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Excelebration had only won a grp3 as a 4yo, Dubawi gold form in two races as a 4yo 0 and 4th
The rest were junk pacemakers
Yet timeform would have us believe Frankel ran to a mark the same as sea the stars finished his career on!! After winning the 2000 guineas, derby, arc!!!
There is no way in a million years that 136 could have been ran to yesterday considering the opposition, no way. This is just over the top hype and total bs. John Oxx Must be livid!
The rest were junk pacemakers
Yet timeform would have us believe Frankel ran to a mark the same as sea the stars finished his career on!! After winning the 2000 guineas, derby, arc!!!
There is no way in a million years that 136 could have been ran to yesterday considering the opposition, no way. This is just over the top hype and total bs. John Oxx Must be livid!
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Wow, whenever Frankel nearly gets beat, its all because of queally. In reality he is getting the best out of him every run, its just a shame there isnt a true 136 rated horse up against him.
139? STS ended his career on 136, after beating the best of the best, in all the top races, over different distances, different ground, different continents!
Timeform need to get their act together and re calculate. That is total bs! Where is fat face mcgrath?
Timeform need to get their act together and re calculate. That is total bs! Where is fat face mcgrath?
i agree with denathorn, Zoffany and Dubawi Gold, not exactly world beaters. cheers.
what about nathanial , treasure beach and dream ahead , all had thier chance
this horse hasnt even been whipped yet
this horse hasnt even been whipped yet
It's not just that Frankel is beating his opposition, it's that he's usually pulverising them and his guineas win may just as well have been a solo trial for all the difference the opposition made.
As for "only" winning that race by 6L, anyone would think that was a regular occurrence and winning any flat race by 6L is fairly rare but to win a mile race by 6L is even more rare and to win a Gr1 or a classic by that distance is yet even more rare again, although before anyone mentions Homecoming Queen or any other of the few exceptions to the rule, rarely doesn't mean never.
As for "only" winning that race by 6L, anyone would think that was a regular occurrence and winning any flat race by 6L is fairly rare but to win a mile race by 6L is even more rare and to win a Gr1 or a classic by that distance is yet even more rare again, although before anyone mentions Homecoming Queen or any other of the few exceptions to the rule, rarely doesn't mean never.
yes but does beating excelebration warrant such a high mark is the question?
he wont beat much further if they race again even tho he was deemed to come on from his pipe opener in ireland.
hes beating dubawi gold here ffs.
excelebration is only a couple of pounds better than rio da la plata forgodsake. excelebration has achieved nothing. the form is sh!te, if frankel wasnt around the mile division would be awful!
he wont beat much further if they race again even tho he was deemed to come on from his pipe opener in ireland.
hes beating dubawi gold here ffs.
excelebration is only a couple of pounds better than rio da la plata forgodsake. excelebration has achieved nothing. the form is sh!te, if frankel wasnt around the mile division would be awful!
Forget the rating & just enjoy...Guineas from not great, but destroyed that field mid race...beat Dubawi Gold, but they were strung out like washing..hard to crab the horse, despite what it has beat.
Excelebration beats a 106 rated horse at curragh
beats a 118 rated horse at longchamp whilst rated 117
beats a 112 rated horse at newbury whilst rated 117
all 3 wins were against weak graded horses
how does he get high ratings against Frankel and they give him a 132 each time he runs 2nd to Frankel.
doesnt make sense, bias ratings, definately.
does that mean the runners up to excelebration at longchamp and newby should have their ratings re adjusted? im sure if those races were run again there would be any extra improvement.
weak crop of 3 year olds last year maybe?
beats a 118 rated horse at longchamp whilst rated 117
beats a 112 rated horse at newbury whilst rated 117
all 3 wins were against weak graded horses
how does he get high ratings against Frankel and they give him a 132 each time he runs 2nd to Frankel.
doesnt make sense, bias ratings, definately.
does that mean the runners up to excelebration at longchamp and newby should have their ratings re adjusted? im sure if those races were run again there would be any extra improvement.
weak crop of 3 year olds last year maybe?
This is my point entirely sooty. How can Frankel have achieved the 139 rating when all he is beating is second rate horses rated well below grp 1 standard and racing the same bloody distance. A one trick pony 1 mile specialist should never be compared in the same breath as a multiple classic, grp1 winner over 1 mile and 12 furlongs. It is insane.
Instead of keep guessing at how and why,e-mail the handicappers and ask.I am sure they will give you a detailed reply.
Here is a start.
IT'S quite a responsibility assessing a performance that might be the best seen on a racetrack anywhere in the world for 25 years, confesses Dominic Gardiner-Hill.
The internationalisation of racing has led to all the major racing nations (bar South America for the moment) being represented on the World Rankings Committee, so you have to be pretty damn sure you have seen something very special before making such a bold decision.
After hours of thought and several viewings of Saturday's JLT Lockinge Stakes at Newbury I'm as confident as I can be that Frankel fully deserves his new mark of 138 - a rating that places himabove such modern greats as Peintre Celebre and Generous (137 in 1991 and 1997 respectively), Sea The Stars (136 in 2009) and a heap of horses on 135, including Harbinger (2010), Montjeu and Daylami (both 1999).
In fact, since 1985, only Dancing Brave's 141 in the Arc of 1986 betters his figure and it has been openly stated that the level of the World Thoroughbred Rankings (or International Classifications as they were previously known) have dropped a few pounds since those days.
My rationale is clear. Last year Frankel beat Excelebration three times, twice by four lengths (in the Greenham and in the QEII) and yet on Saturday he had extended that superiority to five lengths. In last year's 2,000 Guineas Frankel beat Dubawi Gold by six lengths and in the QEII Richard Hannon's colt was a respectful seven and three-quarter lengths behind in fourth - on Saturday he was beaten a total of nine lengths into third.
A beating of either of those on their own could have left the Lockinge form open to question, but the fact is that there was three and three quarter lengths between Excelebration and Dubawi Gold at Ascot and four lengths between them at Newbury - suggesting they hadreplicated their form to the pound. Both were race fit and yet Frankel extended his advantage over them - to my mind that suggests this was his best ever performance and that has to be reflected in his rating. Hence 138!
The Wworld Rankings Committee has been criticised in the past for possibly overreacting to "one off" performances. There is no danger of that in the case of Frankel - his career record is now ten from ten, he has posted four 130+ performances to date (with the promise of more to come) and has won his Group 1 races by six lengths, three-quarters of a length, five lengths, four lengths and now five lengths.
The truth is that we don't really know how good this fellow is (and the same goes for Australian superstar Black Caviar) and it may well be that only the lack of world class opposition will stop him from breaking the 140 barrier - as such I feel we should take advantage of a fully justifiable form line that allows us to give him as much credit as possible.
One last aspect of Saturday's race that I feel is worth a mention. The plaudits rightly went the way of Messers Cecil and Queally, but spare a thought and applaud the part Ian Mongan played aboard pacemaker Bullet Train. Little went right last season in his efforts to help his illustrious stable companion, but he got it spot on at Newbury and Frankel got the lead he was seeking for much of last season - I believe this was a vital factor in Frankel putting up the performance he did. Conversely, quite what part Coolmore's pacemaker Windsor Palace was supposed to play in the contest I'm still trying to work out.
IT'S quite a responsibility assessing a performance that might be the best seen on a racetrack anywhere in the world for 25 years, confesses Dominic Gardiner-Hill.
The internationalisation of racing has led to all the major racing nations (bar South America for the moment) being represented on the World Rankings Committee, so you have to be pretty damn sure you have seen something very special before making such a bold decision.
After hours of thought and several viewings of Saturday's JLT Lockinge Stakes at Newbury I'm as confident as I can be that Frankel fully deserves his new mark of 138 - a rating that places himabove such modern greats as Peintre Celebre and Generous (137 in 1991 and 1997 respectively), Sea The Stars (136 in 2009) and a heap of horses on 135, including Harbinger (2010), Montjeu and Daylami (both 1999).
In fact, since 1985, only Dancing Brave's 141 in the Arc of 1986 betters his figure and it has been openly stated that the level of the World Thoroughbred Rankings (or International Classifications as they were previously known) have dropped a few pounds since those days.
My rationale is clear. Last year Frankel beat Excelebration three times, twice by four lengths (in the Greenham and in the QEII) and yet on Saturday he had extended that superiority to five lengths. In last year's 2,000 Guineas Frankel beat Dubawi Gold by six lengths and in the QEII Richard Hannon's colt was a respectful seven and three-quarter lengths behind in fourth - on Saturday he was beaten a total of nine lengths into third.
