YORK BOOKIES IN TATTS

MaxED if that was all they did then it could be defensible.  However, going 1/6th odds 1234 in an 18 runner handicap is not, nor is going 1/5th 1,2,in a 7 runner race when you have 135% in the place book at 1/4 1,2.

Hi dm.  Hope the results were kinder to you today.

wassie very NEARLY got yesterdays back

Hope business was better on the last 2 days.  Wednesday was as bad as I've known it at York.

steve took more in the playground apparently ,than wednesday !!probably doubled on thurs and 50 % increase again today

York Tatts, with few exceptions has become embarrassing. Many betting to a sixth the odds in the first inc G Hughes no 1 pitch. I mean is it imposible to frame a win market that makes the place (at a fifth)viable? Most 16-20 runner handicaps 90% books 1/5 odds. Fine I accept punters still betting with them, but isn't this whole thing(given the collapse in slippage) terribly short sighted?

Hamilton tonight, almost all the books betting traditional ew terms,aye even BDH well done to him and welcome back,   the extremities of the ring where latham had 3 pitches being the exception plus of course Porter.
Sportsadvisor,these bookies moaning and whingering  about the lack of business whist offering inferier terms  than the high street to punters paying good money to go racing defies belief,treat your customers with contempt and eventually you have no customers.

SPOT ON SPORT,BUT UNFORTUNATLY EMBARRASMENT ISNT A FACTOR FOR A LOT OF THESE SO CALLED BOOKMAKERS,TOTALY KILLING THE GAME.

how are they killing the game

ARE U SERIOUS DAVY????????

mmammalushka !!! porter as you described him bets to one of the smallest win margins on the track ie biggest prices and you can have what you want on !! the fact he goes a 1/5 1 2 is neither here nor there imo.. its his personal business decision .... you dont have to bet .......

is it imposible to frame a win market that makes the place (at a fifth)viable?

I agree with you sports.  Trouble is we all know from bitter experience that if you go the correct 1/5th and frame your prices to make the places viable, the punters will leave you out and queue up to be on at 1/6th/1/7th/1/8th with slightly bigger win odds.  You do the right thing by the punters and they bet with the shysters instead.  I think the problem is that only a few punters who go racing these days have a clue about betting, unlike years ago where they knew what they were doing and could see a blatant con when they saw it.  The only thing they understand is that 17/1 is bigger than 16/1.  This is why I think the Gambling Commission should be stepping in under their 'protection of the vulnerable' guise.

GOOD IDEA NINEIRON I WILL BE AT NEWBURY TO REPORT ON ALL THE RENTERS SO CALLED REPS WHO BET WITH THEIR OWN MONEY AND ANY SIGHTING OF THE MORRIS FAMILY PLAYING MONOPOLY

wasnot u say most punters dont have a clue,and u want the g/c to tell them to take 16s instead of 17s,ill leave that one for you to explain then,since they know 17 is bigger than 16

for once i have to support mmmaluska and both he and i know that that is rare.

dave d , neville porter does bet to tight margins but 1/5th 1-2 is neither here nor there. isn't it , that is one of the biggest rip offs arround as those races are the biggest percentages in bookmakers favour.
i also remember he was the very first to go 1/5th odds in the ayr gold cup

not much to report from aintree last night other than the weather ruined it and the liverpool public clearly will not pay £23 to go racing.
[ i'm avoiding mentioning the 6/1 shot fatally injuring itself cantering to the start followed by the 10/11 favouite refusing to line up and the " official " announcement concerning withdrawal rule 4 btw ]

Not sure about your beef re Jack Bevan's alias Wassy !! Think you are adopting double standards when your alter ego is JOHN THOMAS !!!! - or something like that !!

