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Baeed heading in Frankel direction
Baeed heading in Frankel direction
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Adelaide
Look at the performances of Excelebration without Frankel. A high class group one winner. Could not get within 11 lengths of Frankel. That is 22 lbs. That is a lot. And Excelebration would not be long odds to beat Baaeed. |
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The only challenge this horse has faced in his career, he was the 3yo and PP was the older horse in the QE2, he’s unlikely to meet another horse worthy of his opposition, over 8, 9 or 10f. I do not believe this horse has any place or intention to race over 12f this year.
To me, the main difference in frankel v baaeed is that while they are both brilliant racehorses in their own right, frankel was met with a few stiffer tests, baaeed is only unbeaten until he is beaten as it stands(he won’t imho but can’t be classed as unbeaten indefinitely). Baaeeds full brother hukum seems like he’ll be confined to the national hunt stallion ranks and frankels full brother noble mission has lit up American turf (mainly) racing, both as group one winners in the uk. If anyone is giving baaeed a chance to be used in the same breath, racehorse wise as frankel, rest assured, the sharp minds of the bloodstock world, are not, my opinion only. |
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Baeed hasn't raced against anything near the calibre of Excelebration.
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Excelebration.. oh dear, the most overrated miler in recent times, and we know why.. not in the same parish as Palace Pier..
Totally shown up in the Breeder's Cup.. sorry.. |
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any other horses for which you'd like to use the Breeders Cup as a definitive example of their best form? Dancing Brave, Zilzal?
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he was over the top by end of season.
happens to many horses, you might have noticed. |
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Baeed hasn't raced against anything near the calibre of Excelebration.
I'd say Palace Pier was of similar ability |
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I'll be surprised if Baaeed remains unbeaten for the rest of the year, unless he gets packed off early.
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Palace Pier was rated 125 when Baaeed beat him a neck. That makes Baaeed 126. He's now 128.
Top form but still miles from Frankel. |
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Excelebration.. oh dear, the most overrated miler in recent times, and we know why.. not in the same parish as Palace Pier..
Excelebration was rated 129. |
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I'm sure Excelebration's amazing defeats of Cityscape and Elusive Kate - twice, go down as amongst the best in mile history..[not]...
A grossly overrated miler, and all to suit the Frankel Fan Club, which they all got caught up in, at the time.. 129 was absurd then, and even more so in the cold light of today... |
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You seem to know more than the Official Handicappers. Why dont you apply for a job.
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Excelebration was an exceptional miler - Frankel was the only horse to beat him in a European group 1
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You could take these Frankel critics seriously if they didn't resort to conspiracy theories. I only backed Frankel a couple of times and actually lost money backing him ante post for the Derby. There's no reason for me to rate him extremely highly other than that's what my methods show. And there are many other racing followers who came to the same conclusion. Dancing Brave came very early on in my following of the sport. He was one of the main attractions that hooked me on the game and for a long time remained the benchmark for me for a top Gp1 horse. It was only later when I analysed his performances objectively that I came to the conclusion that, exciting as they remain to watch, his middle distance performances were vastly overrated. Other people still think he was the best horse ever. I would disagree but it's fair enough as that's how they see it. I don't accuse them of being involved in some plot to hype the horse.
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It's been well commented on, not by little ol' me, but those with more authority, that the ratings of those Frankel beat were elevated to extraordinary levels so his could be put above any other..
Personal opinion, but the whole business of giving individual h'cap ratings to horses that would never show up in a handicap, is pointless, and horses cannot be compared in different generations or even distances.. The whole thing smacks of a little boy's game.. my favourite is miles better than yours, so there.. and we'll push up those he beat to prove it.. All those great flat horses we all keep talking about, should be grouped at say, 135+... and left at that.. putting one above the other[s], should be left in the minds of those who wish to perpetuate it. Official Handicappers, should steer well clear.. it isn't necessary, and that goes for Timeform as well.. |
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and that goes for Timeform as well..
So a firm that is entirely devoted to ratings/tipping should just give up at the point of hitting your 135 ceiling? Makes no sense whatsoever. |
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When will Baaeed reach 135. He needs to up his game to do it.
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Personal opinion, but the whole business of giving individual h'cap ratings to horses that would never show up in a handicap, is pointless
then why are you getting so worked-up about it? |
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The whole thing smacks of a little boy's game.. my favourite is miles better than yours, so there.. and we'll push up those he beat to prove it..
so Frankel was the favourite horse of Timeform and the official handicappers so because of this they gave him a high rating? |
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Adelaide are you from Australia?
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I hope not..