A beating of either of those on their own could have left the Lockinge form open to question, but the fact is that there was three and three quarter lengths between Excelebration and Dubawi Gold at Ascot and four lengths between them at Newbury - suggesting they hadreplicated their form to the pound. Both were race fit and yet Frankel extended his advantage over them - to my mind that suggests this was his best ever performance and that has to be reflected in his rating. Hence 138!
The Wworld Rankings Committee has been criticised in the past for possibly overreacting to "one off" performances. There is no danger of that in the case of Frankel - his career record is now ten from ten, he has posted four 130+ performances to date (with the promise of more to come) and has won his Group 1 races by six lengths, three-quarters of a length, five lengths, four lengths and now five lengths.
The truth is that we don't really know how good this fellow is (and the same goes for Australian superstar Black Caviar) and it may well be that only the lack of world class opposition will stop him from breaking the 140 barrier - as such I feel we should take advantage of a fully justifiable form line that allows us to give him as much credit as possible.
One last aspect of Saturday's race that I feel is worth a mention. The plaudits rightly went the way of Messers Cecil and Queally, but spare a thought and applaud the part Ian Mongan played aboard pacemaker Bullet Train. Little went right last season in his efforts to help his illustrious stable companion, but he got it spot on at Newbury and Frankel got the lead he was seeking for much of last season - I believe this was a vital factor in Frankel putting up the performance he did. Conversely, quite what part Coolmore's pacemaker Windsor Palace was supposed to play in the contest I'm still trying to work out.
right heres the point, he was rated through excelebration to which they have upped him a pound to what, is it 139?
now what we must do is assess how good excelebtration is.
hes a couple lengths better than rio da le plata.
i rest my case
now what we must do is assess how good excelebtration is.
hes a couple lengths better than rio da le plata.
i rest my case
138,someone has 139,whats a few pounds between friends.
Excelebration beat Rio De La Plata by a couple of lengths, not a short head as people on here seem to think.At a track/distance where wide margin wins are rare. It was fairly comfortable by my recollection. Still probably the weakest run of Excelebration's career since his debut. Why should he be rated on a literal reading of his weakest form?
if people looking to downgrade Frankel are going to use the literal interpretation of wining margins then they need to do the same for Sea The Stars , or else explain why it doesn't count in that case.
if people looking to downgrade Frankel are going to use the literal interpretation of wining margins then they need to do the same for Sea The Stars , or else explain why it doesn't count in that case.
I don't know about resting your case ilikewavingatbuses but I wish you would give it a rest regarding Rio De La Plata because basically you haven't even got a case.
You keep harping on about one piece of form when Excelebration beat Rio De La Plata by 1½L (Rajsaman another ½L back in 3rd) as if that's the only form out there. Well apart from the fact there was a thunderstorm on that day and they had to change the ground conditions to very soft, that would be like assessing Frankel on one race only when he beat Zoffany by ¾L......or should we measure the career of Sea The Stars when a well beaten 4th on that particular run by a winner that never won again that season?
Add to that when Frankel beat Canford Cliffs by 5L he had Rio De La Plata another 2½L back in 3rd and Rajsaman also another 2½L in 4th, meaning Frankel has beaten those two by 7½L and 10L and suddenly with a little less cherry picking the form between Frankel, Excelebration, Rio De La Plata and Rajsaman looks a lot more solid.
Bear in mind too that Frankel was usually beating Excelebration (a genuine Gr1 horse) by between 2¼-4L last season yet on Saturday did so by 5L despite making his seasonal debut when coming off an injury against race fit and current season race winning rivals, then to my eyes I'd say that was showing a level of improvement.
You keep harping on about one piece of form when Excelebration beat Rio De La Plata by 1½L (Rajsaman another ½L back in 3rd) as if that's the only form out there. Well apart from the fact there was a thunderstorm on that day and they had to change the ground conditions to very soft, that would be like assessing Frankel on one race only when he beat Zoffany by ¾L......or should we measure the career of Sea The Stars when a well beaten 4th on that particular run by a winner that never won again that season?
Add to that when Frankel beat Canford Cliffs by 5L he had Rio De La Plata another 2½L back in 3rd and Rajsaman also another 2½L in 4th, meaning Frankel has beaten those two by 7½L and 10L and suddenly with a little less cherry picking the form between Frankel, Excelebration, Rio De La Plata and Rajsaman looks a lot more solid.
Bear in mind too that Frankel was usually beating Excelebration (a genuine Gr1 horse) by between 2¼-4L last season yet on Saturday did so by 5L despite making his seasonal debut when coming off an injury against race fit and current season race winning rivals, then to my eyes I'd say that was showing a level of improvement.
i was joking about resting my case
u take everything literally lol.
im not assessing frankel, im assessing excelebration claiming his rating is a joke when he is less than 2L better than rio on form. and thats his best form race w/o frankel and look at rios rating. what else has he beaten? his german guineas 2nd has form figures that read 1/2309487-54
he beat beacon lodge by 6L lol beacon fecking lodge.
then he was all out to beat RIO
and all the other races hes been 2nd to frankel.
pmsl thats carp. the horse is average ffs.
u take everything literally lol.
im not assessing frankel, im assessing excelebration claiming his rating is a joke when he is less than 2L better than rio on form. and thats his best form race w/o frankel and look at rios rating. what else has he beaten? his german guineas 2nd has form figures that read 1/2309487-54
he beat beacon lodge by 6L
lol beacon fecking lodge.then he was all out to beat RIO
and all the other races hes been 2nd to frankel.
pmsl thats carp. the horse is average ffs.
Can't we just put Excelebration and Dubawi Gold up a bit and then just tell each other we're watching officially the best horse ever?
Except you're not joking ilikewavingatbuses as just shown again by repeating the same feeble point about Rio De la Plata.
You might be using the "I rest my case" in a flippant jokey way but I think it's fairly clear to anyone that you think you are making a significant point yet even when it's pointed out to you and staring you in the face you are not, you still repeat it anyway.......although I suppose you will come back now and say you were just joking or taking the p1ss.
So what if Excelebration beat Beacon Lodge by 6L? And you say I take everything literally. You can win by 6L riding all the way to the line or eased down and so the winning distance can be irrelevant and it's the style and ease of the win that matters. That race was 7f anyway (I wonder if you knew that?) and the winning distance could have been greater at a mile if they wanted to run to the line or less if eased down to coast in if the race was sewn up with a furlong to go. You also due to either not knowing or it not helping you views (and I know which one my money's on lol) failed to mention that Beacon Lodge was beaten 29L by Excelebration the last time they met.
Yet to show how pointless your isolating one line of form is, last time out Rio De la Plata was beaten 20L by Cityscape so taking that literally with a line of form of Rio De la Plata as a connection when 1½L behind Excelebration, using your logic you must be suggesting then that Cityscape would beat Excelebration by 18½L by comparison?
And seeing as though Cityscape was previously 2¾L behind Canford Cliffs and Frankel beat that one by 5L then surely that has to mean Frankel would beat Cityscape 7¾L......far too simplistic really eh?....Plus if you think Excelebration was "all out" to beat Rio De la Plata then I think this game isn't really for you. He gave the horse about 3 slaps in very soft going when ridden by Spancer for the first time doing his usual hold up trick regardless of circumstances, then had to make up a lot of ground when about 8L off the leader and 4L off Rio De la Plata and then just pushed him out to the line once getting on top.
Oh and by the way, Sea The Stars only beat Delegator 1½L in his guineas so again shall we judge STS's whole career based on that one isolated line of form and ignore everything else just as you are with Excelebration/Rio De la Plata?
You might be using the "I rest my case" in a flippant jokey way but I think it's fairly clear to anyone that you think you are making a significant point yet even when it's pointed out to you and staring you in the face you are not, you still repeat it anyway.......although I suppose you will come back now and say you were just joking or taking the p1ss.
So what if Excelebration beat Beacon Lodge by 6L? And you say I take everything literally. You can win by 6L riding all the way to the line or eased down and so the winning distance can be irrelevant and it's the style and ease of the win that matters. That race was 7f anyway (I wonder if you knew that?) and the winning distance could have been greater at a mile if they wanted to run to the line or less if eased down to coast in if the race was sewn up with a furlong to go. You also due to either not knowing or it not helping you views (and I know which one my money's on lol) failed to mention that Beacon Lodge was beaten 29L by Excelebration the last time they met.
Yet to show how pointless your isolating one line of form is, last time out Rio De la Plata was beaten 20L by Cityscape so taking that literally with a line of form of Rio De la Plata as a connection when 1½L behind Excelebration, using your logic you must be suggesting then that Cityscape would beat Excelebration by 18½L by comparison?