thirsk today the 1/6th odds widely appeared in both divisions of the maiden.
first was just 103% [ at 1/5th ] and second was overbroke at 97%

any book with any quality would have wom well on both races on places

Jockey waited until the last 2 at Newbury to spring into life them BAM!  17 runner h'cap @ 1/6th odds 1234 and KAPOW! 17 runner maiden where my place book was over 130% he put up 1/6th odds 123.  However, his performance was trumped by Kenny Wager who offered worse place terms (usually 1/6th) in every race.  In the Lockinge he put up 1/7th odds EW.  I had 2 lads look at my board in a 12-15 runner h'cap & choose to ignore my 20/1 at 1/4 odds 123 in favour of Kenny's 18/1 at 1/6th 123.  What on earth can you do?

and my other trading name is not John Thomas demo!

always amuses me at York to watch valuable front line pitch holders stare at my 1/4 odds sign as if I was betting to lose on purpose.
of course whilst they're staring they're not taking any bets..decline to one sixth number of bets over 5 years ago is apparent - why? (number of bets - not average wager size don't forget)
and finally, heads in their laptops, not on what's in front of them
major pitch holder(position wise) told me he was worried when framing his book about the odds of those below him. I wonder what's the point in buying the high ground - if not to bet well?
Shame about Greg Hughes, bets to lose and cares little if he does. 1/6 odds first race Friday. Way to lead
and in the South? Barry Johnson and Martyn Verrall getting it on together - abusing scheduled Y to rent pitches to each other. Shameful examples from so called directors of the ARB - and in Barry's case - the two minute 'bookie' - representing bookies on the AGT and FRB board.
Hang your heads in abject shame

always amuses me at York to watch valuable front line pitch holders stare at my 1/4 odds sign as if I was betting to lose on purpose.
of course whilst they're staring they're not taking any bets..decline to one sixth number of bets over 5 years ago is apparent - why? (number of bets - not average wager size don't forget)
and finally, heads in their laptops, not on what's in front of them
major pitch holder(position wise) told me he was worried when framing his book about the odds of those below him. I wonder what's the point in buying the high ground - if not to bet well?
Shame about Greg Hughes, bets to lose and cares little if he does. 1/6 odds first race Friday. Way to lead
and in the South? Barry Johnson and Martyn Verrall getting it on together - abusing scheduled Y to rent pitches to each other. Shameful examples from so called directors of the ARB - and in Barry's case - the two minute 'bookie' - representing bookies on the AGT and FRB board.
Hang your heads in abject shame

always amuses me at York to watch valuable front line pitch holders stare at my 1/4 odds sign as if I was betting to lose on purpose.
of course whilst they're staring they're not taking any bets..decline to one sixth number of bets over 5 years ago is apparent - why? (number of bets - not average wager size don't forget)
and finally, heads in their laptops, not on what's in front of them
major pitch holder(position wise) told me he was worried when framing his book about the odds of those below him. I wonder what's the point in buying the high ground - if not to bet well?
Shame about Greg Hughes, bets to lose and cares little if he does. 1/6 odds first race Friday. Way to lead
and in the South? Barry Johnson and Martyn Verrall getting it on together - abusing scheduled Y to rent pitches to each other. Shameful examples from so called directors of the ARB - and in Barry's case - the two minute 'bookie' - representing bookies on the AGT and FRB board.
Hang your heads in abject shame

I go racing regularly and if bookies are offering inferior odds and place terms i always use my phone to bet online.

good post , sports advisor.
the last point was brought to my attention at york this week.
as you say , for those who wish us to look up to and set standards and a good example , their actions cause us to look down at them
i echo , shame on them both

yes good post sportsadvisor

thanks guys. I'm not concerned at total turnover by the way, I'm looking at the number of bets. Even if modest (which we take as a service of course)
Racecourses still delivering attendances, but bets well well down
What are we doing wrong, it's not so much the EW - that's a strong factor yes, but are we just too boring these days?

as barry dennis said the other day to many hobby bookmakers who dont give a toss just like to turn up and show off

lets face it unfortunately the game has become about taking more money than the next man and it isn't going to change is it? the irish sports adivisor mention are up 3 hours before the first ffs trying to grab the money out of the punters hand,i was on the front line at york and bet 1/5 on the 16+ runner handicaps as i wouldn't have taken a bet otherwise and still lost on the places so good luck to anyone betting 1/4,never bet 1/6 and continually get slaughtered by those who do,used to bet 1/4 at york before the changes as it was different class as all the 1/5-1/6 merchants bet win only,thanks again GC.

