2021 arc longchamp

Just put 'LoyalHocho' on ignore. It's good for your health and the forum. The poster is an imbecile and timewaster!

For me the form means little - the race was too slow - perhaps in relative terms even slower than last year. Faster ground and a truly run race you'd get a completely different result - but that's how the Arc is.

I still believe Adayar is the best horse in that field - I posted here a few days ago he'd have to make his own running which is a big ask for a horse that races keenly. In the King George Broome did Adayar a favour by giving him a lead but no such luck today. Buick probably dropped the pace too much midway through the race and it turned into a sprint in the soft - Adayar wasn't stopping but the others found more speed in the conditions.

Incidentally i don't think I've seen a jockey who I'd trust to judge the pace correctly since Steve Cauthen.

the pundits were saying its a very good  renewal pre race, arguably  the strongest the last 10 years ,we had a derby /king george winner, irish derby st leger winner  dual oaks winner ,multi group winner in tarnawa with some very good horses behind most with top class middle distance form that ties in with the best  ,if one of the better fancied runners won it would it have been considered a better race ? whenever we have an unfancied winner the form is crabbed but hard to  say any of the 3 in the places didnt run their race .

I still believe Adayar is the best horse in that field

Me too, but can sound like sour grapes having backed him. There's no moral victory in saying you backed the best horse but it was well beaten. If he'd shown that kind of form before the KG I wouldn't have touched him with a bargepole at Ascot and don't see how anyone could say he ran the same race, but that's the known risk when a horse hasn't shown any very recent form on a racecourse. It wasn't ideal to be in front so early, but, for me, the way things panned out he had every chance and wasn't winning however the race had been run. Even though he obviously ran the better of the two Godolphin runners I actually don't believe Hurricane Lane was quite at his best either, I think the Leger took the edge off him. It will be interesting to see which will make the best 4yo. If they both improve in line with wfa or maybe one was simply more precocious than the other as a 3yo.

Hard luck for Tarnawa backers and she went closer than I thought her early price entitled her to, which just shows how an ideal preparation can be more important than weights and measures. I never would've backed the winner but, in all honesty, with Adayar not good enough on the day I can't say any result would've really shocked me.

Adelaide
  wd
   GL

I've gone e.w. on the German outsider, they are often unconsidered yet go well on heavy.. and he actually has some good form.. quite a few just aren't going to show their best in these conditions..

Adelaide, apologies for forgetting this post. A perfect summary. Very well done on your win

Thank you !... I don't bet much, it's the biggest win I've ever had...  I did normal e.w. and also first 6...

Even sweeter then, nice one.

I think the race makes sense , snowfall gradual price slip not firing as hoped .Adayar drifting and flipflopped by hurricane lane whom most would think had done enough this season , Tarnawas connections concerned regarding stamina in the conditions , you could say theirs niggles towards all of them in hindsight and opens it up for a horse to run a best ever . the running of alpinista will be a tell regarding the performance , which is unusual at this stage .

every now and then something strange happens in a big race......today was one of those. nothing in the form book to suggest this horse would beat tarnawa, hurricane lane and adayar.........just like when arabian queen beat golden horn in the juddemont.

I don't know if anyone is interested in this in case you haven't seen it, but there's an interesting video of the race put up by At the races, on Youtube, from the jockeycam on Cristophe Soumillon, on Tarnawa... it's quite revealing to see how the race unfolded.. you can see how Hurrican Lane was pushed along upsides, and how Tarnawa shot to the rail at the cut away and went past Adayar like it was standing still..

I don't think he had time to see the winner..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmGcNkP624U

watched it,quite good.

Thanks Adelaide,
I don't normally find jockey cams interesting but this one was.  You can here Soumillion shouting at Doyle when he got squeezed up on the main turn.  It looked to me that Tarnawa sprinted forward when a gap appeared (at the cutaway) just to get out of an unpleasant situation.  She wouldn't have seen the winner until it was too late, but I don't think she could have gone any faster.  If she had been able to make her forward move earlier, perhaps she may have won.  Its hard to tell.

