A GOLD FLAG WILL FLUTTER ABOVE THE JOINT!!!!

how long you be strutting your stuff at sedgefield regit?

^get a room

regit this is similar with the BPA badge and the advertising that took place in the 40/50s

Only Bet with the Man with the BADGE.

This was to safeguard against Welch, but had an affect.

So if the Course helps by making anouncements.

ONLY BET WITH A BOOKMAKER WITH A GOLD UMBRELLA

May do the trick

cubone

Welchers...not Bookmakers from Wales.

regit:a gold flag wont work,your e/way business will continue to suffer(mine is)because i/we refuse to go 1/6 or 1/7 odds.will continue to suffer until 1 of 2 things is done,sadly the gc arent going to change the rules so that leaves no2 which is that all on course books get together and WE ALL dont use 1/6 or 1/7.but i dont hold out much hope,do you.

schedule y.my wife works for rossy.you could not give me a pitch ribero.i bet in pick 1 after i had politely asked bdh to move.to my right mrs r.-jimmy l.-mat2-to my left bdh-bk1-mat1-bk2.A TRICKY LITTLE PITCH.if id put the best price available around me every one would be a flasher.

More flashers than Clapham Common Reg. :(

none artfull-i bet one race at donny at 1/8 1-2-3.place terms displayed 3 times on board and still 92%.every punter who asked for an ew was told the terms and suggested they try the betting office.not one refused terms.most looked at me as if i was off a nother planet.wont do it again but i dont know the answer.people blame the gc but forget that before change in 16 runner hcaps 95% of books bet win only.

would it not have made more sense for the recently much vaunted tattersalls rules on betting
to have made a complete review of both the ew terms and rule 4
and brought them in line to the new modern era
ew 1/4 1234 just cannot and will not work
it doesnt add up and the sooner everyone1 realises this and works together the better

Agreed shadder.. and by that logic 1/5 the odds 1-2-3 in an 8 runner maiden where the fav's odds on just doesnt work either. Where does one draw the line?

regit,its like most of the punters want each way but only at the biggest win price and they are not bothered about the place terms,as long as they have had their bet.

A GOLD FLAG WILL FLUTTER ABOVE THE JOINT!!!!

I don't know about a gold flag Don, it was a feckin big white one fluttering above my joint after the last at Sandown on Saturday. :)

thats the crux of the problem.if bookmaking was ust starting the ew terms would be different.i still believe that it should be the punter we educate.popped into ponty silver ring to see the firms joint who bet 1/6 every race.large sign prominently displayed.you wouldnt go up to the till at marks and complain about the price of a sandwich.

Odds will go decimal and bookmakers will start showing independent win and place prices.

Paddy - it would polarise 3 markets in bad EW races. A win only market, a place only market and an EW (standard terms) market. This would be consitent throughout the land.

Full odds Win only. Shaved odds EW but everyone offering the same standard terms. Place only odds not related to the win price (like on here).
Surely that would be preferable to the current 1/4 1/5 1/6 1/7 1/8 Win only shambles.

Why doesnt 1/4 1-2-3-4 work when its say 4-1 the field? I understand the 8 runner maiden with a 1-4 shot and its 20-1 bar 2 but ive nver really understood why the 16 runner hcap doesnt work.

luke heart back to your original post.would the tracks have to be careful here.the gc tells us to do something.we do it but the racecourses tell punters to ignore the law.what if a punter has 50ew one with a flag at say 16/1 and its returned 20.punter kicks off saying he would have been better off taking 1/5.

davy next time thers a 16 runner hcap as the main race on a saturday,check the pricewse chart and compare the place terms on here.if you then compare them as 1/5 in a lot of cases it will still be bigger than on here.

Davy - the maths is beyond me but Stephen Little explained the maths in an excellent letter to the Racing Post a good few years ago. He also explained how unfair the Rule 4 deductions were to bookmakers.

wassy would u be prepared to bet 1/4 1234 to get the flag?

Doubt it Reggy. I'm 1/5 1234 in 16-22 runner hcaps & standard terms all other races. 1/4 1234 in these races is impossible mathematically (unless you are subbed by FOBTs) as the punters only look at the win price as you know.

I have tried 1/4 1234 with a huge sign pointing out its better than 1/5 odds & the punters just ignore you and bet with the 1/5 odds books who are slightly bigger odds.

so just the firms and the 4 books mentioned get a flag!!!!!!!!!!!!

wasnot
a letter a good few years ago and nothin happened
racing for change?

Shadder - I think Stephen was too intelligent for the racing authorities and they just didnt understand it. At the time there was no Gambling Commission hence it was standard EW terms or Win Only.

Can one get on e.w. on a horse like Saveiro on course? It was 2nd fav in a maiden hurdle against an odds on yesterday, returned 5/2, the rest much bigger?

to reasonable ammounts with a few books.but you would struggle in a betting shop unless you spread it around.a mate of mine who works for one of the firms watches the bets appear in headoffice every 10 mins as the sharks walk round having their 45 ew bets.in the 5 shops that are in walking distance.

