this went up to five lengths on Saturday. "And in the case of Dubawi Gold, he was beaten by seven and three-quarter lengths in the QEII and this went up to nine on Saturday. "One factor for this is the pace as I thought Ian Mongan set the race up perfectly on Bullet Train. "I'm not blaming Ian Mongan's riding at all on other occasions, but this was the first time that everything went spot-on for Frankel in terms of pace." Frankel will now be rated 6lb higher than the second-placed horse in the current international rankings, Australian sprinter Black Caviar (132), who is due to arrive in the UK next month for her first overseas test at Royal Ascot. While Black Caviar heads for the Diamond Jubilee Stakes, a run for Frankel in the Queen Anne Stakes at same meeting is the preference of Sir Henry Cecil. Speaking on his website, www.sirhenrycecil.com, the trainer said: "Over the last two seasons he has come on a good deal from his first race and hopefully he will do the same this season. "He has strengthened and grown up a great deal mentally. All being well his next start will be at Ascot in either the Queen Anne or the Prince of Wales's, the former being my first preference at the moment, but we will see." Cecil also reiterated his thanks to his staff after Frankel overcame an injury scare last month, and to Mongan and his regular lead-horse and pacemaker Bullet Train. He said: "After the hold-up in his training schedule at a crucial time it was wonderful to get him there on the day to win. "Shane Fetherstonhaugh and all those involved with him have done a great job and his success is down to team-work. "I am very grateful to them all and to his lead-horse and three-parts brother Bullet Train who also fulfils such an important role. "For a middle-distance horse he did very well to finish fourth." |
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....300 yr history of the sport yet hes the first.
listen everyone on here knows i love him but he was an incredible horse. theres no question. just like frankel, unfortunately his connections wont allow us to see how much. night all. |
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was never a poor year I like waving...sts was a monster, but agree with what you say to some point...i love watching frankel, but want him to destroy fields not by 5 or 7 but by 20...it wont happen as this horse needs looking after...i think slamming black caviar by 10 lengths would do it, but cant see them meeting and also have a gut feeling that it wuld be closer...but lets be honest both horses are the best we will see in 21st century and we are all fortunate it happened so early in this century
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Frankel is without doubt a very very talented horse and I did report his progress on this forum which contradicted all the TV and RP stuff.Claire Balding perhaps being the worst offender,a non reader of the Forum since Liam in the GN and the D YKE on a bike stuff.
Still leaves the horse with a bit to find on all known parameters of judging greatness,dont forget RACING FOR CHANGE et al..........they need a SEXED up star. He is a sexy horse without doubt.........GREATEST EVER?  |
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Swap connections and you swap Sea The Stars and Frankel's Timeform ratings imo.
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STS beat Delegator in the Guineas and the mighty Youmzain in the Arc.
His 2 records were in the Eclipse at Sandown (the runner up Rip Van Winkle also broke the record after being whipped across the face by Kinane on STS) and at York, a record that was only a few years old as the course had changed. To say he is 10lb better than Frankel is obviously lunacy, or are you fishing AGAIN GT-Mole?      |
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BTW I also loved STS but his form can be viewed with suspicion too
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NAP BM............nail on the head.
Who won the Arc last year? A filly who broke the track record and one or two were lucky enough to back,is she better than Dancing Brave,Sagace,Sea Bird,STS or Workforce in achievement? |
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YOUMZAIN..........the best yardstick for how many Arcs?
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Talk to me about Delgator first. How would he get on against Frankel?
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Frankel would murder Delegator...........any distance.
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thebus - you want Frankel to 'destroy fields by 20, rather than or 7 lengths' but STS never won a race by 3 lengths in its life - always just did enough, very classy we'd all agree, but did he have the electric acceleration of Dancing Brave? no. Did he ever take your breath away, as Frankel did in the Guineas, or when he quickened again in the Sussex? Not for me.
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It's a shame that STS wasn't around in Frankel's era. His style of running would have actually made STS try his hardest.