I was at York for all 3 days and was very surprised how many books there were at the track.  Why do they allow so many in?  Mobiles must be killing your game.  I only had a couple of cash bets all 3 days and that was because I hadn't bet early (did most of my bets in morning getting BPG) and my signal was awful when deciding to have another bet on.

Also large portions of the crowd just make a stance at one of the bars and never move, or if they do it is just to go to nearest tote.  Crowd seemed busy enough but I guess you know as well as I do that very few are in effect betting with you and I cannot see how that can change as technology gets better.

Extinction a strong possibility for on course layers just a quaetion of how long it takes. Contributing factors are dwindling customer base, sharp practitioners such as jocky et al, level of expenses and usage of Exchanges on course. The substitution of hedging with other layers with hedging on to the Exchnges has had an obvious detrimental effect on turnover. Anyone thinking of a career as an on course layer needs their bumps felt.

democrat,

I second that!

Thanks skint - how was Newmarket ?

SPORTADVISOR,TOTALY AGREE WITH U REGARDING THE DOUBLE STANDARDS OF THE ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS THAT ARE ON BOARDS OR PANELS THAT MAKE DECISIONS FOR THE REST OF THE RING WITH RACECOURSES,AT BANGOR YESTERDAY THERE WAS TALK AMONGST A NUMBER OF BOOKMAKERS THAT STILL HAVNT SIGNED THE RACECOURSE CONTRACTS ABOUT CALLING A MEETING AND FORMING SOME KIND OF BODY THAT REPRESENTS THE VAST MAJORITY OF ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS AND NOT JUST THE FRONT LINE.

democrat,

Undoubtedly, we were one of the few, that won over the three days!

When you say 'a number of bookmakers' Fact what sort of 'number' would that be ? Elected representation would be in everyone's best interests. A system whereby candidates offer themselves for election and are appointed by the votes of those who are directly affected by negotiations/agreements has to be eminently preferable to the status quo.

Well done skint you're different class !

democrat backing back in the ring is not as easy as it should be i know off a book yesterday at newbury who laid a lumpy cash bet on frankel at 100/30 on one off the hobby bookmakers was going 3 on the book asked for a 3000 to 1000 on how much do you think he got

Ribero, I understand your point, but is it not time bookies stopped worrying about the 'number' of bets taken, instead committing to betting well. I agree its difficult, but if enough of us band together(in little co-operating groups) and agree to bet well 1.5% to 2% in some rare instances, we can make more than those determined to process every bet.
Bookie (thats a joke!) near me 'Napper' was clearly offering a pure exchange price, 13/1 22/1 17/1 all this crap. I dont worry about him, simply because I have the better pick and he can please himself whilst he jacks off his day to earn 200 quid. The hilarios part about such clowns (there's a worse term, but children on here) is they can't work out the commission at 2% makes them worse off in reality. short sighted and weak
it only requires more co-operation amongst sensible firms. Sustainable margin must be the call for our future. with that comes choice for the punter - what they miss

Ribero, I understand your point, but is it not time bookies stopped worrying about the 'number' of bets taken, instead committing to betting well. I agree its difficult, but if enough of us band together(in little co-operating groups) and agree to bet well 1.5% to 2% in some rare instances, we can make more than those determined to process every bet.
Bookie (thats a joke!) near me 'Napper' was clearly offering a pure exchange price, 13/1 22/1 17/1 all this crap. I dont worry about him, simply because I have the better pick and he can please himself whilst he jacks off his day to earn 200 quid. The hilarios part about such clowns (there's a worse term, but children on here) is they can't work out the commission at 2% makes them worse off in reality. short sighted and weak
it only requires more co-operation amongst sensible firms. Sustainable margin must be the call for our future. with that comes choice for the punter - what they miss

Theressome - I take the point you are making. It was ever thus that there was the possibility of refusal or insult i.e I recall an occasion at Chester asking for 500/70 and being offered 50/7 !! My point is that the practice of trading with one another has to all intents and purposes disappeared.