Didn't need to show the whole post - the embedded sarcasm and haughty, superior attitude was the point.  All you had to say was there is another horse who also fits that description.  You're always the same - think you know it all and are the only one with a valid viewpoint.

i studied the form of the arc yesterday morning, and if i had to put my house on the winner, i think it would have been an ew on hurricane lane , anyway i had a good look and thought there was 2 horses that could well produce a shock, the winner and also the 5th seailway,  i put £ 25 on the latter

Marksman... yeah I don't like cams usually but this was worth it... I couldn't understand the shouting, I didn't know what was going on there..  As Deep Bond didn't make the running, it seemed like they used Adayar as the pacemaker for HL, knowing it couldn't win on the ground..?.   Soumillon seemed to have them all covered and always going the best..
It was also enlightening to see all the turns at Longchamp..

One other thing, surely Snowfall has been totally overrated...?..

I thought the jock. of Hurricane Lane ran an injudicious race.  He did a "Oisin Murphy/Kameko".  His horse came out of the stalls in A1 position and for some unknown reason he hauled it back into the pack where it suffered little bits of scrimmaging throughout.  We know the horse stays well and I can't for the life of me work out why he didn't take advantage of his extraordinary good luck and keep the horse up there in the first 3 or four.  It could well have cost him the race.

Unless he could not get through it seems the incorrect choice for Adayar to lead.

Hurricane Led followed the pacemaker and attacked a long way out in the Paris , I was really surprised they did not perform similar tactics.

It was a brainless ride by Buick given ground condition. Absolutely bonkers!

Quite surprised by the comments from some especially EIT… TT had G1 form on Heavy last October and was only nabbed on the line after going for home too soon. He was always going to better with cut in the ground judged on his page, and the form was there with last years second and two G1 winners from his runs in Germany this year. He also was one of only three to tick the strict trend patterns (course form letting him down only):

Aged 3 or 4 - 11 of the last twelve winners
11 of the last 12 winners had won a G1 previously
6 of the last 12 winners had a previous course win
10 of the last 12 winners had at least 7 previous career runs
11 of the last 12 winners had at least 3 previous starts that season
12/12 winners had won over 12f previously

Strict use of the above leaves:

Hurricane Lane
Snowfall (no course win but has run 2nd)
Torquator Tasso (no course run)


I tipped the 1st, 3rd and 5th on Twitter pre race so I’m not after timing. Just surprised more so

You are after-timing as you feel the need to tell us all on here.  And those of us who don;t give twitter as much as a passing glance will have to take your word for it.

Some post race reflections

1. The heavy going once again played a significant role and interfered with calculations based on form on non-heavy ground. Lesson: filter through going first when heavy. Lesson. Don't ignore German horses when going gets heavy.


2. Betting against 5 yr olds record upheld again but only just with Tarnawa demonstrating what a great trainer Weld is.

3. Leger winners poor record in Arc upheld again (but as with Tarnawa and 5yr records), only just, showing that stats based approaches may be ok for background but not neccesarily for individual races.

4. On personal performance, laying Tarnawa at 4.0 as being wrong favourite and backing back at 8..0 helped for a good book but a close run thing that. Backing those I considered value gave me the winner plus 3rd,4th,5th, 6th as winners if they has won but Tarnawa would have still have been a loser so I dodged a bullet there.

5. Backing big priced value each way gave me great place value on Sealiway  at 50.1 and Entsscheiden at 210.0 (paid 35.0 for a place). Lesson. back at big prices even if not considered to be big chances to win.
6. The draw was key in the 5f Abbaye which I ignored so took a heavy loss there.

7.. Never thought Space Blues would go on the ground  so laid it but got lucky with the Japanese horse (see above) so damage limited.

8. Small profit on the day for a lot of effort but  that's racing. Here's to the 2022 Arc . Enjoyed the thread and thanks to all especially to kincem, marksman, figgis,penzance and others for their positive contributions which as ever makes for a good learning experience. 40 years plus of betting on the race and  still there is much to learn. Great craiq. Lesson: You can never know enough.

missed all the weekend action, WD to winners, the draw is usually key to getting a good result in the sprints, dont always know if you have got that right, the winner of the abbaye, definitely one for pedigree aficionados, A CASE OF YOU by hot streak who relished cut in the ground and had a victory over meccas angel, interesting part of the pedigree  was the damsire key of luck, whos dams produced society rock and slade power, with recent 2nd in the group 1 flying five, and took the scalp of multiple group 1 winner glass slippers in that race, entitled to enter calculations on that run. its always easier when you have hindsight to guide your reflections

here we go again - Sandown giving us all lessons. 
You have to laugh at the haughtiness of the fellow.