16 runner Handicaps:

A 16 runner hcap with all horses priced 12-1 gives an overound on the win book of 123%, the EW at 1/4 odds is bang on 100% i.e. no margin

A 16 runner hcap with all horses 14-1 gives an overound on the win book of 107%, the EW at 1/4 odds is 88% i.e. betting overbroke.

Ive understood for a long time that the 16 runner hcap 1/4 odds are a problem, are there any mathmaticians out there who can explain why - my first example really baffles me as you have a healthyish overound on the win book yet your E/W goes to 0.

wasnot

your request for books to play fair this week only lasted till race 2 at nottingham,14 runner h/cap betting 1/4 gave you around 114 in the place book,i bet next to one going 1/5th as ever those betting at the wrong place terms were busier.

davy its not a maths thing.there are 2 different markets.a win market and a place market.in a 16 runner race if every horse was 15/1 you would have your starting point of 100%.each horse is 6.25%x15=100.
1.1/4 odds =15/4 which as a % is21.05x16=336.you then divide by 4=84%.
2.1/5 odds=15/5or 3/1which as a %=25%x16=400.you then divide by 4 to give 100%.

so if all horses in a 16 runner hcap have the same chance the win and place gives you a perfect 100% at 1/5 1234.

REGIT - Thanks, I understand how to calculate the EW %, its just that the result goes against my own intuition.
Paying 4 places at a quarter odds feels like it should keep a parity situation (Clearly it doesnt), im just interested to know why.

Perhaps a better question might be how many runners should there be in a race before 1/4 odds 1-2-3-4 becomes 'acceptable', 20 runners, 25 runners etc?

maybe you can raise the flag when you are going standard terms and lower it when you are not? will we have to employ a flag bearer?

If you look at the NAB submission to the Tatts Rules consultation, you'll see that it was suggested that 1/5th should be the fraction for 16-22 runners, but as partial compensation 4 places would still be paid iif the number of runners fell below 16. This was obviously rejected as the standard terms remained unchanged.

usingthe equal chance book gives you

1.18 runners=86%
2.20 runners=87%
3.24 runners=89%
4.30 runners=91%
5.40 runners=93%
6.80 runners =96%
7.120 runners=98%

i think this proves a point.

in the grand national if we bet to 1% a runner(the offices cant be playing.we have 140 % in the win book.
so were going 28/1 the field giving us 138% in the win book and in the place book
125% .

so mathematicaaly youd be better off betting win only on the grand national.

THINK I WILL GIVE THE FLAG A MISS!!!!

What is baffling is that in a 16 runner race with a win margin of say 10% and a favourite priced at say 6/4 will have a much lower place margin than a similar 16 runner race with a win margin of 10% but with a favourite price at say 5/1

So it is not only the win margin that is important but also the price of the fav.

you must understand that in 1962/3 a betting taxe of first 2% then was ignored by the high st bookmakers, as no one would agree to stop it.
It then rose to 5% and the NAB negotiated with the powers that be to alter the place terms.

At the time the SP was well in excess of 2% a runner making even at 16 runners it was delicate, but things have now changed the win odds becoming ultra competitive and dragging the place odds into a lost leader.
betting as they are now 22/24 runners is near the position for 4 places.

i think davy jones has come up with the answer
bookmakers should never , ever bet to less than 123% in 16 runner handicaps.

what a lot of abuse we would get then !!

when , and by whom , are we having the gold standard / flag presentation?

adge:does that mean all those books who bet @ 1/6 and 1/7 should be made to have a skull and crossbone flag on their joint.lol

artful the first flag was of someone bending down to touch his toes but was banned.

lol

adge think u bet 1/5 1234 (correct me if wrong)so u wont qualify.

adge think u bet 1/5 1234 (correct me if wrong)so u wont qualify.

adge u missing huntingdon free day.where u sat please?

But REGIT, would you take a ''bad each-way bet?''

Course not - and quite right too.

i think ill have a go at the gold flag regit :) it just might work

daniels:it will match your joint,are you going to use the flag to replace your hat that has a poor excuse of a football team on it.lol

have u ever bet 1/6 dm if so ex offenders will be excluded

Why not have the gold flag for the books that dont shot most of the money back on here,you would not need many.

Lukehart,how did the term welcher come about?I know what it means but how did that word come about?

max i did bet 1/6th a couple of times.customers didnt like it so i stopped !!

five hail marys and a gold flag will be bestowed upon you dm

on the rails at aintree 85% bet the standard terms. this was 95% at ascot wednesday and 85% again at newmarketfor the craven. it appears rails bookmakers don't agree with you

REGIT
i'm at newmarket on saturday

THanks adge

In reality if we had to stick to the so called proper ew terms and bet to 100% + on the actual place market percentage, the win win book % would go through the roof.You would then have every Tom Dick and Harry on here moaning till the cows come home about the massive % on the win book.Inc sp returns etc.

a poem from the 1700s, of Anti welsh rhetoric
Taffy was a Welshman Taffy was a Thief
Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of beef
I went to Taffy house Taffy wasn't in
I jumped upon his Sunday hat and poked it with a Pin
The rhyme was used when ever a Bookmaker ran away without paying

A bit like calling an Irishman thick

So when ever a Bookmaker ran away without paying the English would claim he must have been a Taffy and the world Welcher followed on and had stuck.