50/7 was more than this book was offered by a hobby bookmaker getting under the feet of full time books

how can bookies spout on about %,s and overounds, etc then come on here saying they take 18 bets in a 2o runner race,all off the above only apply when every horse is in the book surely,how you take 20 bets in a race and declareyourself a loser whatever the result defys belief ,the fact your there every week tells us porkies are been told and your happy with the current situation,should be attracting me to your pitches at all costs backed 20 losers at thirsk already this season, , feels like 40 when i read bookies are losing on every race,must have a lot of credit clients because there arnt at long queues at the joints for payouts

I THOUGHT ALL THE HOBBY BOOKMAKERS BET ON THE FRONT LINE???? DEMOCRAT AS REGARDING THE NUMBER OF BOOKMAKERS NOT HAPPY WITH DEALS TRUCK ON THEIR BEHALF I WOULD SUGGEST WE ARE IN THE MAJORITY.

I for one have tried desperately to keep to tatts place terms, never going bigger than 1/4 amd 1/5 but as a back line book, its heartbreaking just standing there with a place book at 96% taking absolutely nothing whilst the front line boys offer inferior place terms and the punters still bet with them. I have also stood many a day on the back line with 1/6 odds either side of me and taking less than 10 bets a race when offering slightly inferior win prices but the correct place terms.
Two weeks ago I gave up. The expenses are killing me so if the only way I can get any business is by offering win only books and a 1/6 odds then this is the way I will have to operate. Sad, but there are just too many books out there with 17/4, 30/1 etc on the board and a 1/6 odds hoovering up everything.

We're doomed!

you'vegotit off subject a bit  but a remember a saying of me dads
you might as well go bust for being too dear as too cheap

Jack Wilson at Stratford today did inferior place terms on 5 out of the 6 races.  The only one he did corectly was a 1/4 odds 1-2.  The 4 place handicap he was 1/6th 1234.  Disgraceful.  I agree with You'vegotit that its heartbreaking watching everyone queuing up to take 1/6th odds, often at the same odds that you have on your own board.

The GC has created a loophole and JW continues to drive a coach and horses through it.

a reference was made to barry johnson and martyn verrall joining forces ,in my opinion the premiership bookmakers that is the main ones operating out of good pitches represent ya man utd man citys arsenal chelsea will evenytuaaly put the rest of you out of buisness if say theres a national average of 18 a day betting the main ones will eventually grind away at the back 8-9 till the day comes when yiuoull just be extincnct in mid week ....the first two above mentioned bookmakers are very much dis-liked on a massive scale and the joke is that barry johnson is out there representing you all .....wot a fkkkin joke as for verrall the guys a maggot

the day they allowed firms to have 2-3-4 pitches in a ring shot the rest of you right up the arszze

the day they allowed firms to have 2-3-4 pitches in a ring shot the rest of you right up the arszze

sorry to be late with this question, the earlier posts wont load.

whats happened with johnson and verrell?

theve joined forces johnson staffis on verralls xyz and vice versa  so when johnson doesnt turn upo verralls staff are there in his pitches and vice versa

the bootom line on how to stop this is this ,and it apples to the ew merchants you all rant about ,,,,,,when u walk pass there joint u go shuuuuus and gob on there board

the bootom line on how to stop this is this ,and it apples to the ew merchants you all rant about ,,,,,,when u walk pass there joint u go shuuuuus and gob on there board

twice

democrat • May 20, 2012 9:01 PM BST,

In the good old days, Jack Wilson would have had his f*cking head stoved in with a hammer!