And seeing as though Cityscape was previously 2¾L behind Canford Cliffs and Frankel beat that one by 5L then surely that has to mean Frankel would beat Cityscape 7¾L......far too simplistic really eh?....Plus if you think Excelebration was "all out" to beat Rio De la Plata then I think this game isn't really for you. He gave the horse about 3 slaps in very soft going when ridden by Spancer for the first time doing his usual hold up trick regardless of circumstances, then had to make up a lot of ground when about 8L off the leader and 4L off Rio De la Plata and then just pushed him out to the line once getting on top.
Oh and by the way, Sea The Stars only beat Delegator 1½L in his guineas so again shall we judge STS's whole career based on that one isolated line of form and ignore everything else just as you are with Excelebration/Rio De la Plata?
IMA,I really enjoy your posts,keep it up.Ignore the knockers.
Cheers Triple-Trigger and I appreciate you saying that, although when I said Excelebration was ridden for the first time by Spancer, that was to be read in a Northern Irish accent. 
Stupid typos.
Stupid typos.
Excellebration being 2 lengths better than Rio De La Plata is ridic close to FACT at the mo isn't it tho?
Rio De La Plata's rating being 120 and Excelebration's 126?
Rio De La Plata's rating being 120 and Excelebration's 126?
put that rod away box fresh youre out of your dept mate
ima_amazed if u actually read my post u would see i mentioned his german guineas, i mentioned his beating of beacon lodge, do u want me to mention his reappearence in ireland too or something?
im asking u why is excelebration viewed as this outstanding foe of frankels given horses such as rock or gibraltar, mastercraftsman, rip van winkle have reached far greater heights. the reason i continue to put emphasis on RIO is because thats his HIGHEST LEVEL OF FORM w/o frankel, its kind of an important detail when discussing the horse. im happy to focus on his german guineas or beating of beacon lodge is u want.
TIMEFORM even said he'd improved throughout the season thus putting up his rating and the raising frankel accordingly.
so I'VE shown u why i think hes a VERY average g1 horse (once). u show me the good horses hes beaten that justify his rating in the races hes won, ta.
ima_amazed if u actually read my post u would see i mentioned his german guineas, i mentioned his beating of beacon lodge
, do u want me to mention his reappearence in ireland too or something? im asking u why is excelebration viewed as this outstanding foe of frankels given horses such as rock or gibraltar, mastercraftsman, rip van winkle have reached far greater heights. the reason i continue to put emphasis on RIO is because thats his HIGHEST LEVEL OF FORM w/o frankel, its kind of an important detail when discussing the horse. im happy to focus on his german guineas or beating of beacon lodge is u want
.TIMEFORM even said he'd improved throughout the season thus putting up his rating and the raising frankel accordingly.
so I'VE shown u why i think hes a VERY average g1 horse (once
). u show me the good horses hes beaten that justify his rating in the races hes won, ta.
i dunno if the game is for me ima but im pretty confident with my interpretations of racing. so if u think im no good, u prove how good u are?
ill be happy to humilate u if u like
ill be happy to humilate u if u like
you dont rate the horse, but you think you can rate frankel better than the experts.
of course i rate the horse (frankel). i said hes one of the greatest milers of all time. however i feel they are just itching to raise him for no reason. esp in relation to excelebration who hasnt proved anything other than the fact hes aleays going to be 2nd best to frankel. what has excelebration ACTUALLY achieved? 1 gr1 forgodsake.
i dont know who these 'experts' are but yes i am happy to wager my interpretation of a race against theirs. its horse racing ffs, these 'experts' are just like the rest of us...cant tip their hats. the who spoet is based on an opinion, NOT fact!
i dont know who these 'experts' are but yes i am happy to wager my interpretation of a race against theirs. its horse racing ffs, these 'experts' are just like the rest of us...cant tip their hats. the who spoet is based on an opinion, NOT fact!
The point is, you can call excelebration an average group 1 horse, i agree, but that doesn't detract from frankel being a great race horse, you could pick apart any great horse by taking any given piece of form in the book, although it isn't quantified in the ratings, we as watchers can hypothesize and by strictly interpreting frankel's ability through excelebrations proximity to him is simply too simplistic, frankels manner of victories suggests to me that he could double the winning distance between the two of them at will, if they chose too....what he did to a real top top notcher in CC took your breath away, it was all the more staggering because in CC we knew we had a horse that travels like a dream in his races against the likes ogoldikova, a real top class horse, but watch the race again and see how hughes has has to start niggling at the horse as they turn in and how he simply gets the life squeezed out of him, it was a brutal exhibition from frankel.
My first bet (as an under age punter) was on a horse called Honey End, so the Golden oldies on here will know how long ago that was. Since then i've seen many of the 'greats' at Ascot, Goodwood, Newmarket and Longchamp to name drop just a few tracks. In my opinion Frankel is up there with the very best of them (too early to call him THE best) and certainly deserves his rating even a point or 2 of it is based on visual impression as opposed to actual form. I can't understand the negativity on BF forums towards the horse. Anyone with half a racing brain must concede that he really is very special and there's almost certainly more to come. Do we knock the form of Brigadier G because he only just won the St James Palace or because Nijinsky only won his debut by 1/2L, Sea Bird won his by a short head or because STS was beaten on his. Of course not. Frankel will never be beaten at a mile, in fact I think he will retire unbeaten after 3, maybe 4 more races over 10f. I'm sure if he entered and won the boat race, the critics on here would say .... yeah, but he used 2 oars to help him 
Whatever his subjective rating is, he is a once in a generation horse. Most genuine people should be able to agree with that. The extraordinary thing is that he hasn't reached his full potential yet.
Would have to agree in part with the OP. Firstly, last season's crop of 3yos were poor (1m+ British), and upto now, this year's mob are no better.
I gave up on Official ratings years ago, when Masterminded was given 186 ims for his CC win at Cheltenham. Frankel is a good horse, but I feel his plaudits are not totally worth it. Looking at his last 5 group 1 wins;
2000g- 7th fastest time in last 10 years
St James- 4th fastest
Sussex- 5th fastest
QE2- 5th fastest
Lockinge- 7th fastest.
Obviously, the going was different for some races in the past, but ims, Frankel has yet to beat a course record. Canford Cliffs was the best horse Frankel has beaten, but he was injured in the race, thus veering off a straight line and losing by 5 lengths giving 5lb.
This year, Frankel will be asked to do 2 things he's not done before. Give weight and run over a longer trip. If this years 3yos are no good, weight wont be a problem, but 10f, based on his dam, certainly will be. May get away with it around courses with a short homerun- Ascot etc, but York will be a problem, especially if against Cirrus des aigles, So You Think, and even possibly Camelot.
He cannot be rated seriously high, until he wins a group 1 over 10f, instead of beating the same old faces over a mile.
fwiw, Excellebration is a soft ground 7f specialist. Prix la foret is his for the taking.
I gave up on Official ratings years ago, when Masterminded was given 186 ims for his CC win at Cheltenham. Frankel is a good horse, but I feel his plaudits are not totally worth it. Looking at his last 5 group 1 wins;
2000g- 7th fastest time in last 10 years
St James- 4th fastest
Sussex- 5th fastest
QE2- 5th fastest
Lockinge- 7th fastest.
Obviously, the going was different for some races in the past, but ims, Frankel has yet to beat a course record. Canford Cliffs was the best horse Frankel has beaten, but he was injured in the race, thus veering off a straight line and losing by 5 lengths giving 5lb.
This year, Frankel will be asked to do 2 things he's not done before. Give weight and run over a longer trip. If this years 3yos are no good, weight wont be a problem, but 10f, based on his dam, certainly will be. May get away with it around courses with a short homerun- Ascot etc, but York will be a problem, especially if against Cirrus des aigles, So You Think, and even possibly Camelot.
He cannot be rated seriously high, until he wins a group 1 over 10f, instead of beating the same old faces over a mile.
fwiw, Excellebration is a soft ground 7f specialist. Prix la foret is his for the taking.
Yeah I saw you mention the German guineas ilikewavingatbuses and you totally rubbished it and I saw too you mentioned Beacon Lodge once (but didn't know about the other time?) and yeah you could have mentioned Excelebration's seasonal debut and while you were at it could have mentioned Beacon Lodge being 29L farther back but then that doesn't really suit your argument does it?
The reason Excelebration is viewed as "an outstanding foe of Frankel's" is because that's exactly what the horse is to anyone with even slight race reading knowledge. The horse's from figures are 41121311212 with the likelihood that those 2s would be 1s without Frankel and would have 9 wins from 11 starts and other than the debut 4th, the 3rd was behind Frankel too. Add to that its SPs have been 11/4F, 4/6F, 5/6F, 21/10F, 5/4F, 11/8F and 2/7F but when up against Frankel have been 25/1, 10/1, 6/1 and 100/30 and that tells you all you need to know.