My personnel knowledge of the Welch is to the contrary

cubone

None of you guys answered the questio re. decimals.
Namely a punter can see the difference between 3.3 and 3.5,but may not know the difference between 10/3 and 7/2.

If you look at the way the English stigmatized any other race
Scots as Mean
Irish thick
Welch as thieves
And Jewish as ????

The original usage of the word Legger was derogatory, and thought up by the Aristocrats who had Match betting to themselves,
When a match between Derby and Sefton would take place there would be 100s of supporters from both noble houses and the aristocrats would have there own agents, members of the household doing the gambling, for them.

When it was seen to be popular outsiders joined in, and at once the were called Legs, inferring that they would run away without paying.

cubone

History will show that it will require a statutory order to change the betting terms and as September the first 2012 is the date that the Legal obligation on Bookmakers charges, that will be the day that
Decimal Prices will be come a Statutory obligation also and LAW.

Cubone

Obviously it was difficult with both decimal and ordinary odds being displayed,so that doesn't prove anything.

Lukehart,Thanks for the explanation.

whitemarsh I will enlarge on the topic tonight on my blog it is quite interesting Well I think so

cubone.co.uk

Thanks Lukehart.Have you heard this rhyme about the bookie Owen Moore.
Owen Moore went away
Owing more than he could pay
Owen Moore came back next day
Owing more.

Laughlolol

Thanks all welcome.
I'm pleased it hasn't upset any of our Cardiff Friends. (the Welching Thred)

whitmarsh just piecing together
Bookmaking
from 1700 to 2010

its disingenuous to suggest bookmakers can'tbet to standard terms because it's either 'unprofitable' or we'd suffer undue criticism for not reapecting exchange odds (not sure why we should but that's the debate). in actual fact most modern bookmakers cannot function without exchanges and require to cut each others throats to make profit by conveyancing every penny back on here. You simply choose to bet that way in order to grapple every fiver available

Lukehart your statement at 14.03 today shows you to be an imbecile ... keep writing about the past because you know sod all about the future.

Lumponlarge.

I am sorry for anyone who lumps on large, but it is a forum and that is my opinion.

Perhaps you can give your opinion so it can be debated, I will tell you why I feel that decimal prices will be the only prices allowed on course and off, otherwise there will be a fine involved. it is just common sense.
If you think that there will be a two tier pricing structure then i disagree.

But also it is a forum and perhaps you can discuss it in a more educated manor.

cubone.

September 1st 2012 is the day that the charges that racecourse Bookmakers pay to bet, will be overturned and a commercial agreement takes its place. and unless all the bookmakers agree to bet to the same terms, this will be the date when you are forced to.
i dont only understand Old History as I was the first to realize that rails bookmakers would get boards.

Cubone.

Having looked at the 14.03 statement again and I know that every one knows that in 2012 The Charge to Bookmakers limited at 5 times, is to change, and all you have to do is read the Boards and Rails Association for that fact.
As for a two tier system.for prices.
When Vegs were sold in pounds every one said they wont get me Changing to kilograms,
Now.
When selling potatoes the law demands that you sell them marked in weight at Kg G. you can however mark them at lb also to help the old

But I cant see a Bookmakers board have both Fractions and Decimal up at the same time, can you.

cubone

lukehart:make your mind up first of all you say it will happen and be law(14.03)and in the next breath you say that it is in your opinion,but agree about changes in2012.fractions and decimals dont and wont work side by side,in my humble opinion ive more chance of seeing a dodo in my back garden than betting in decimals.

Artful... that's what they said about
This is a list of Dodo,s that come out to roost in the Betting and gaming

a Tote monopoly in 1955 and 1927, Government.
no Betting Shops William Hill, 1957
No selling of Racecourse Pitches, RCA, 1990.
Racecourses to rule the pitches, 1990. Chepstow and Wolverhampton[ton Chief executives.
End of a Away Bookmakers Richard Muddle 1992
End of Seniority by the Lingfield 8, 1990
No chance of women right, to seniority 1997 BPA.
No Boards on Rail in the Foreseeable future, Rodney Black, , Horse-race Betting Levi Board 1997

I have another 10. however if you can see all the new racecourse Gamblers, aged 15 now, going racing and betting to fractions, when the internet, Spread Firms, and BETFAIR and a New Tote betting to decimal then I am surprised and will have to take your artful away from you

cubone.

we shall see.lol