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Premium Charge Increased to 40% - confirmed by Betfair
Premium Charge Increased to 40% - confirmed by Betfair
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Replies: 276
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Fair enough Ian but 17 minutes seems a long time.
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Quick PC calculation
So far my lifetime is exactly £250,000 I have paid £100,000 in commission I sit bang on 40%. --------------------------------------------------------- First week of new charge I do 20k in, taking lifetime down to 230k and sending the 40% up. Second week I win 30k, sending lifetime to 260k, and therefore get stuck with a 4k charge. (Will the second week work out like above?) Swap the two week around you pay 12k PC and find yourself 2k out of pocket, +30-12k-20k= -2k Can anyone spot anything wrong with the maths, just trying to get the sums right. Many thanks. |
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Thread on GB "The mathematics of the new charge" asking similar questions. A bit of a dog's dinner imo.
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Can anyone pls advise if it is applied to multiples betting?
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Thanks F.N.E
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there used to be lots of sharks on betfair, now there is just one huge one
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We are developing an integrated Exchange and sportsbook product that will allow us to provide more in-play markets as well as giving customers guaranteed execution in less liquid markets. We believe this liquid Exchange and sportsbook combination will be unique to Betfair and will allow us to capture a greater share of wallet from existing customers as well as attracting new ones.
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pc payers will soon be paying supermarkets £57.60 for a £36 shopping bill, seems reasonable in the betfair world.
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By: This user is offline. Wadders
Date Joined: 14 Dec 02 Add contact | Send message When: 29 Jun 11 09:43 Joined: Date Joined: 14 Dec 02 | Topic/replies: 32 | Blogger: Wadders's blog Can anyone pls advise if it is applied to multiples betting? I asked this question yesterday, here is the reply: Thank you for your e-mail. I can confirm that these bets do not count towards the Premium Charge as you do not pay any commission on Tote or Multiple bets. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further enquiries. Kind regards, |
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We are developing an integrated Exchange and sportsbook product that will allow us to provide more in-play markets as well as giving customers guaranteed execution in less liquid markets.
========== wtf? betfair is going to start taking positions? cross-matching is one thing, but surely this oversteps the mark. you can't be an exchange and take bets, there's a massive conflict of interest |
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They were already taking positions on their "high roller" service...
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againstthecrowd
As a 'track player' you do have losing weeks.. By my understanding these will not now be offset as the the PC basis is now 40%(or 50% in my case) not 20% My rate is set at 50% so here is an example of a month on new structure eg wk1 Gross win(after comm) £2,000 PC £1000 costs £800 net win £200 wk2 Gross win (after comm) £4,000 PC £2000 costs £800 net win £1,200 wk3 Gross loss(after comm) -£2,000 PC nil costs £800 net loss£2,000 wk4 Gross win (after comm) £4,000 PC £2000 costs £800 net win £1,200 The costs above are estimated as £600 box hire and £200 travel per week, which is not an overstatement. Thus, in this example somebody grossing 8k per 4 weeks - c 100k per annum now nets £600 in 4 weeks.. £150 per week for his efforts... Why isn't it -£2.8k so - £200 overall not +£600?? |
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There is another error. Week 2 gross win is £3200 not £1200.
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"We are developing an integrated Exchange and sportsbook product that will allow us to provide more in-play markets as well as giving customers guaranteed execution in less liquid markets. We believe this liquid Exchange and sportsbook combination will be unique to Betfair and will allow us to capture a greater share of wallet from existing customers as well as attracting new ones."
Canary where did you read this ? |
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Sorry, net win.
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that's true, stake, but on an ad-hoc basis and in response to a particular demand. but this is different, just getting involved for the sake of it.
don't forget, they have access to everyone's P&L on here, and if they see someone with a successful strategy, they can replicate it with better market access and zero cost (comm). this is a truly horrible situation |
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A thought.. could Betfair be bowing to gov pressure?
If someone in hmrc thought there was a raft of tax dodging punters then they could get their cut from Betfairs increased tax bill. The only way forward is to increase stakes, in the same way that buinesses pass on their overheads to their customers. A never ending downward spiral  |
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Re my post... Rollo ,sorry yes you are right... loss of £200 (not a profit of £600)forgot to take costs off that line..
JD... that line I think is correct... taking pc as 50% it is £4,000 GP... £2000 PC £800 costs.. so £1200 net profit.. Just trying to spell out the position of a 100k per annum gross winning punter on track after new PC charge.... Result is zero profit... |
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betting_quant it is in Betfairs financial statement that came out today with their announcement of thier results. I will try and find a link.