I have updated my results database with last weekends races.  The results run from 1st Jan 1999 to 3rd Oct 2021 inclusive.  I think I've got the hang of posting these tables now and I hope that I have now ironed out all the discrepencies (mainly due to races being run at unusual venues).  These are for all horses that ran in the UK Group 1s and then reappeared in another Group 1 within 28 days of that run.  Hurricane Lane was the first St Leger winner to make the frame in the Arc during this time period and became the 3rd horse to go on from the Leger to place in a Group 1 (within 28 days since 1999).  The St Leger is the only G1 race which did not produce a subsequent G1 winner from samples of 10 or more runners.  And if the Ascot Gold Cup is ignored, due to only one qualifier (Westerner), The Leger has the lowest percentage of subsequent placed horses (14.29%).

Race	Runs	Wins	Percentage	2nd	3rd	Percentage
2000 GUINEAS	80	14	(17.5%)	13	13	(50.0%)
1000 GUINEAS	93	14	(15.05%)	14	7	(37.63%)
LOCKINGE	8	1	(12.5%)	2	2	(62.5%)
CORONATION CUP	43	5	(11.63%)	10	6	(48.84%)
OAKS	25	5	(20.0%)	2	4	(44.0%)
DERBY	67	14	(20.9%)	11	8	(49.25%)
KING'S STAND	21	3	(14.29%)	3	1	(33.33%)
ST JAMES' PALACE	40	8	(20.0%)	7	3	(45.0%)
QUEEN ANNE	29	5	(17.24%)	4	3	(41.38%)
PRINCE OF WALES	48	8	(16.67%)	6	8	(45.83%)
ASCOT GOLD CUP	1	0	(0.0%)	0	0	(0.0%)
CORONATION STAKES	48	7	(14.58%)	8	3	(37.5%)
SILVER/GOLDEN/DIAMOND JUBILEE	119	6	(5.04%)	12	11	(24.37%)
ECLIPSE	22	4	(18.18%)	5	2	(50.0%)
FALMOUTH	41	7	(17.07%)	5	10	(53.66%)
JULY CUP	27	3	(11.11%)	6	3	(44.44%)
KING GEORGE VI & QUEEN ELIZABETH	22	5	(22.73%)	7	2	(63.64%)
SUSSEX STAKES	41	6	(14.63%)	3	5	(34.15%)
NASSAU STAKES	48	7	(14.58%)	5	6	(37.5%)
INTERNATIONAL	38	11	(28.95%)	7	5	(60.53%)
YORKSHIRE OAKS	35	6	(17.14%)	8	4	(51.43%)
NUNTHORPE	79	8	(10.13%)	6	5	(24.05%)
SPRINT CUP	10	1	(10.0%)	1	2	(40.0%)
ST LEGER	21	0	(0.0%)	0	3	(14.29%)
MIDDLE PARK	20	2	(10.0%)	3	2	(35.0%)
CHEVELEY PARK	2	0	(0.0%)	0	1	(50.0%)
SUN CHARIOT	27	3	(11.11%)	4	1	(29.63%)
DEWHURST	25	7	(28.0%)	2	1	(40.0%)
FILLIES' MILE	5	0	(0.0%)	1	1	(40.0%)
CHAMPIONS SPRINT	2	0	(0.0%)	0	1	(50.0%)
CHAMPIONS FILLIES & MARES	11	2	(18.18%)	2	0	(36.36%)
QUEEN ELIZABETH II	29	1	(3.45%)	4	0	(17.24%)
CHAMPION STAKES	21	2	(9.52%)	4	3	(42.86%)
FUTURITY TROPHY	6	1	(16.67%)	1	0	(33.33%)

and yes, I do enjoy posting these tables, now that I have been shown how to do it!

The right hand column is the percentage that placed in the first 3.

I wonder if this goes to show how much  the St Leger takes out of a classic winning horse or whether in fact most St Leger winners retire after the race?  Maybe a bit of both.  Very interesting Marksman - thank you.

