Horse Antepost
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Astonishing rubbish, laughable drive.
Frankel 148
Baaeed 125
Frankel could have given Baaeed 10 lbs and thrashed him 6 lengths.
Baaeed is an excellent top class horse.
But comparing him to Frankel is dim witted and stupid and demeans both Frankel and Baaeed.
Why do people talk such complete tripe?
Frankel 148
Baaeed 125
Frankel could have given Baaeed 10 lbs and thrashed him 6 lengths.
Baaeed is an excellent top class horse.
But comparing him to Frankel is dim witted and stupid and demeans both Frankel and Baaeed.
Why do people talk such complete tripe?
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Replies: 79
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Yes, a beating of the great Chindit by 5 lengths....
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Indeed. Too premature, and I blame social media. Sir Cecil would probably smirk in his grave.
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well said cry of truth. palace pier would be the equivalent of exelebration........the former won more group 1's but they were soft ones. frankel went past exelebration like usain bolt would go past a pro footballer......baeed only beat PP a head.........frankel would beat real world by 10-15 lengths.......remember what frankel did to ST N Abbey and Faarh also........please note the latter was never out of the 1st 2 and was beaten a neck only by nathaniel.......frankel beat Faarh by 10 lengths. it was an exercise canter........there will never be a horse as good as frankel. its impossible.
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clearly not in Frankel's class yet - I think the suggestion was Baaeed would follow a Frankel-type 4yo campaign: Lockinge, Queen Anne, Sussex, Juddmonte, Champion Stakes.
This horse is brother to a group 12f winner - be a shame if like Frankel he's never tried at that distance. |
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Baaeed was rated 7lbs better than Real World before the Lockinge. He beat him 3 1/4L. That sounds about right to me. The Official handicapper left Baaeed on the same mark, 125, so he thinks he only did what he was expected to do. He did win with plenty in hand so he could be a fair bit better, but to say he is close to Frankel is nonsence.
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Latest Timeform ratings:
Baaeed 134 Frankel 147. So that’s just under a stone. Mind you Baaeed should be respected as he looks sure to stay further and may well improve further. But comparing him to Frankel, or to other true greats like The Brigadier, Mill Reef, Ribot, Shergar and of course Frankel is to actually disrespect him as he is a top class beautiful brute of a horse with superb action and apparently ideal temperament. Baaeed needs no silly comparisons like this. |
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Always thought Ribot gets a bit overlooked in discussion of great flat horses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41C79yz8NMU is footage of one of his efforts. Amazing he went off at 9/1 against for his first Arc. Should have been 1/9 on! Timeform summarise Ribot like this: Three-year-old season (1955) Ribot’s three-year-old season began in March with a win at Pisa, the only time he raced in Italy away from Milan. He then faced Gail again in the Premio Emanuele Filiberto, this time beating him by ten lengths, and had only one rival on his next start, before his first try over a mile and a half, in the Premio Besana in September, brought him another ten-length success. Ribot was therefore unbeaten in seven races at home when lining up as a largely unknown quantity in the 1955 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe which was much his biggest test to date. Sent off at 9/1 in a field of 23, Ribot ran out an easy three-length winner from the French three-year-old Beau Prince, winner of the previous season’s Grand Criterium. Back at Milan, Ribot rounded off the campaign with a 15-length win on heavy ground from the French horse Norman (winner of the two previous renewals) in the Gran Premio del Jockey Club, Italy’s own equivalent of the Arc. Ribot thus ended his three-year-old season with a rating of 133 but was to go on to even better things as a four-year-old. Major races won Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe, Longchamp Gran Premio del Jockey Club, Milan Four-year-old season (1956) Ribot won his first three races at Milan in 1956 by distances of four, 12 and eight lengths and on each occasion he was considered such a certainty that his backers merely had their stake-money refunded. There had been some doubt about whether his trip to Ascot in the summer would be for the Gold Cup or the King George, and even though the latter race was chosen, he was given a staying race in preparation, the Gran Premio di Milano over 15 furlongs. This also meant taking on some of the best Italian three-year-olds and, at 10/1-on this time, Ribot’s backers at least got some sort of return. Ribot made all to win by an official distance of eight lengths, though that was considered a conservative estimate. "Ribot had so far done everything asked of him, and done it in exemplary style," said Racehorses of 1956. "His stamina was established beyond dispute, he had demonstrated that he had at his command a fine turn of speed, he was at the peak of his fitness and there was unlimited confidence behind him. All going apparently came alike to him, and there was every justification for his starting at a shorter price than the odds of 5/2-on which were eventually returned about him." Even so, the previous season’s Arc remained the one piece of evidence that he had the ability to deal with his King George rivals. Racehorses described the King George as "the hardest race of Ribot’s career". Looking ill at ease on the very sticky ground and needing to be pushed along from some way out, Ribot appeared to have a race on his hands when challenged in the straight by the Queen’s horse High Veldt. "Battle in earnest now began between Ribot and High Veldt, and enthusiasm mounted to a crescendo