Come back Dominic (Sabini), all is forgiven!

LOL,DONT HOLD BACK JOHNNY,SAY IT AS U SEE IT

Is this the same Verall bloke who walks round every ring in the country like he owns the gaff?

the danger is within you must realise that ..........................them at the top of the rings with information powers  i.e. getting there cards marked will fkk the rest off you without a whim ........cant ya see that its being done by johnson and verrall and otheres as well ....tommorrow youll be kisssing there jackisees while there shafting you out the game ....2 horrible nasty people .......all together now shuuuusss

thank you johnny. i wouldn't pi55 on verrell if he was on fire

He does, but I dont think he's been one of the negotiators with the racecourses.

thats him rr..........beeen robbed twice .....they say when he was being beaten the robber said ill put ya lights out if you dont give us the money ..............verrall said... "put ya lights out" thats my fkkin line

nothinbutthe truth .....i would but it would be over his head

but going back to the state of play in the ring its hard to know just what else can be done if there was an edge im sure youd have found it by now and u cant keep it long for ya self so i think its all an individual situation ya got a mortgage and bills kids  moderate picks ya cant last .......just you and the missus low home overheads ya got a chance ....top numbers got a chance its down to circumstances isnt it and making shaw that the doggy twins (johnsonand verrall) dont meeet ya in the car park

theyll never get a job with colonel sanderson will they ?advertising ..........finger lickin good

apparnetly poor old bens had his nose re done and his old man, doggy senior, instructed the surgeon to put another 2 inches on it

i wouldnt worry too much about jocky boys hes nothing compared to rattin and rasputin

Ribero
Back to your post about the number of bets taken.Last years Xmas meeting at Wetherby I spoke to relatively inexperienced book standing on the 3rd line on the second day.I had stood on the front line & he asked me how many bets I'd taken the day earlier(Boxing Day).I tried to explain to him I hadn't a clue how many bets I'd taken as all i was interested in was how much money I'd taken home in my ar se pocket.I tried to explain to him that when I make a mistake & cann't get out of it I just stand it,trying to explain that all you are doing when knocking the others out to try to put the mistake right is giving your % away.Trying to explain that over the year you're giving your profit away by chasing the number of bets & taking at all costs seems to have fallen on deaf ears.Who knows,maybe I'm doing it wrong,but I've been at it long enough & I'm still batting?

ive watched you at hamilton and your my hero

you and your big sisster

anyway im off to bed im reading seabiscuit and its better than the film

good night johnny lol ...........tony .....what was the distance given out for the last race today mate xx thanks in advance dave d x

tony;believe me you are not doing it wrong,your way may be old school but it is the correct way.

i was faced with the same problem at ripon with another.
taylor bookmakers....i knew i was in trouble when they put up their first show. prices incuded 13/5 , 13/1 , 17/1 , 30/1.
i put the same prices in my computer and it showed 106.8% for the nine runners. they did exactly the same for every race , with fluctuations they couldn't win more than their expenses unless they were lucky with results..............i don't think they were.!!

and this is a weekend with an acceptable crowd on the front line

they have also paid a premium price for a front line pitch at pontefract.
i look forward to them betting next to jack wilson there. should be fun

even the low numbers get preference in the kelso car park.

adge - were they also putting up crooked EW terms?

no , wasnot , proper place terms but there wasn't a bad each way race to test them

1/6th 1234 is creeping in now I've noticed.

gentlemen all things change over the years and centurys,when motor cars came along some people  were horrified at the thought of it all,all kinds off things have happend where people have said itll never work .....but its called change ..progress.. whatever .....you cant halt the procedure.....in your game because youve been set in your ways you believe the ways that people are trying shouldnt be allowed or cant work ,but there trying to do something different and ARE trying to PROGRESS if doing something different to alter a system that doesnt work for them ,how can you blame them ,in all walks of life theres always someone out there being critical to change but the one thing that never changes is this .....youll never stop it .....you adjust to live with it and work along side of it ,because if you dont .....you get left behind

in bad each way  races why dont the on course books do what high street books have done for years  for some people, if someone wants 50 pound each way on 5/1 and lets say they bet 1/3 11/4 5/1 20/1 bar you can have 50 pound win and 25 pound place, that should help