Twitter is full of idiots no doubt, but I stopped posting here because you get the types of reply such as yours Honcho so the out reading the detail and point of my comment.

Agree gibo1981. There have been a few like him (assume he). All are unable to play the ball, so they attack the player. It's sad because it has led to the decline in informative and enjoyable threads. After 20 years on BF, I restrict myself now to just the Arc & Derby threads because of it. Blocking helps though.

Marksman

A useful analysis. Thank you. One thought on looking at it, is that the combined record for ALL the sprint races is 17 wins from 280 runs (6.1%) which  looks significant given that overall figure for all horses/all races is 10% . All those races giving 20% plus likely be significant too.

My only thought at this stage is that the competitiveness of the subsequent races could be a partial factor (eg SL to Arc) as well as the demanding nature of the race won. Off the top of my head I reckon that Arc winners that follow on may have a below average win record. I do remember sometime ago seeing the poor subsequent record of Grand National winners ,  a demanding race which takes a long time to recover from.

Back to the sprinters, and their below expected subsequent win record, I wonder whether the part played by luck in-running is a factor? Put another way, the difference in ability between sprinters is less, there are more of them within the top ability range, and draw/going bias , all combine to influence the results. Result: Anything can win.

gibo1981. I've added this guy to my blocked list and in looking at the list of such folk that I've blocked over the past 20 years, the interesting thing is that none of them have lasted the course. None are posting today. Curious! Done their money, maybe?

I find the sprints really difficult.  Horses seem to go from class 2 handicaps to winning Group 1s in a short space of time.  Also the big fields could be a factor in low win and place percentages.  I will do further research, but I might start another thread dedicated to statistics for the type of races that we have antepost markets for.

LoyalHoncho, I think horses are trained to run the race of their life in the St Leger, as it is the last opportunity to win a classic.  It isn't generally used as a trial for anything.  Winning trainers often say they will see how the horse comes out of it before committing to a future race.   If all Leger winners looked as exhausted as Hurricane Lane did, that is a good explanation as to why no horse has won the St Leger and Arc in the same year.

Besides not getting a Euro 200 bet on the Arc on Sunday by KBC debit card (they block all gambling), or by KBC Bank online transfer made on Saturday 3rd October the Euro 200 I transferred by online bank is not on my Betfair account, today Thursday 7th at 13:00.

Betfair "The payments team have told me that you will have to contact the bank and ask them to claim the money back.
Me: "Why?"

Betfair: "Unfortunately that is how it has to be done, as it left the bank account but did not enter your betfair account."
Me: Why did it not enter my Betfair account?  I sent it using your menu driven Deposit page, Alternative Methods, Bank Transfer, select country Ireland - EUR - Barclays Bank PLC

Betfair: " understand, but it never got to your account, so if you could please phone up your bank and ask them to reclaim the money, that would solve your issue."
Me: Is my money in the Betfair bank?

Betfair: ..."No, it has not gone through, that is why we asked you contact your bank to reclaim it."
Me: ........ Then is there an error in the operation of you bank transfer page for payment of Euro by Irish customers to Barclays Bank, Hatch Street, Dublin?  If that page is not working you should remove the page, or fix it.
Betfair: .... "I can assure you that that page is working just fine. Can you please have a talk with your bank account please as they could reclaim the money?"
Me: .........Thank you for the assurance that the page is working "just fine".  It did not work for me, so you will understand if I doubt your claim.
Betfair: .... "I'm sorry Sean but I have contacted the payments team and they have asked me to tell you that you would need to contact your bank to reclaim it."
Me:.......... I will do that, as that is the only option for me.  I am sure you mean the "deposits team".

I contacted my bank.  They say it will try to reclaim the transfer to Betfair's bank (Barclays) but could take up to 30 days.

Kafkaesque?

I've never blocked, nor felt the need to block, anybody on here, ever.  Only the saddest of people feel they have to do it.  It's like burning books in a village square. 
What is the point of contributing to a forum if you don;t want answers and other opinion? 
Do you realise just how stupid you sound Sandown?
Not if he's blocked this he won't.  Will he?!

Sandown you had a hunch that Arc winners turning out soon would have a poor win record.  The following table shows horses reappearing within 28 days of running in a French Group 1 on the flat, in another G1.