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Sports
Betfair is a sports-led business because we have a unique sports betting product. Sports betting is the largest segment of online gaming, generating some 40% of all online betting and gaming revenue. In the markets where we operate, around 20% of total sports betting is now placed online, and this will continue to grow. Being a sports-led operator has other advantages. Because sports betting customers are more loyal - and are naturally attracted back to the operator's website by exciting sporting fixtures - the marketing spend on attracting and retaining sports customers is lower than in other forms of gaming. New product delivery is key to driving revenue growth. The Betting Exchange is our lead Sports product and will remain so. But we will enhance our customer experience in two important ways. First, the investment we have been making in our platform will enable us to launch a faster version of our website during FY12, with a completely new look and feel and greatly improved navigation. Second, we will extend the number of markets we offer to customers. We are developing an integrated Exchange and sportsbook product that will allow us to provide more in-play markets as well as giving customers guaranteed execution in less liquid markets. We believe this liquid Exchange and sportsbook combination will be unique to Betfair and will allow us to capture a greater share of wallet from existing customers as well as attracting new ones. |
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canary thanks. I posted this up on general betting months ago, no one beleived me, so I want to go back and say I told you all!
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JD - you're wrong mate.
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The other thing to note in Betfairs financial statement is regard to High Rollers. This apparently has now been discontinued but basically just before the exchange was floated a number of large losing clients were moved to a seperate subsiduary in Gibraltar where they were allowed to phone up and bet whatever they liked at Betfair prices without it hitting the exchange. The turnover on racing at the time was down accordingly.
"During Q1, Betfair ran a trial service with a small number of ''high roller'' customers. By their nature, the size and scale of the betting patterns of these customers was too large to be fully hedged through the Betting Exchange and so, during the trial, Betfair necessarily accepted proprietary risk on these bets. The trial proved profitable, but the volatility of returns from this business was such that Betfair decided at the end of the quarter not to proceed with this product offering." |
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The above clearly shows that Betfair are keen to lay bets themselves to large losers rather than letting other exchange players take the "easy money". It does obviously have risks attached though as it only takes a Vietch type character or similar to get hold of one of these accounts for a while for the fun to begin.
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A thought.. could Betfair be bowing to gov pressure?
If someone in hmrc thought there was a raft of tax dodging punters then they could get their cut from Betfairs increased tax bill. --------------------- but betfair already cover this with the current premium charge; everyone pays a minimum of 20% on gross profit. betfair then pay tax to the hmrc. in effect customers on here pay tax, whether through comm or premium charge |
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It will be interesting as well to see how the integrated sports book/exchange works. It can have few benefits for anyone other than Betfairs shareholders. As marked cards go with regard to sport given the clients bets Betfair will be able to see and then copy/queue jump in front of them surely opens a potentially horrific scenario of them being able to lay exactly the bets that they want. Its like putting your hand into a tombola and knowing which selections have all the prizes in.
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What will stop people from using a new or losing account from a relative or friend ?
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How can people betting from tracks using someone else's account be identified? They aren't at home on the same IP address location
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What will stop people from using a new or losing account from a relative or friend ?
------------ it won't. it will encourage it. if you stand to lose £50,000 in extra pc, I guess you would happily slip someone you know £10k for use of their id. the people that will really suffer are ones like Manchesterskytrain (sp?) who talked of netting £600 last week, but would only get £350 after the hike |
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In the early days B/f were bending over backwards to accommodate the big players so as to provide the liquidity they needed. As is the case with large corporations they have now become arrogant and are determined to extend profits by whatever means are available. Could be that in the longer term they will regret the decision if the the guys in purple attempt to woo the bigger players away in exchange for providing better liquidity. From the exchanges point of view, liquidity is the key factor when it comes to attracting punters and if the big players got together and decided to withdraw their support I think B/f would capitulate.
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Sugarfoot you are right but i would say manc is an extreme case. He appears to back very few losers yet he has i believe been paying premium charge without making any attempt to avoid it. I have paid it in the past but in the second half of last year did a lot of arbing / trading which while making an overall profit left me five figures down on here. He could do the same but he maybe doesnt think its worth the effort.
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Stewardsenquiry if you read todays financial statement you will see that Betfair plan on moving into the void to provide the liquidity lost by the removal of the PC payers. My guess is they will have taken the most successful ones copied thier models and plan on providing the liquidity themselves.
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purple fellas, lets do it but we ALL have to go!
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It will be tricky to replicate IR though !
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the more people that use purple the better the sit e will be (obviously). they would soon be on a par with this place.
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Why doesnt racing start its own exchange ? They cant be making much from on-course bookies at most meetings. Could have big screens at courses showing live prices. Phone/ i-pad your bets. They could even get away with commission at more than 5%. People would like the idea of racing making the profit rather than shareholders.
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When the say 'play in over 1000 markets' that's per year I assume??
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I remember when they brought in the 20% it really depressed me
I am not a winning punter, but part of the fun of gambling is the dream of eventually making a living from it and paying no tax on it. When they introduced the 'premium charge' it was a tax on betting and as such was depressing. Maybe it had something to do with me playing mostly poker nowadays, no premium charge. If I get good at poker, betfair will not slap a 60% tax on me as they know I can easily go elsewhere. Now the charge is 60% is has destroyed all dreams about horseracing. I often think of giving trading on horseracing a go, but this has put me off. If I won a lot from it, it would infuriate me to give betfair 60% |