So you are saying that bookmakers offering 1/6th odds 1234 in a 20 runner handicap, displaying a small difficult to read sign and not printing the terms on the ticket is a good thing and they should be applauded?  That is progress?

Unfortunately, I think in some ways you are right and eventually almost everyone will be offering inferior ew terms to the high street.  There appears to be little that can be done to stop it (or will from those in authority).  It seems ripping off people who actually go to the racecourses is now the norm and considered to be acceptable behaviour, whether it be extortionate admission prices, rip off food and drink or rip off ew terms from the course bookies.

Come racing.

Adge, any idea how they can profit betting this way? I mean we all assume it's impossible of course, but they keep turning up. As for Barry Johnson and Martin Verral, well what seems strange to me is how they sit as directors of the ARB
As for Barry Johnson 'representing' bookmakers on the FRb, I've no idea how someone so clueless, who bets so poorly and rubbishes his fellow bookmakers fair trade stances, has come to be a director of anything.

wasnot,

Damned if you do, damned if you don't!

Seems an apt phrase!

Dave
The distance was 8lth.
I'll have to have a word with that announcer,he was getting carried away with so many attractive women around him.He was like a dog with a dozen bitches on heat around him.He must have been plumb k nackered by the time he got home last night.The dirty old sod.

It's all about being able to convince your fellow colleagues that you got their best interests at heart, but when behind closed doors in their little cartel everything else is suddenly forgotten about,  write to the various Racecourses and tell them that you are thinking of setting up another trade body which represents the MAJORITY of bookmakers views and not just one or two, when the courses then write back to say that they now recognise a body which represents the majority of bookmakers and not the minority these individuals mentioned on here will be up the swanny without a paddle.

i knew i was in trouble when they put up their first show. prices incuded 13/5 , 13/1 , 17/1 , 30/1.

There was a jolly that went off 9/5 SP on one of the televised races on Sat. Sign of the times.

ANY DETAIL OF JOCKEY CLUB DEAL

allpoints !! when frankie anounced the last race was run in a record time of 5.56 i thought he was on about the race to the bar lol.....and yes he must of been knackered as well as hoarse after all his musings and ramblings !!

Any idea if the Taylors bookmakers mentioned re:Ponte & Ripon above is Andy Taylor from Leeds who had some sort of exchange shop in West Leeds?

Adge's description of the way he bet suggests that it probably is

Dave
Would you believe he doesn't drink?
I'm going to get in touch with the Northern area & see if he can have the announcers job full time.The man's a legend on that mic,I could listen to him allday.But there again I cann't afford him to be missing too often.

yes it is itk although it's his rep who has been betting for him lately and they haven't been at it long so only just finding their feet.

Allpoints,I know from your posts that you are a northern point to point man.Do you remember or know what become of a man named Mr.Nattiss?I think he come from Cheshire way and he printed ratings for the points on a yellow sheet.He charged2/-they were good.He came down our way if he thought he would sell more than his way.He sold them at the points for a lot of years,a very shrewd and knowledgable man.Mr. Natriss was his name.

Lets hope that they see sense sooner rather than later. I'll have to wait a couple of weeks to see them in action

both bj and mv are racing most days so they are easy to find for other bookmakers to point out there concerns

I was referring to Taylor's bookmakers not MV or BJ

i have heard on the grapevine that these pair of wonderfull men have given up the idea of amalgamating in the ring and now have gone there seperate ways

mr wilson will sidestep a possible confrontation at pontefract by attending stratford where there are expected to be more novice each way punters

Great!