So close! |
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Sea The Stars had the AOB bloodline only just behind him at the derby, Frankel had the same Bloodline bang out with the washing every race and yet he is "in the same mold of the AOB bloodline"
Frankel clearly is a miler superstar and its a shame that 12 furlongs gets all the spotlight as Frankel is Clearly a Super Speedster and not a Super stayer and he wants to spit out his bit when he is only a couple of furlongs out as we know he can burn up the turf for up to a mile which is not what many horses in the world can do and Sea the stars would make him go like the clappers if he ever raced him! |
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I have personally changed my opinion of this great horse and I cant see Black caviar beating him on turf at 7 or 8 furlongs, impossible!
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Sea The Stars a great horse.... but look at the cast list of runner ups in his Group 1 races at 3: Delegator, Fame And Glory twice, Rip Van Winkle , Mastercraftsman and Youmzain
None of these will go down in the annals of racing as great horses and Sea The Stars sadly never beat any of them by more than 2 1/2 lengths. Would Frankel beat these horses by 2 1/2 lengths? I would venture at least 4, if not 5 or more every time |
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Frankels average winning distances are greater than both STS and BC, case closed!
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its a hell of a debate though
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Frankels destruction of his guineas field has to be the greatest performance ive seen by miles , still cannot believe what i seen that day
True it maybe wasnt the strongest guineas but that was breathtaking , also frankel has never been beaten which must go some way to determine greatness , as must the fact frankel is carrying these performances into a third season . There is no doubt frankel will step up in trip , i can see the champion stakes as the day as by then henry will know others will have had a hard season whearas frankel will have hardly been in a race like sat . Frankels great strength is his stamina , which is untapped and wins most races like a bit of work , by the end off the season frankel will, although it sounds stupid be like a fresh horse , |
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fairweather - it is the only way to get to 142+ by destroying fields, but no i do not want the horse beat up..sts in the arc did take away my breath from winning how he did...it is all about opinions and neither the two horses should be compared...as they are not comparable. We should e,brace how lucky we are to have seen such two stars in the same decade...I really believe that Black Caviar is a true monster and the one who could really show Frankel to its best..STS won everything put in front of him and cannot be discombobulated (old word from the forum ai ai) Frankel must beat Black Caviar to improve rating end of...the thing is I think Frankel could be the highest rated horse ever but wont have the opportunity to do it
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STS was never extended............his jockey......like the horse was supreme.....1/2 a length or 10?
It could have been as both wished,he broke track records in 2nd gear..........HAS BLACK CAVIAR ever broken a TRACK record? |
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Frankel will get 10 furlongs if he can be handled properly which his jockey is quite good at now. Black caviar has broken a track record but it was timed via video for some strange reason?
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Well into my 50's, have seen a few great horses but the best of those imo would be Sir Ivor,Vaguely Noble, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Alleged & Dancing Brave, and Frankel would have to be up there with them. Sea The Stars was a brilliant horse but imo would not have lived with Frankel in saying that i'm only talking about races over a mile, beyond that in the dark like everybody else. while i'm on my soapbox getting rather fed up with all this Black Caviar nonesense has they will never meet on the racecourse but if they did she would end up like Canford Cliffs, punch drunk & retired.
W |
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Fair enough thebus. Id also say i think Frankel should be upped to 10f this year, the way he settled at Newbury was most encouraging, and i cant believe a horse that can win a guineas blasting off like that, cant stay 10f being held up and ridden 'normally'.
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Has anyone noticed how Frankel has filled out and he looks more like a sprinter now and yet he was going away at 8 furlong LTO and carrying the extra body weight with gusto, cleary he is better this year as Sir Henry has claimed.
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Bf........you should have gone to Specsavers.
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caward - this black caviar is ten fold CC, make no mistake, she toys with 127 rated horses back there...just like Frankel does here...one thing for sure - it is not a forgone conclusion with Frankel beating Black Caviar, all I am saying it to get past STS he must win by 5 lengths +..it is all about opinions but her form is immense and plus she would get an allowance as a mare...which could prove vital
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Only one horse could ever speed up continually up to 12 furlongs and "big red" wont be repeated for a long time with the best of breeding and if you want to watch the best race ever watch the race when he took the 12 furlong world time record still standing today and broke the second best horse in the USA Shan whom never raced again!
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