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bookmakers oncourse who agree to standard ew terms will be able to fly a gold flag above their joint.
1.p.j.
2.crbts
3.jr
4.whln
anybody else up north.
at sedgefld on tues night i bet standard ew terms all night.around me they bet 1/5 1-2,1/6 123,1/7 123 and worse of all win only but took all the ew business offered cos they had changed their place terms on their computer.the punters looked for the biggest price,end of.!!!!!
1.p.j.
2.crbts
3.jr
4.whln
anybody else up north.
at sedgefld on tues night i bet standard ew terms all night.around me they bet 1/5 1-2,1/6 123,1/7 123 and worse of all win only but took all the ew business offered cos they had changed their place terms on their computer.the punters looked for the biggest price,end of.!!!!!
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how long you be strutting your stuff at sedgefield regit?
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^get a room
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regit this is similar with the BPA badge and the advertising that took place in the 40/50s
Only Bet with the Man with the BADGE. This was to safeguard against Welch, but had an affect. So if the Course helps by making anouncements. ONLY BET WITH A BOOKMAKER WITH A GOLD UMBRELLA May do the trick cubone |
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Welchers...not Bookmakers from Wales.
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regit:a gold flag wont work,your e/way business will continue to suffer(mine is)because i/we refuse to go 1/6 or 1/7 odds.will continue to suffer until 1 of 2 things is done,sadly the gc arent going to change the rules so that leaves no2 which is that all on course books get together and WE ALL dont use 1/6 or 1/7.but i dont hold out much hope,do you.
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schedule y.my wife works for rossy.you could not give me a pitch ribero.i bet in pick 1 after i had politely asked bdh to move.to my right mrs r.-jimmy l.-mat2-to my left bdh-bk1-mat1-bk2.A TRICKY LITTLE PITCH.if id put the best price available around me every one would be a flasher.
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More flashers than Clapham Common Reg. :(
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none artfull-i bet one race at donny at 1/8 1-2-3.place terms displayed 3 times on board and still 92%.every punter who asked for an ew was told the terms and suggested they try the betting office.not one refused terms.most looked at me as if i was off a nother planet.wont do it again but i dont know the answer.people blame the gc but forget that before change in 16 runner hcaps 95% of books bet win only.
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would it not have made more sense for the recently much vaunted tattersalls rules on betting
to have made a complete review of both the ew terms and rule 4 and brought them in line to the new modern era ew 1/4 1234 just cannot and will not work it doesnt add up and the sooner everyone1 realises this and works together the better |
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Agreed shadder.. and by that logic 1/5 the odds 1-2-3 in an 8 runner maiden where the fav's odds on just doesnt work either. Where does one draw the line?
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regit,its like most of the punters want each way but only at the biggest win price and they are not bothered about the place terms,as long as they have had their bet.
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A GOLD FLAG WILL FLUTTER ABOVE THE JOINT!!!!
I don't know about a gold flag Don, it was a feckin big white one fluttering above my joint after the last at Sandown on Saturday. :) |
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thats the crux of the problem.if bookmaking was ust starting the ew terms would be different.i still believe that it should be the punter we educate.popped into ponty silver ring to see the firms joint who bet 1/6 every race.large sign prominently displayed.you wouldnt go up to the till at marks and complain about the price of a sandwich.
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Odds will go decimal and bookmakers will start showing independent win and place prices.
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Paddy - it would polarise 3 markets in bad EW races. A win only market, a place only market and an EW (standard terms) market. This would be consitent throughout the land.
Full odds Win only. Shaved odds EW but everyone offering the same standard terms. Place only odds not related to the win price (like on here). Surely that would be preferable to the current 1/4 1/5 1/6 1/7 1/8 Win only shambles. |
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Why doesnt 1/4 1-2-3-4 work when its say 4-1 the field? I understand the 8 runner maiden with a 1-4 shot and its 20-1 bar 2 but ive nver really understood why the 16 runner hcap doesnt work.
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luke heart back to your original post.would the tracks have to be careful here.the gc tells us to do something.we do it but the racecourses tell punters to ignore the law.what if a punter has 50ew one with a flag at say 16/1 and its returned 20.punter kicks off saying he would have been better off taking 1/5.
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davy next time thers a 16 runner hcap as the main race on a saturday,check the pricewse chart and compare the place terms on here.if you then compare them as 1/5 in a lot of cases it will still be bigger than on here.
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Davy - the maths is beyond me but Stephen Little explained the maths in an excellent letter to the Racing Post a good few years ago. He also explained how unfair the Rule 4 deductions were to bookmakers.
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wassy would u be prepared to bet 1/4 1234 to get the flag?