Do you have to win a series of Gr1s to be considered anything other than average? The only thing stopping Excelebration from having done that anyway and something you seem to struggle to comprehend is that horse called Frankel. Excelebration was 3½L clear of Immortal Verse in the QEll and that horse went into that race off the back of a hat trick including the last two being Gr1s, with the last being a 1L defeat of Goldikova and yet Excelebration pulled well away from Immortal Verse and take Excelebration out and Frankel was 7½L in front of Immortal Verse. I also don't recall Rock of Gibraltar, Mastercraftsman, Rip van Winkle winning too many one mile Gr1s by 4-5L lengths either as Frankel consistently has.
Either you or I could be the best or worst tipster in the world ilikewavingatbuses but at the risk of stating the obvious, you tip a horse before a race is run and so has little bearing on how a person interprets a race after the result is know but part from anything else, the specific point you continually harp on about is Rio De La Plata's proximity to Excelebration in one race only and totally ignore every other circumstance of that race.
Oh and the only way you would ever make me feel humiliated would be if you said something I agreed with.
The reason Excelebration is viewed as "an outstanding foe of Frankel's" is because that's exactly what the horse is to anyone with even slight race reading knowledge. The horse's from figures are 41121311212 with the likelihood that those 2s would be 1s without Frankel and would have 9 wins from 11 starts and other than the debut 4th, the 3rd was behind Frankel too. Add to that its SPs have been 11/4F, 4/6F, 5/6F, 21/10F, 5/4F, 11/8F and 2/7F but when up against Frankel have been 25/1, 10/1, 6/1 and 100/30 and that tells you all you need to know.
Do you have to win a series of Gr1s to be considered anything other than average? The only thing stopping Excelebration from having done that anyway and something you seem to struggle to comprehend is that horse called Frankel. Excelebration was 3½L clear of Immortal Verse in the QEll and that horse went into that race off the back of a hat trick including the last two being Gr1s, with the last being a 1L defeat of Goldikova and yet Excelebration pulled well away from Immortal Verse and take Excelebration out and Frankel was 7½L in front of Immortal Verse. I also don't recall Rock of Gibraltar, Mastercraftsman, Rip van Winkle winning too many one mile Gr1s by 4-5L lengths either as Frankel consistently has.
Either you or I could be the best or worst tipster in the world ilikewavingatbuses but at the risk of stating the obvious, you tip a horse before a race is run and so has little bearing on how a person interprets a race after the result is know but part from anything else, the specific point you continually harp on about is Rio De La Plata's proximity to Excelebration in one race only and totally ignore every other circumstance of that race.
Oh and the only way you would ever make me feel humiliated would be if you said something I agreed with.
He cannot be rated seriously high, until he wins a group 1 over 10f
Why should 10f be considered the epitome of greatness. Goldikova and Miesque may have something to say about this.
Why should 10f be considered the epitome of greatness. Goldikova and Miesque may have something to say about this.
The further you race the bigger the winning distance can become,therefore a bigger rating.I remember when Celtic swing won the RP trophy,Saville said he wanted him to be top rated 2yr old,so he was pushed to the limit.
Both Goldi and Miesque won group 1s in 3 different countries at 7/8/9f. Upto now Frankel has group 1s in 7/8f wins in 1 country. Both Goldi and Miesque were campaigned vigorously and sportingly, as yet, Frankel has not, hense the comment.
Certainly not slating the horse, but until he wins and gives weight over 10f or even better over 6f, then imo, he cannot be ranked a great.
Certainly not slating the horse, but until he wins and gives weight over 10f or even better over 6f, then imo, he cannot be ranked a great.
http://youtu.be/L3ddA1oqVIE?t=1m9s There you go,enjoy.
ilikewavingatbuses
24 May 12 18:58 Joined: 06 Jun 09 | Topic/replies: 24,901 | Blogger: ilikewavingatbuses's blog
i dunno if the game is for me ima but im pretty confident with my interpretations of racing. so if u think im no good, u prove how good u are?
ill be happy to humilate u if u like
is this chap for real?happy to humilate him??
There's only one clown been humiliated here im afraid.
time to put your shovel down buses.
24 May 12 18:58 Joined: 06 Jun 09 | Topic/replies: 24,901 | Blogger: ilikewavingatbuses's blog
i dunno if the game is for me ima but im pretty confident with my interpretations of racing. so if u think im no good, u prove how good u are?
ill be happy to humilate u if u like
is this chap for real?happy to humilate him??
There's only one clown been humiliated here im afraid.
time to put your shovel down buses.
The only thing injured regarding Canford Cliffs when beaten by Frankel was his connections pride and there never was any injury to use as an excuse.
I've even read on here the horse finished lame which was rubbish and did Hughes pull the horse up or dismount coming back in? It's a bridle horse and has form for hanging when under pressure and has done so twice before when beaten and Richard Hannon Sr might well be right in before the race saying it's the best he's trained in 40 years but Henry Cecil would probably say the same about Frankel.
The headlines regarding the "injury" were a bit vague and along the lines of Retired Canford Cliffs was at risk of a serious leg injury and Bone scan revealed a shadow on horse's joint, Connections feared he might be at risk of a serious leg injury and even direct quotes were "a bit of a shadow on the joint running into the pastern", according to his trainer, Richard Hannon "He's a perfectly sound horse and I could very nearly go on training him," Hannon explained, "but I don't want to do the horse any damage, as he's done us so proud" or Such a shadow could turn into "something nasty", Hannon said, naming a fracture as one of the possibilities. "If we carried on, we would have to give him box rest and, with a big horse like him, he'd just get bigger and heavier. Doing that might just cause him a bad injury and that would break everybody's heart. He now goes off to stud sound" and significantly Hannon did not claim Canford Cliffs had been lame at any point and his assistant, Richard Hannon Jr, described it as "the startings of an injury."
Also what makes Excelebration any more a 7f soft ground horse than a mile firm or good ground horse? Just because a horse can win under one set of circumstances doesn't mean that's its preference as it's run only 3 times in 11 races at 7f and only 3 times on soft and won only twice when getting both. Is that how you decide it's a 7f soft ground horse despite running its first 4 races on good to firm and having more wins on good to firm and as many wins at a mile as at 7f, with more wins not at 7f as at that trip........plus arguably the horse's best runs have been when beaten at a mile on good ground and it's not the distance or ground betting Excelebration it's Frankel.
I've even read on here the horse finished lame which was rubbish and did Hughes pull the horse up or dismount coming back in? It's a bridle horse and has form for hanging when under pressure and has done so twice before when beaten and Richard Hannon Sr might well be right in before the race saying it's the best he's trained in 40 years but Henry Cecil would probably say the same about Frankel.
The headlines regarding the "injury" were a bit vague and along the lines of Retired Canford Cliffs was at risk of a serious leg injury and Bone scan revealed a shadow on horse's joint, Connections feared he might be at risk of a serious leg injury and even direct quotes were "a bit of a shadow on the joint running into the pastern", according to his trainer, Richard Hannon "He's a perfectly sound horse and I could very nearly go on training him," Hannon explained, "but I don't want to do the horse any damage, as he's done us so proud" or Such a shadow could turn into "something nasty", Hannon said, naming a fracture as one of the possibilities. "If we carried on, we would have to give him box rest and, with a big horse like him, he'd just get bigger and heavier. Doing that might just cause him a bad injury and that would break everybody's heart. He now goes off to stud sound" and significantly Hannon did not claim Canford Cliffs had been lame at any point and his assistant, Richard Hannon Jr, described it as "the startings of an injury."
Also what makes Excelebration any more a 7f soft ground horse than a mile firm or good ground horse? Just because a horse can win under one set of circumstances doesn't mean that's its preference as it's run only 3 times in 11 races at 7f and only 3 times on soft and won only twice when getting both. Is that how you decide it's a 7f soft ground horse despite running its first 4 races on good to firm and having more wins on good to firm and as many wins at a mile as at 7f, with more wins not at 7f as at that trip........plus arguably the horse's best runs have been when beaten at a mile on good ground and it's not the distance or ground betting Excelebration it's Frankel.