when it was seen that there was a possibility of a royal victory. Once Ribot reached better going in the last two furlongs, any such hopes evaporated. Lengthening his stride, he quickly wore down High Veldt, and as soon as he was in top gear, showed his true mettle by sprinting clear to pass the post an easy winner by five lengths." Rather than being retired to stud straight away, Ribot was kept in training for another attempt at the Arc, taking in a nine-furlong contest back at Milan along the way. Ribot was sent off odds-on to become the fifth dual winner of the Arc and, in the first three throughout, was always going well. When asked to quicken clear, Ribot pulled away to win unchallenged by an official six lengths, though the photograph of the finish in Racehorses suggests that the actual margin was more like eight. In what was a stronger race than the year before and a very international one, Ribot was chased home by the Irish Derby winner Talgo, third was one of the top French three-year-olds Tanerko and fourth was the American colt Career Boy who had been beaten a neck in the Belmont Sta |
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he only did what he was expected to do
Initially I thought Baaeed looked to have improved a bit in the Lockinge but on further analysis I would completely agree with that. For me, even though still running well, Real World was slightly below his very best last year. Whether that was due to him running a touch too fresh early or he's slightly regressing as a 5yo I don't know. No question that I underrated Baaeed going into last year's QE2. He's clearly shown he's a proper Gp1 horse, but now as a 4yo without the allowances I still don't have him any higher than the likes of Palace Pier as an older horse. Possibly he can take another step forward tomorrow but comparisons with Frankel are, as COT says, drivel. Regardless of that, he is obviously a standout in the Queen Anne and will win if running to his best, as on past records it's extremely unlikely any of the others could make the jump to his best form. For anyone considering backing him at 1/5 I wonder what they think his true chance is? In my view it's a question of him running to his best level or not rather than an interpretation of form chance. In that situation I would find it impossible to differentiate between, say, a 1/8 shot and a 1/5, but just because I can't doesn't mean there aren't other punters who can. Personally I prefer to see a 4yo prove it's improved from the previous season anyway if I'm going to take a short price. As I reckon once a horse stops improving from season to season there's always the danger of a regression coming. Of the short prices tomorrow I believe Coroebus offers far more value, as for me he has even more in hand of his nearest rivals. |
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Tomorrow looks like another Group 1 with a strong favourite against relatively weak opposition. Almost a rerun of the Lockinge.
There seem to be more and more Group/Grade 1s on the flat and over jumps and this is diluting the achievements of the true greats of previous years or decades. When the pattern was invented there should have been a limit on the number of Group races and Listed races run in Europe. This should have been absolute and written in stone outside HQ in Newmarket. It could no more be changed than the possible number of Bitcoins in circulation could. But people in charge don't care about quality or lack of it (and the consequences): That is why we have got inflation of jumps handicap ratings, A level Grade inflation and inflation. Obviously, I think Baaeed will win easily, but beating the same horses again does not put him any closer to Frankel. |
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Hes no Frankel , but , it has fallen for him again in the sussex stakes . Native trail will test him if they meet in the juddmonte . I don't think their is a horse to touch him as I type . I think that Irish champion engagement would be where he's most vulnerable . Travel , juice etc . I don't think he's better than Kingman . He came so close on the heels of Frankel I think he was under-rated
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Read somewhere that Native Trail's reverting to a mile.
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agree about Kingman - best miler since Frankel - the speed he showed at end of the Sussex was something I've rarely seen
Appleby said after the Eclipse that if they met again he didn't think NT would beat the first and second over 10f so said back to a mile and the Jacques le Marois. He's now also mentioned that race for Coroebus. |
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I think Order Of Australia looks value e/w today, will be playing without fav and place markets, but just want to see he is not sweating,like some do from that stable.
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All hypothetical, but on my ratings Frankel as a 3yo would've even beaten Baaeed as a 4yo off level weights. Both as 4yos I'd have him 3 lengths in front of Baaeed. I was actually going to back Coroebus today in receipt of the 8lbs wfa. I wouldn't be surprised if Baaeed's level dropped a little as I have his improvement plateauing, but with today's much inferior opposition he's going to need to drop more than a little. I agree with metro john that OOA looks the value to capitalise if the fav did happen to blow out. O'Brien said he's a faster horse this year and I have him putting up a career best last time by a few pounds.
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Alcohol Free for me - C&D winner - won the July Cup a few weeks ago - could be a filly coming into top form
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backed Chindit in the 3 Plcs mkt.Already finished in front
of Alcohol Free this year in the Lockinge.She's 1/2 & Chindit was as big as 4/1. GL ALL |
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Put them to the sword again easily enough.
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Both Baeed and Frankel have an A and E in their name.