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Doubt it Reggy. I'm 1/5 1234 in 16-22 runner hcaps & standard terms all other races. 1/4 1234 in these races is impossible mathematically (unless you are subbed by FOBTs) as the punters only look at the win price as you know.
I have tried 1/4 1234 with a huge sign pointing out its better than 1/5 odds & the punters just ignore you and bet with the 1/5 odds books who are slightly bigger odds. |
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so just the firms and the 4 books mentioned get a flag!!!!!!!!!!!!
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wasnot
a letter a good few years ago and nothin happened racing for change? |
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Shadder - I think Stephen was too intelligent for the racing authorities and they just didnt understand it. At the time there was no Gambling Commission hence it was standard EW terms or Win Only.
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Can one get on e.w. on a horse like Saveiro on course? It was 2nd fav in a maiden hurdle against an odds on yesterday, returned 5/2, the rest much bigger?
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to reasonable ammounts with a few books.but you would struggle in a betting shop unless you spread it around.a mate of mine who works for one of the firms watches the bets appear in headoffice every 10 mins as the sharks walk round having their 45 ew bets.in the 5 shops that are in walking distance.
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16 runner Handicaps:
A 16 runner hcap with all horses priced 12-1 gives an overound on the win book of 123%, the EW at 1/4 odds is bang on 100% i.e. no margin A 16 runner hcap with all horses 14-1 gives an overound on the win book of 107%, the EW at 1/4 odds is 88% i.e. betting overbroke. Ive understood for a long time that the 16 runner hcap 1/4 odds are a problem, are there any mathmaticians out there who can explain why - my first example really baffles me as you have a healthyish overound on the win book yet your E/W goes to 0. |
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wasnot
your request for books to play fair this week only lasted till race 2 at nottingham,14 runner h/cap betting 1/4 gave you around 114 in the place book,i bet next to one going 1/5th as ever those betting at the wrong place terms were busier. |
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davy its not a maths thing.there are 2 different markets.a win market and a place market.in a 16 runner race if every horse was 15/1 you would have your starting point of 100%.each horse is 6.25%x15=100.
1.1/4 odds =15/4 which as a % is21.05x16=336.you then divide by 4=84%. 2.1/5 odds=15/5or 3/1which as a %=25%x16=400.you then divide by 4 to give 100%. so if all horses in a 16 runner hcap have the same chance the win and place gives you a perfect 100% at 1/5 1234. |
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REGIT - Thanks, I understand how to calculate the EW %, its just that the result goes against my own intuition.
Paying 4 places at a quarter odds feels like it should keep a parity situation (Clearly it doesnt), im just interested to know why. Perhaps a better question might be how many runners should there be in a race before 1/4 odds 1-2-3-4 becomes 'acceptable', 20 runners, 25 runners etc? |
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maybe you can raise the flag when you are going standard terms and lower it when you are not? will we have to employ a flag bearer?
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If you look at the NAB submission to the Tatts Rules consultation, you'll see that it was suggested that 1/5th should be the fraction for 16-22 runners, but as partial compensation 4 places would still be paid iif the number of runners fell below 16. This was obviously rejected as the standard terms remained unchanged.
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usingthe equal chance book gives you
1.18 runners=86% 2.20 runners=87% 3.24 runners=89% 4.30 runners=91% 5.40 runners=93% 6.80 runners =96% 7.120 runners=98% i think this proves a point. in the grand national if we bet to 1% a runner(the offices cant be playing.we have 140 % in the win book. so were going 28/1 the field giving us 138% in the win book and in the place book 125% . so mathematicaaly youd be better off betting win only on the grand national. THINK I WILL GIVE THE FLAG A MISS!!!! |
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What is baffling is that in a 16 runner race with a win margin of say 10% and a favourite priced at say 6/4 will have a much lower place margin than a similar 16 runner race with a win margin of 10% but with a favourite price at say 5/1
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So it is not only the win margin that is important but also the price of the fav.
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you must understand that in 1962/3 a betting taxe of first 2% then was ignored by the high st bookmakers, as no one would agree to stop it.
It then rose to 5% and the NAB negotiated with the powers that be to alter the place terms. At the time the SP was well in excess of 2% a runner making even at 16 runners it was delicate, but things have now changed the win odds becoming ultra competitive and dragging the place odds into a lost leader. betting as they are now 22/24 runners is near the position for 4 places. |
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i think davy jones has come up with the answer
bookmakers should never , ever bet to less than 123% in 16 runner handicaps. what a lot of abuse we would get then !! |
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when , and by whom , are we having the gold standard / flag presentation?
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adge:does that mean all those books who bet @ 1/6 and 1/7 should be made to have a skull and crossbone flag on their joint.lol
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