BoxFresh
24 May 12 20:56
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ilikewavingatbuses
24 May 12 18:58 Joined: 06 Jun 09 | Topic/replies: 24,901 | Blogger: ilikewavingatbuses's blog
i dunno if the game is for me ima but im pretty confident with my interpretations of racing. so if u think im no good, u prove how good u are?
ill be happy to humilate u if u like
is this chap for real?happy to humilate him??LaughLaugh
There's only one clown been humiliated here im afraid.
time to put your shovel down buses.
boxfresh what was your other forum name or are u knew here
had frankel not been around, it doesnt automatically guarantee excel wouldve won those races, the races would be entirely different contests.
funny enough i touched on that subject in another post, we are talking about completely diff races if frankel isnt there. id agree excelebration is prob best of the rest but judging by his individual runs w/o frankel not by much. yet tf wou;d prob have him on fr\nkels now rating and dubawi gold on excels now rating, go figure.
24 May 12 20:56
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ilikewavingatbuses
24 May 12 18:58 Joined: 06 Jun 09 | Topic/replies: 24,901 | Blogger: ilikewavingatbuses's blog
i dunno if the game is for me ima but im pretty confident with my interpretations of racing. so if u think im no good, u prove how good u are?
ill be happy to humilate u if u like
is this chap for real?happy to humilate him??LaughLaugh
There's only one clown been humiliated here im afraid.
time to put your shovel down buses.
boxfresh what was your other forum name or are u knew here
had frankel not been around, it doesnt automatically guarantee excel wouldve won those races, the races would be entirely different contests.
funny enough i touched on that subject in another post, we are talking about completely diff races if frankel isnt there. id agree excelebration is prob best of the rest but judging by his individual runs w/o frankel not by much. yet tf wou;d prob have him on fr\nkels now rating and dubawi gold on excels now rating, go figure.
So tell me. This year what had excelebration achieved prior to the showdown with Frankel? Tell me, what had Dubawi gold achieved this year prior to the showdown with Frankel?
Lets break it down. Excelebration 1 run. group 3, won beating croisultan (official rating 106) by just over 3 lengths. This should have put excelebrations rating at around 111?
Dubawi gold. 2 runs. Run 1. Beaten 18 lengths by penitent (rated 108) in a group 2 --- Dubawi gold rating should be what 102 max?
Run 2. Beaten out of sight by horses such as derbaas and master of hounds (rated 115) ------ Dubawi gold rating should be what 106 max?
So to take a line through these. Excelebration improves to 114 after comeback run and thus frankel should receive a rating of around the 124 mark!
So to next take a line through Dubawi gold. Improves to 110 after 2 races, so Frankels rating should be what 124?
So based on all known form this year Frankel should be rated in the 124 category.
Lets break it down. Excelebration 1 run. group 3, won beating croisultan (official rating 106) by just over 3 lengths. This should have put excelebrations rating at around 111?
Dubawi gold. 2 runs. Run 1. Beaten 18 lengths by penitent (rated 108) in a group 2 --- Dubawi gold rating should be what 102 max?
Run 2. Beaten out of sight by horses such as derbaas and master of hounds (rated 115) ------ Dubawi gold rating should be what 106 max?
So to take a line through these. Excelebration improves to 114 after comeback run and thus frankel should receive a rating of around the 124 mark!
So to next take a line through Dubawi gold. Improves to 110 after 2 races, so Frankels rating should be what 124?
So based on all known form this year Frankel should be rated in the 124 category.
have u not looked thru the form of the horses excelebration is beating by 4/5 L?
i mention the german guineas because the lineup wouldnt look out of place in a lingfield seller..literally!
i mention the german guineas because the lineup wouldnt look out of place in a lingfield seller..literally!
So based on all known form this year Frankel should be rated in the 124 category.
So you're suggesting that Frankel would beat Strong Suit by a head !
So you're suggesting that Frankel would beat Strong Suit by a head !
Buses just cannot comprehend how any horse could possibly be better than Sea the stars.
it's just not possible in his little bubble.
it's just not possible in his little bubble.
Well, strong suit was the preferred Hannon runner!
Find fault in the literal assessments of my ratings. After all, that's what this whole topic is about.
Find fault in the literal assessments of my ratings. After all, that's what this whole topic is about.
boxfresh i as much as admitted that frankel would more than not beat sea the stars over a mile YDC.
seriously do u even read the posts. im a frankel fan, i love him too like everyone else.
but i like to debate the merits of excelebrations rating instead of accepting it like a sheep. all u do is is hand out abuse and you cant even do that properly ffs.
go asleep
seriously do u even read the posts. im a frankel fan, i love him too like everyone else.
but i like to debate the merits of excelebrations rating instead of accepting it like a sheep. all u do is is hand out abuse and you cant even do that properly ffs.
go asleep
BoxFresh
24 May 12 21:34
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Buses just cannot comprehend how any horse could possibly be better than Sea the stars.
it's just not possible in his little bubble.
likewavingatbuses
24 May 12 21:42
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boxfresh i as much as admitted that frankel would more than not beat sea the stars over a mile YDC.
BoxFresh
24 May 12 21:43
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Seething.
[x]pleasing[x] = nothing left in the tank
YDC
24 May 12 21:34
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Buses just cannot comprehend how any horse could possibly be better than Sea the stars.
it's just not possible in his little bubble.
likewavingatbuses
24 May 12 21:42
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boxfresh i as much as admitted that frankel would more than not beat sea the stars over a mile YDC.
BoxFresh
24 May 12 21:43
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Seething.
[x]pleasing[x] = nothing left in the tank
YDC
WHOA hes getting weaker!!
i can see steam coming out of those big ears, calm down mate
i can see steam coming out of those big ears, calm down mate
im only taking the p!ss with u BF.
dont cry ffs.
dont cry ffs.
Ilwab you are wasting your time trying to explain why the ratings are wrong and why those that formulate them have no more of a clue than someone who does their own ratings for a Southwell Seller.
He has been rated until now on what people want others to believe he might be in future,not on actual achievement.
He has been rated until now on what people want others to believe he might be in future,not on actual achievement.
Compare. Frankel wins 1 race against these runners who fill the places and receives a rating of 139!
Excelebration 1 run. group 3, won beating croisultan (official rating 106) by just over 3 lengths.
Dubawi gold. 2 runs. Run 1. Beaten 18 lengths by penitent (rated 108) in a group 2
Run 2. Beaten out of sight by horses such as derbaas and master of hounds (rated 115)
Sea the stars wins 2000 guineas, Derby, Eclipse, Irish champion and the grand finale the Arc! In the Arc he receives a rating of 136 and beats horses of this calibre
9 individual group 1 winners including unbeaten stacelita, dar rei me, fame and glory, st ledger, breeders cup and king george winner conduit, vision detat, cavalryman and youmzain
Bear in mind that many of the horses running in the Arc were primed to the hilt with it being their one main goal for the season and Sea the stars came from 9th to 3 lengths up in under a furlong, winning eased up!
Does this scenario seam likely?
Excelebration 1 run. group 3, won beating croisultan (official rating 106) by just over 3 lengths.
Dubawi gold. 2 runs. Run 1. Beaten 18 lengths by penitent (rated 108) in a group 2
Run 2. Beaten out of sight by horses such as derbaas and master of hounds (rated 115)
Sea the stars wins 2000 guineas, Derby, Eclipse, Irish champion and the grand finale the Arc! In the Arc he receives a rating of 136 and beats horses of this calibre
9 individual group 1 winners including unbeaten stacelita, dar rei me, fame and glory, st ledger, breeders cup and king george winner conduit, vision detat, cavalryman and youmzain
Bear in mind that many of the horses running in the Arc were primed to the hilt with it being their one main goal for the season and Sea the stars came from 9th to 3 lengths up in under a furlong, winning eased up!
Does this scenario seam likely?
Far too much over simplification there.
Is it compulsory to mark up or down a horse based on every run? If Frankel was rated 135 after beating Excelebration by 4L in the QEll but then went on to beat the same horse hard held only by 1L in the Lockinge then should his rating be dropped? As that didn't happen and Frankel won by farther than in the QEll despite coming back off an injury and on seasonal debut against a race fit winning rival (sure I've typed this before) then it's not unreasonable to think Frankel might have improved once again.
Again far too simplistic a view to also say Excelebration beat a 106 rated horse by 3L and to take that form literally when it did so in a canter, so is anyone arguing the horse should have had its rating dropped based on that? The reason it stayed the same and also did after the latest beating by Frankel are for the reasons listed above but even without injury scares and seasonal debuts, the winning distance was still greater.
I also wouldn't read too much into Dubawi Gold's run behind Penitent either, seeing as that was run on heavy ground and Dubawi Gold has no form on that and once again seems like an isolated piece of form being taken far too literally, as the horse was eased when beaten with around a furlong to go and Famous Name ran no sort of race that day either. That's not to say Dubawi Gold is a world beater by any stretch of the imagination but a runner up in a couple of guineas isn't as bad as that run suggests or else taking that form literally Frankel finished 9L ahead of DG last time yet Penitent was 18L ahead but I'm hoping nobody is suggesting that means Penitent would beat Frankel by 9L.