Other than that, I'm struggling to find any commonalities  |
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Baaeed's 9/9 now.The best of his era.Should be applauded and enjoyed
instead of comparing him to Frankel.Can only beat what's put in front of him. |
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The whole point of the thread is about Baaeed being laughably compared with Frankel.
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Yeh,I've put this up on the wrong one.
Well spotted. |
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It’s hard to know how good Baaeed actually is. He is bordering on greatness maybe. But Frankel is still a stone clear on form.
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Just to get Baaeed in perspective
Timeform current top flat horse ratings: 134 BAAEED 131 ADAYAR 130 SUBJECTIVIST 130 TRUESHAN 129 MISHRIFF Timeform greatest flat horses: 147 Frankel 145 Sea-Bird 144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel 142 Abernant, Ribot 141 Mill Reef 140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Harbinger, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble 139 Arrogate, Generous, Pappa Fourway, Reference Point Baaeed is probably better than he has shown and may well improve for a step up in trip. He can only beat what he comes up against. But he has a long long way to go to be considered a true great. |
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Trueshan the 4th best horse in training? that takes some believing.
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A_T, Subjectivist is the one where they really lost the plot.
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Yes he can only beat what is in front of him. But it depends how he beats them. He hardly won on the bridle in the Sussex.
He was rated 9lb superior to Alcohol Free before the Sussex. He gave her 3lb and beat her 3 1/2L. That is just about what the Official Handicapper said he should do. He beat Chindit 5L in the Lockinge, 8L in the Queen Anne and 4 3/4L on Wednesday. He beat Modern Games who was well beaten in the French Derby less than 2L. He may be a very useful horse but he's nowhere near Frankel. |
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I'm hoping that Coroebus will take on Baaed before the end of the season, possibly in the QEII in October. Charlie had that twinkle in his eye, when discussing the prospect, which I've grown to trust.
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Hardly a day goes by without the RP mentioning Frankel somewhere along the lines.. but it does amuse me when the what I call 'Frankel obsessives' take form literally, as with Baaeed, but not with Frankel himself, where lengths were added on for ''ease of victory'...
Baaeed's Sussex Stakes win was just an exercise gallop, a piece of work.. almost like a barrier trial.. yet the form is spot on, apparently.. |
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I don't recall any adding on for ease of victory with Frankel. I think that went out after Dancing Brave.
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.after his Juddmonte win.. either Timeform or his OR..
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"I took into account the ease with which he went seven lengths clear yesterday to equate that to a nine and a quarter length victory, which at 1¾ pounds per length puts him 16 pounds clear of the pair who fought out second place.''
Phil Smith, BHA Head of Handicapping, after the Juddmonte win.. |
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I think Smith was the only one to do that, and, while adding extra on isn't to my own personal taste, he wasn't elevating Frankel over anything they hadn't rated him to before. On time performance I had York just 1lb behind his Queen Anne win, so even though I don't like Smith's method I wouldn't quibble much with the outcome. However, it would take some incredibly generous add ons to get any of Baaeed's performances even close to Frankel's best.
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..but that's not the point, getting him close to Frankel's... also whatever your ratings are only concerns yourself.. this was the BHA official handicapper who got caught up in the general euphoria of the times, that insisted, demanded, that Frankel be unassailable, then and in the future..
I do not see anyone adding on lengths for ease of victory with Baaeed, on the contrary as evidenced by posts on this thread, his winning distances have to be taken literally, because the public pressure to accentuate isn't quite there with Baaeed... I think a future generation will take a revisionist line.. |
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I think a future generation will take a revisionist line..
Of Baaeed? How highly do you rate Real World and Modern Games? And how much do you think they can add on for a one and three quarter length victory? |
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No, of Frankel, and Sea Bird is long overdue a revision too.. all too precious..
I think I could safely add on 5 lengths for Baaeed against Modern Games, probably more, and as for the merits of Real World, well, I would have him about 6 lengths clear of Side Glance and Indomito, for sure.. Of course this doesn't fit the Frankel narrative.. just look at the also rans in his Guineas.. a shocker.. |
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I think I could safely add on 5 lengths for Baaeed against Modern Games, probably more, and as for the merits of Real World, well, I would have him about 6 lengths clear of Side Glance and Indomito, for sure..
People can privately handicap as they wish, but that would be an extraordinary way for a public handicapper to rate those races and make the whole thing a pointless exercise. |
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I thought Baaeed was very impressive at Goodwood.
He was value for at least 5 lengths over the official distance. I hope they go to Ireland for the Champion Stakes where he will meet the French 3 year old. Surely the biggest test for him so far. |
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Baaeed hasn't faced any of the top 3yo milers yet - Homeless Songs, Native Trail, Coroebus, Inspiral. Not his fault because none of them turned up at Goodwood. I do think he'd beat them all though.
I think he'll stroll to victory at York - then I hope he'll go for the Arc. This has not been ruled out by connections. |
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Had the pleasure & privlege of seeing the Champ yesterday @ Banstead Manor.
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