I'd like to know why it's thought right and proper to apply a rating to a performance in the modern age, then comparing it to horses that raced over 12f in the 1960's, and sprinters in the 1950's.. ? the whole thing's absurd.. You can't compare horses form like that and it shouldn't be attempted, yet this is exactly what they did with Frankel, to get him above Sea Bird.. The Frankel ratings were obsessive fan nonsense, and yes Timeform and Mr Smith got caught up in the excitement enough to manipulate the whole thing.. You only have to read again what Smith said after the Juddmonte, which I don't think any of you actually remembered, to be honest.. |
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You can't compare horses form like that and it shouldn't be attempted
But you yourself were calling for a revision of Sea Bird and Frankel. Seems like you just don't like it when they don't agree with you. |
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Adelaide you could write a book expressing outrage at Frankel's rating - but unfortunately someone already has
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lol.. I know the one you mean. I always thought he made a good case..
Anyway,.. no bother.. cheers.. |
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The silly attack on Excelebration really does not stack up.
When he thrashed Cityscape to win the QEII Cityscape was deemed to have run 123 in RPRs. It was as rating that Cityscape had either matched or run to within a couple of pounds of 7 times, not at all inflated rating. In that same race Elusive Kate was deemed to have run well below her best form. She was thrashed 6 or 7 lengths. It was a tremendous performance by Excelebration and the 129 figure by no means flattered him. The facts of his group one winning form are not a matter of opinion actually. They are there is black and white, as is the fact that when Frankel won the 2000 Guineas he went through the 6 furlong marker faster than many sprinters would be capable of. The merit of Frankel is not a matter for sensible debate as his astonishing achievements are in black and white and on film. But this is one indicator. Timeform timefigures measure the worth of a horse's overall race time, once all relevant factors - such as course, distance, state of the going, weight carried, wind speed/direction and age - have been allowed for. They usually lag behind form-based ratings, as horses seldom run in circumstances which allow them to maximise their speed throughout a race. Frankel's timefigures lagged behind his ability, but his 136 peak timefigure - achieved in both the Two Thousand Guineas and the International Stakes - is the best by any horse this century. What's more, he is responsible for four of the best six timefigures of the century, with this year's efforts in the Lockinge Stakes and Champion Stakes weighing in at 134. |
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It's been well commented on, not by little ol' me, but those with more authority, that the ratings of those Frankel beat were elevated to extraordinary levels so his could be put above any other.. No it’s not. And the ratings of all the many horses thrashed by Frankel were no inflated and nor is Timeform a sort of corrupt conspiracy fixing ratings of their favourite horses. Adelaide you sound like a Donald Trump supporter and on this thread make even less sense. |
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Excelebration's QEII win was quite brilliant - couldn't find a way through and things looked bad but J O'B just waited and the horse sauntered home
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''Astonishing rubbish, laughable drive.''
oh dear... major shock to the Frankel Fan Club today.. |
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Heading in the Frankel direction is something of an understatement. I'm glad he made his true mark today..
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I reckon Baaeed is now a 140 horse, only now 7lbs behind Frankel. And who knows he may even be better than that.
Baaeed is in my view now one of the greats, better than Nijinsky, better than Generous, but as yet not as great as Mill Reef, Ribot, The Brigadier, and of course Frankel. Latest timeform Baaeed rating 137. |
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Plenty of talk about ratings, It seems people forgetting distance. one could argue that Baaeed is already a better horse than Frankel over 10f, he is not a better miler.
He may prove capable of a 137+ in his next two 10f races, who knows? |
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It would be a minor miracle to get a 12f horse over 135 let alone 140+ he may be capable of doing it over 10f, let us dream!
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one could argue that Baaeed is already a better horse than Frankel over 10f
Only if you think Sir Busker is only a couple of lengths inferior to Farhh and SNA. |
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They used to drug CDA, Snow fairy picked up a ban for drugs, make of that year what you will.
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Bullet Train, won two races from 14 starts, he won 1m3.5 furlong, how on earth would he have had the pace of Frankel? yet he was used as a pacemaker? I recon Sir Busker could have give him a race over 10f.
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I don't really understand the point of that? Loads of horses can run sub 12s furlongs until the heat is turned up in a race, which is pretty much all you need from a pacemaker.
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glad it wasn't just me who didn't understand. closest BT ever got to Frankel was 9.75 lengths in a mile race
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It would be a minor miracle to get a 12f horse over 135 let alone 140+
Yes Sea Bird, Mill Reef and Ribot were minor miracles alright. |
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Whatever race Baaeed goes for,providing it's suitable ground,
I can see Crowely properly opening up on this horse to show how good he really is. I don't think we've seen the best of him yet. |
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Baeed has done nothing to match Frankel in the Guineas.
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