And asking ilikewavingatbuses have we not looked at the form of the horses Excelebration was beating seems a bit of a daft question when I've already addressed that often enough and even mention Immortal Verse and the Goldikova and therefore Canford Cliffs tie in form with Excelebration. Incidentally up until the last meeting Excelebration generally finished closer to Frankel that Canford Cliffs did and although that was once only, I'm still not swallowing the excuses and everything was ideal for CC if good enough so the fact Frankel last time increased his winning distance over Excelebration to the same as he beat CC seems to also suggest improvement and therefore a rise in Frankel's rating figure.
Is it compulsory to mark up or down a horse based on every run? If Frankel was rated 135 after beating Excelebration by 4L in the QEll but then went on to beat the same horse hard held only by 1L in the Lockinge then should his rating be dropped? As that didn't happen and Frankel won by farther than in the QEll despite coming back off an injury and on seasonal debut against a race fit winning rival (sure I've typed this before) then it's not unreasonable to think Frankel might have improved once again.
Again far too simplistic a view to also say Excelebration beat a 106 rated horse by 3L and to take that form literally when it did so in a canter, so is anyone arguing the horse should have had its rating dropped based on that? The reason it stayed the same and also did after the latest beating by Frankel are for the reasons listed above but even without injury scares and seasonal debuts, the winning distance was still greater.
I also wouldn't read too much into Dubawi Gold's run behind Penitent either, seeing as that was run on heavy ground and Dubawi Gold has no form on that and once again seems like an isolated piece of form being taken far too literally, as the horse was eased when beaten with around a furlong to go and Famous Name ran no sort of race that day either. That's not to say Dubawi Gold is a world beater by any stretch of the imagination but a runner up in a couple of guineas isn't as bad as that run suggests or else taking that form literally Frankel finished 9L ahead of DG last time yet Penitent was 18L ahead but I'm hoping nobody is suggesting that means Penitent would beat Frankel by 9L.
And asking ilikewavingatbuses have we not looked at the form of the horses Excelebration was beating seems a bit of a daft question when I've already addressed that often enough and even mention Immortal Verse and the Goldikova and therefore Canford Cliffs tie in form with Excelebration. Incidentally up until the last meeting Excelebration generally finished closer to Frankel that Canford Cliffs did and although that was once only, I'm still not swallowing the excuses and everything was ideal for CC if good enough so the fact Frankel last time increased his winning distance over Excelebration to the same as he beat CC seems to also suggest improvement and therefore a rise in Frankel's rating figure.
You really do come across as very confused about ratings etc.....Frankel has plenty left in the tank
It was admitted in a few quarters including the official handicapper that STS would have been given a higher rating had he won by farther.That is how brainless those who formulate the ratings are,they do not have the common sense to believe what everyone else can see.
Ditto all those lauding Frankel as the greatest ever,he may well be eventually but saying he is based on achievement to date suggests you need to get out more,preferably to a racecourse.hth
Ditto all those lauding Frankel as the greatest ever,he may well be eventually but saying he is based on achievement to date suggests you need to get out more,preferably to a racecourse.hth
Its like talking to the thickest people in the world. None so blind as those that cannot see!
ima_mazed66 your missing what ilikewavingatbuses and denathorn are saying, i will high light for you to read slowly over and over again and i will give the following an example.
"how does a 117 rated horse in all his group wins become over night a few pounds short of Black Caviar because he ran 2nd to frankel?"
breeding of excelebration suggests he is either a sprinter or a 7f horse, either way, last years 3 year olds were a very weak crop it seems.
"how does a 117 rated horse in all his group wins become over night a few pounds short of Black Caviar because he ran 2nd to frankel?"
breeding of excelebration suggests he is either a sprinter or a 7f horse, either way, last years 3 year olds were a very weak crop it seems.
May 24, 2012 -- 10:02PM, denathorn wrote:
Compare. Frankel wins 1 race against these runners who fill the places and receives a rating of 139!Excelebration 1 run. group 3, won beating croisultan (official rating 106) by just over 3 lengths. Dubawi gold. 2 runs. Run 1. Beaten 18 lengths by penitent (rated 108) in a group 2 Run 2. Beaten out of sight by horses such as derbaas and master of hounds (rated 115)Sea the stars wins 2000 guineas, Derby, Eclipse, Irish champion and the grand finale the Arc! In the Arc he receives a rating of 136 and beats horses of this calibre9 individual group 1 winners including unbeaten stacelita, dar rei me, fame and glory, st ledger, breeders cup and king george winner conduit, vision detat, cavalryman and youmzainBear in mind that many of the horses running in the Arc were primed to the hilt with it being their one main goal for the season and Sea the stars came from 9th to 3 lengths up in under a furlong, winning eased up! Does this scenario seam likely?
Denathorn, it seems then you genuinely believe a 4YO horse is rated soley on what he has done at 4 ( ) as you keep going on about what these horses have done this year
This season has just started . Every 4YO in training is rated on what they did as a 3YO.There is then a slight adjustment based on their 1st run at 4 .The Handicapper does not just forget about 2011 and start from scratch, rather 2011 is the main basis of the rating.
You give Excelebration 5lb over Croisultan for a 3 and a half length win over 7 furlongs (you go 111-106) when 2lb per length is more like the norm handicappers use at that distance. So that would make it more like 113
You also fail to appreciate , , that as a Group 1 horse, Excelebration was carrying a 7lb penalty, so you will need to add 7 to the rating you worked out from the Group 3 in Ireland.
So even by your own logic Excelebration ran to 120 and this of course assumes both Excelebration and Croisultan were giving their all, when the reality was Excelebration won in an absolute canter while Croisultan was fighting for places.
Excelebration is very clearly a mid 120s more like high 120s horse , other evidence as Imamazed says , beating Immortal Verse et al, and Frankel is plainly 10lb or more superior to Excelebration .
The rating of Frankel at 135+ up towards 140 is as solid as it gets .Incredible that we are into page 3 of a thread arguing about it.
So many on here have not a clue how horses are rated.Ask them,as i have to put up their own you get silence.
Don't try to be clever sootyfive, there's a knack to it and forgive me if I don't take any lessons from someone who out of a race between 2 million sperm ended up with you as the fastest. 
Disagreeing with someone else doesn't mean you don't understand the point being made (but you would probably disagree with that due to not understanding) and can a horse only go up in the ratings for winning a race? Excelebration's 117 might well be for a win but are you seriously saying that despite being 4L behind Frankel in the QEll but 3½L ahead of Immortal Verse that the horse should have stayed on 117 and on the same mark as when it won off that? That's not even taking into account it won a Gr1 between those 2 runs but it also won by 3L on this season's debut and is that win in a Gr3 more credible than finishing 2nd in a Gr1 just because one is a win and the other a defeat?
Whatever Excelebration's breeding does or doesn't suggest, the fact remains the horse has won at a mile on soft ground in the German 2000 going away at the finish and won in France on very soft going and coming from off the pace running all the way to the line and a mile on those ground conditions would be even harder for a true sprinter to do that. It's not even as if Excelebration led for 6-7f and tied up when being beaten by Frankel anyway as Frankel has done it from the front in beating him and Excelebration has still tended to beat the others going away too. You also have to note that Frankel beat Excelebration by 4L in the Greenham which is 7f and so if he really was a sprinter or 7f horse it didn't seem to make much difference anyway.
Disagreeing with someone else doesn't mean you don't understand the point being made (but you would probably disagree with that due to not understanding) and can a horse only go up in the ratings for winning a race? Excelebration's 117 might well be for a win but are you seriously saying that despite being 4L behind Frankel in the QEll but 3½L ahead of Immortal Verse that the horse should have stayed on 117 and on the same mark as when it won off that? That's not even taking into account it won a Gr1 between those 2 runs but it also won by 3L on this season's debut and is that win in a Gr3 more credible than finishing 2nd in a Gr1 just because one is a win and the other a defeat?
Whatever Excelebration's breeding does or doesn't suggest, the fact remains the horse has won at a mile on soft ground in the German 2000 going away at the finish and won in France on very soft going and coming from off the pace running all the way to the line and a mile on those ground conditions would be even harder for a true sprinter to do that. It's not even as if Excelebration led for 6-7f and tied up when being beaten by Frankel anyway as Frankel has done it from the front in beating him and Excelebration has still tended to beat the others going away too. You also have to note that Frankel beat Excelebration by 4L in the Greenham which is 7f and so if he really was a sprinter or 7f horse it didn't seem to make much difference anyway.
Don't try to be clever sootyfive, there's a knack to it and forgive me if I don't take any lessons from someone who out of a race between 2 million sperm ended up with you as the fastest. He has tried and failed many times to try and be clever.It never works.
I realize that for the sake of the facts and figures we need to express the quality of excelebration but in appreciating how special frankel is to the eye and to the strong impression he gives in the manner of his runs we really don't need to justify him through other runners against him, not at the moment anyway, in the races he has before him he will render what we've all been discussing on here so far, redundant, imo anyway,what we've seen so far if i can draw an analogy from the olympics, is a bit like the heats of the 100 metres where bolt wins easing down and it's being called into question the proximity of the other runners, what i think we're seeing at the moment from frankel, a horse with stacks left that will be running his final at york in august in the juddmonte.
Exactly,people don't look at the horse,he is a brilliant mover,a stride the like of which i have never seen.The surface has only been scratched with this horse.There is so much more.
yes, the fact that we are picking apart the nuts and bolts is a bit of an insult to the horse, there's no need for it at all, leave that to when he's finished, as trig says we're just scratching the surface so far this year, how good excelebration might be in the frankel story as a whole is not worth tuppence.
The ultimate irony is that being by Galileo that Frankel is arguably running at distances that maybe aren't his best and that his all round class still allows him to win the races that he has.
I know these things aren't an exact science but his full brother Noble Mission made its racecourse debut as a 2YO at a mile and has never raced shorter than that whereas Frankel also raced at 7f as a 2YO and Noble Mission was already up to 10f in only its 3rd start when winning and seemed to get a little outpaced next time looking booked for 4th and then ran on again strongly to get 2nd when giving 5lbs to the winner. Even Frankel's half brother Bullet Train (sire Saddler's Wells being Galileo's sire too) has only won twice and at trips of a mile on 2YO debut and needed every yard to get up to win by a short head and its only other win was at 11f for the Lingfield Derby Trial and then ran in the Derby itself, so you can see where they thought it was best suited distance wise.
I know these things aren't an exact science but his full brother Noble Mission made its racecourse debut as a 2YO at a mile and has never raced shorter than that whereas Frankel also raced at 7f as a 2YO and Noble Mission was already up to 10f in only its 3rd start when winning and seemed to get a little outpaced next time looking booked for 4th and then ran on again strongly to get 2nd when giving 5lbs to the winner. Even Frankel's half brother Bullet Train (sire Saddler's Wells being Galileo's sire too) has only won twice and at trips of a mile on 2YO debut and needed every yard to get up to win by a short head and its only other win was at 11f for the Lingfield Derby Trial and then ran in the Derby itself, so you can see where they thought it was best suited distance wise.
Do you not think were it not for its obvious problems settling it would have ran in the derby last year ?
this is true. it makes the fact he has not gone up in trip already even more bewildering. they are so afraid of losing with this horse,crazy.just look at the comments on this thread, posters worrying over whether going lefthanded around a bend will affect the horse.when by this stage he should be retired (thankfully hes not) having won last years champion stakes or eclipse of juddmonte or all 3 etc. instead they were too worried about him staying so ran him over a mile, again, and again, and again, and again, u get the picture.
@hello
BG would also have been unbeaten had he stayed over a mile his entire life, thankfully he had connections with a bit of ambition.
BG would also have been unbeaten had he stayed over a mile his entire life, thankfully he had connections with a bit of ambition.
I don't think that they are concerned one bit about him staying, it's just that with him staying in training, there is no need to do everything in one year.....anyway they had midday and twice over carving up the juddmonte last year didn't they and workforce went close in the eclipse.
Or you can see it as it is , i feel under any other owner or trainer frankel would have been upped in trip last year and retired , sucsessfully or not is anyones guess .
However under the handling of henry the horse is both undefeated and looks to be rid of the mental attitude that threatened its carteer at one point , so now we have a frankel racing at 4 with all options open
The pace frankel went off at in the guineas could not be sustained to victory over a further 4 furlongs , if i owned frankel my biggest fear would be the return of its refusal to settle , they must be more confident now but not 100% sure , after all goes well in the QA expect a rise in trip
However under the handling of henry the horse is both undefeated and looks to be rid of the mental attitude that threatened its carteer at one point , so now we have a frankel racing at 4 with all options open
The pace frankel went off at in the guineas could not be sustained to victory over a further 4 furlongs , if i owned frankel my biggest fear would be the return of its refusal to settle , they must be more confident now but not 100% sure , after all goes well in the QA expect a rise in trip
@ duffy
they are definitely concerned about him staying i reckon, if they werent they wouldve raced last year over further. had he won over a mile last year i dont think we would have seen him this year to be honest.
they are definitely concerned about him staying i reckon, if they werent they wouldve raced last year over further. had he won over a mile last year i dont think we would have seen him this year to be honest.
helo, good point, he settles much better now doesn't he and as you suggest, running over further last year with that tendency to over race would have been problematic to say the least, even for him.
i don't think he will run in the eclipse, it's too soon, the juddmonte which is after all khalid abdullahs own race will be his debut run over 10f, that whopping long straight for him to power up will be something else i reckon.
There was more though than just Frankel to consider as to why he never went farther that a mile last season.
Visually the guineas was impressive but far too much was made about leading all the way as if that was how the horse had won all of its other races when in fact it was about the only time it had been the case and it was generally held up and not hitting the front until around 2-3f out usually. Winning that way over a mile doesn't mean that's how he would have been ridden if going for the Derby though but the main problem was the owner/trainer already thought they had their Derby horse in World Domination until that one flopped in the Dante and you can't go into the Derby with Frankel as an afterthought and change plans like that so close to the race.
The owner had also kept Workforce in training and there would have been little point running both that one and Frankel in the Eclipse and/or the the King George if Frankel had been upped in trip and damaging one or the other's status and why keep a Derby and Arc winner in training as a 4YO and then not run it? Plus if you are going to ask a 3YO to run at 10f or 12f for the first time ever then ideally you want to do so when up against other 3YOs doing the same and when that didn't happen for the Derby with Frankel they were unlikely to ask him to do so in the later all age races.
Visually the guineas was impressive but far too much was made about leading all the way as if that was how the horse had won all of its other races when in fact it was about the only time it had been the case and it was generally held up and not hitting the front until around 2-3f out usually. Winning that way over a mile doesn't mean that's how he would have been ridden if going for the Derby though but the main problem was the owner/trainer already thought they had their Derby horse in World Domination until that one flopped in the Dante and you can't go into the Derby with Frankel as an afterthought and change plans like that so close to the race.
The owner had also kept Workforce in training and there would have been little point running both that one and Frankel in the Eclipse and/or the the King George if Frankel had been upped in trip and damaging one or the other's status and why keep a Derby and Arc winner in training as a 4YO and then not run it? Plus if you are going to ask a 3YO to run at 10f or 12f for the first time ever then ideally you want to do so when up against other 3YOs doing the same and when that didn't happen for the Derby with Frankel they were unlikely to ask him to do so in the later all age races.
one for you ima_mazed66
reading racingpost
16/4/11 excelebration ( rated 89 )was beaten 4 lens by frankel ( rated 126 )
please explain how excelebration has sky rocketed up the ratings compared to frankel over the last 12 months and the margins are always close to the same each time they meet.
curious on your own thoughts how this has come about.
food for thought
if they sent excelebrations dam to australia to be served by exceed and excel, he would be an australian bred horse, would you carry the same high views of excelebrations capabilities,
im guessing not.
reading racingpost
16/4/11 excelebration ( rated 89 )was beaten 4 lens by frankel ( rated 126 )
please explain how excelebration has sky rocketed up the ratings compared to frankel over the last 12 months and the margins are always close to the same each time they meet.
curious on your own thoughts how this has come about.
food for thought
if they sent excelebrations dam to australia to be served by exceed and excel, he would be an australian bred horse, would you carry the same high views of excelebrations capabilities,
im guessing not.
I would say sootyfive it was because that particular race was the Greenham which is a 3YO Gr3 recognised 2000gns trial. It was both horse's season debut but at that stage of their careers going into that race they were world's apart with Frankel unbeaten, winner of 2YO Gr1 and Gr2 races like the Dewhurst and Royal Lodge which usually has the winners as or near winter favourites for the classics and add to that the horse has a high profile owner and trainer.
Excelebration on the other hand was beaten on debut and then won a class 5 maiden and a class 3 conditions race both at 6f and didn't have a high profile owner whose colours were instantly recognisable from past successes and his young (but capable) trainer has nowhere near the standing in UK racing as Henry Cecil. Excelebration was the lowest rated horse in the Greenham but beat everything else rated from 97-113 which included the Gr2 Coventry winner at Royal Ascot that had also finished a close up 3rd in the Gr1 Phoenix Stakes in Ireland behind a horse like Zoffany, which had won 5 of its first 6 starts and ended its 2YO season rated 115 and later ran Frankel close in the St James's at Royal Ascot. Even Frankel's pacemaker and the outsider in the betting at 33/1 was rated 10 points higher than Excelebration and then at 25/1 his was the next biggest price in the betting and that at the time reflected most people's view of his chances.
To then get to 4L off 89 behind Frankel when rated 126 you can hardly leave Excelebration stuck on 89 still or else in a mythical handicap, what weight would Frankel have to be giving Excelebration based on that bearing in mind there was only 4L between them? If you then factor in Excelebration winning a Gr2 classic by 7L next time and then after that running 3rd in a Gr1 it was then up to 116. The time after that it won a Gr2 by 6L and after that won its first Gr1 and had moved up to 126 by the time it finished 4L behind Frankel in another Gr1 in the QEll and has remained on that mark ever since when beaten twice more by 4L and 5L by Frankel with an easy 7f run out in between.
So lets assess what has happened to each horse since that run off 89:
Frankel - 2000gn win, St James's win, Sussex win, QEll win all Gr1s at 3YO plus the Gr1 Lockinge as a 4YO.
Excelebration - Gr2 classic win, close 3rd in Gr1 at RA, Gr2 win, Gr1 win, Gr1 2nd as a 3YO and a Gr3 win and Gr1 2nd as a 4YO but has stayed on 126 for the past 3 runs anyway, with only Frankel going up from 135 to 136 after increasing his margin of superiority over Excelebration by a length more than usual, so the option was to put Frankel up a little or bring Excelebration down a little but seeing as though he was still 4L in front of the 3rd they chose to take the first option.
I think that all seems fair enough, don't you?
As for Excelebration's origins or any other horse's for that matter, I couldn't care less where they are from and have always appreciated a top class horse and have never seriously mocked or said anything bad about So You Think or Black Caviar and am far from being the Little Englander that some might think.
Excelebration on the other hand was beaten on debut and then won a class 5 maiden and a class 3 conditions race both at 6f and didn't have a high profile owner whose colours were instantly recognisable from past successes and his young (but capable) trainer has nowhere near the standing in UK racing as Henry Cecil. Excelebration was the lowest rated horse in the Greenham but beat everything else rated from 97-113 which included the Gr2 Coventry winner at Royal Ascot that had also finished a close up 3rd in the Gr1 Phoenix Stakes in Ireland behind a horse like Zoffany, which had won 5 of its first 6 starts and ended its 2YO season rated 115 and later ran Frankel close in the St James's at Royal Ascot. Even Frankel's pacemaker and the outsider in the betting at 33/1 was rated 10 points higher than Excelebration and then at 25/1 his was the next biggest price in the betting and that at the time reflected most people's view of his chances.
To then get to 4L off 89 behind Frankel when rated 126 you can hardly leave Excelebration stuck on 89 still or else in a mythical handicap, what weight would Frankel have to be giving Excelebration based on that bearing in mind there was only 4L between them? If you then factor in Excelebration winning a Gr2 classic by 7L next time and then after that running 3rd in a Gr1 it was then up to 116. The time after that it won a Gr2 by 6L and after that won its first Gr1 and had moved up to 126 by the time it finished 4L behind Frankel in another Gr1 in the QEll and has remained on that mark ever since when beaten twice more by 4L and 5L by Frankel with an easy 7f run out in between.
So lets assess what has happened to each horse since that run off 89:
Frankel - 2000gn win, St James's win, Sussex win, QEll win all Gr1s at 3YO plus the Gr1 Lockinge as a 4YO.
Excelebration - Gr2 classic win, close 3rd in Gr1 at RA, Gr2 win, Gr1 win, Gr1 2nd as a 3YO and a Gr3 win and Gr1 2nd as a 4YO but has stayed on 126 for the past 3 runs anyway, with only Frankel going up from 135 to 136 after increasing his margin of superiority over Excelebration by a length more than usual, so the option was to put Frankel up a little or bring Excelebration down a little but seeing as though he was still 4L in front of the 3rd they chose to take the first option.
I think that all seems fair enough, don't you?
As for Excelebration's origins or any other horse's for that matter, I couldn't care less where they are from and have always appreciated a top class horse and have never seriously mocked or said anything bad about So You Think or Black Caviar and am far from being the Little Englander that some might think.
He's overrated and I hope they up him so I can watch him get destroyed
ima_mazed66 your explanation means zilch. your ratings experts say excelebration has improved more than frankel.
89 verses 126 to now, what is it? 132 verses 143??
and still getting beat by the same margin.
STS beat better animals and ran over different distances. i suggest frankel will go down in history as just a champion miler.i thought the english love their horses at 10f plus? the true test of staying.
89 verses 126 to now, what is it? 132 verses 143??
and still getting beat by the same margin.
STS beat better animals and ran over different distances. i suggest frankel will go down in history as just a champion miler.i thought the english love their horses at 10f plus? the true test of staying.
The only way for Frankel is down the ratings and Black Caviar even further down.............................both over hyped........both over rated.
NAP
NAP
need to disagree there GT , time will tell
i know we aint seen what frankel can do yet but god what a horse so far
i know we aint seen what frankel can do yet but god what a horse so far
the point is that the 89 was wildly wrong in the first place
Frankel walks when others travel , he trots and others start to flounder , breathtaking displays of unrivaled equine ability
No sootyfive, I think you will find that the ratings show as my explanation clearly pointed out that when Frankel and Excelebration first met the did so from different stage levels of their careers and what they had achieved up until then.
If a tennis player went into a season ranked #2 in the world and then won 3 Grand Slams to get to #1 and in doing so had beaten in the final the same player in 3 of those finals where that other player had started that season ranked say #10 in the world and he himself had won the 4th slam which the other player had not competed in, then there's a good chance that previously #10 ranked player would move up more places from #10 to about maybe #2 or #3 compared to his conquer "only" having moved up one place.
If you have the best horse in the world rated 136 by the World Thoroughbred Rankings and another tends to beat everything else when they meet but regularly finished 4-5L behind that 126 rated horse, then just by association alone you would have to give a high ranking to that other horse too wouldn't you say? Plus Excelebration I would imagine would give Black Caviar a decent race over any trip from 6f to a mile with the farther they go the closer the outcome either way and so having BC on 130 and Excelebration on 126 doesn't seem too unreasonable.
The 89 might be seen as wrong now duffy and that's a fair point with hindsight but in fairness they could only go by what Excelebration had achieved at the time and that was a class 5 maiden win and a class 3 listed win at 6f at a time when the horse had not even shown it could stay 7f compared to Frankel's unbeaten/Gr1 wins and at 7f and a mile.
If a tennis player went into a season ranked #2 in the world and then won 3 Grand Slams to get to #1 and in doing so had beaten in the final the same player in 3 of those finals where that other player had started that season ranked say #10 in the world and he himself had won the 4th slam which the other player had not competed in, then there's a good chance that previously #10 ranked player would move up more places from #10 to about maybe #2 or #3 compared to his conquer "only" having moved up one place.
If you have the best horse in the world rated 136 by the World Thoroughbred Rankings and another tends to beat everything else when they meet but regularly finished 4-5L behind that 126 rated horse, then just by association alone you would have to give a high ranking to that other horse too wouldn't you say? Plus Excelebration I would imagine would give Black Caviar a decent race over any trip from 6f to a mile with the farther they go the closer the outcome either way and so having BC on 130 and Excelebration on 126 doesn't seem too unreasonable.
The 89 might be seen as wrong now duffy and that's a fair point with hindsight but in fairness they could only go by what Excelebration had achieved at the time and that was a class 5 maiden win and a class 3 listed win at 6f at a time when the horse had not even shown it could stay 7f compared to Frankel's unbeaten/Gr1 wins and at 7f and a mile.
yes, before the greenham they couldn't have known, but as soon as it was run they knew, i was just pointing out that he hasn't really shot up from 89 because that rating was a wrong one even though they didn't know it at the time.
Yeah I agree but am just having a little bit of trouble convincing others of that.
The truth of it is, the UK economy is a mess, the Olympics will be a big fail, there are no jobs and the climate sux.
They need something to be proud of so a false champion will do the job.
They need something to be proud of so a false champion will do the job.
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