Race	Runs	Wins	% Wins	2nd	3rd	% Places
Prix Ganay	43	11	(25.58%)	11	5	(62.79%)
Poule d'Essai des Pouliches	50	7	(14.0%)	4	8	(38.0%)
Poule d'Essai des Poulains	72	9	(12.5%)	10.5	8	(38.19%)
Prix Saint-Alary	73	4	(5.48%)	4	8	(21.92%)
Prix d'Ispahan	29	6	(20.69%)	1	2	(31.03%)
Prix du Jockey Club	40	7	(17.5%)	4	4	(37.5%)
Prix de Diane	16	1	(6.25%)	3	2	(37.5%)
Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud	23	4	(17.39%)	3	4	(47.83%)
Grand Prix de Paris	3	0	(0.0%)	2	0	(66.67%)
Prix Jean Prat	25	3	(12.0%)	4	6	(52.0%)
Prix Rothschild	25	2	(8.0%)	7	4	(52.0%)
Prix Maurice de Gheest	63	6	(9.52%)	7	4	(26.98%)
Prix Jacques Le Marois	60	8	(13.33%)	12	10	(50.0%)
Prix Morny	9	1	(11.11%)	0	4	(55.56%)
Prix Jean Romanet	9	1	(11.11%)	1	1	(33.33%)
Prix du Moulin de Longchamp	45	3	(6.67%)	6	6	(33.33%)
Prix Vermeille	82	11	(13.41%)	11	5	(32.93%)
Prix de Royallieu	7	1	(14.29%)	1	1	(42.86%)
Prix du Cadran	66	8	(12.12%)	8	8	(36.36%)
Prix de l'Abbaye de Longchamp	9	0	(0.0%)	1	0	(11.11%)
Prix Marcel Boussac	8	1	(12.5%)	0	2	(37.5%)
Prix Jean-Luc Lagardère	35	5	(14.29%)	5	6	(45.71%)
Prix de la Forêt	24	2	(8.33%)	2	5	(37.5%)
Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe	64	12.5	(19.53%)	16	9	(58.59%)
Prix de l'Opéra	42	2	(4.76%)	7	3	(28.57%)
Prix Royal-Oak	0	0	(-)	0	0        (-)
Critérium International	2	0	(0.0%)	0	0	(0.0%)
Critérium de Saint-Cloud	0	0	(-)	0	0	(-)

The Arc runners did quite well, which surprised me.

... and the Irish Group 1s:

Race	Runs	Wins	Percentage	2nd	3rd	Percentage
IRISH 2,000 GUINEAS	83	14	(16.87%)	6	5	(30.12%)
TATTERSALLS GOLD CUP	50	7	(14.0%)	14	5	(52.0%)
IRISH 1,000 GUINEAS	106	12	(11.32%)	13	7	(30.19%)
PRETTY POLLY	25	4	(16.0%)	5	3	(48.0%)
IRISH DERBY	38	4	(10.53%)	7	3	(36.84%)
IRISH OAKS	21	5	(23.81%)	1	5	(52.38%)
PHOENIX STAKES	19	5	(26.32%)	3	2	(52.63%)
MATRON STAKES	58	6	(10.34%)	6	4	(27.59%)
IRISH CHAMPION STAKES	50	5	(10.0%)	7	6	(36.0%)
MOYGLARE STUD	47	11	(23.4%)	6	6	(48.94%)
NATIONAL STAKES	41	8	(19.51%)	8	7	(56.1%)
IRISH ST LEGER	20	2	(10.0%)	2	4	(40.0%)
FLYING FIVE	17	1	(5.88%)	2	2	(29.41%)

Marksman

Thanks again for the stats. It surprised me to see the Arc results as I expected a below average performance. The Abbaye fits with the UK sprint figures but the Alary and l'Opera figures both over 10f are below average but not sure why. And why is the Ganay stat so good?

The Irish figures again confirm the sprint below average  (Fling Five) which is the most likely significant finding in all 3 countries and the only conclusion that I might most confidently draw, given the low sample sizes.

The Euro 200 I transferred from KBC Bank on Saturday 3rd October (actioned 04/10/21) never appeared on my Betfair account.
I used the IBAN listed on the Betfair Deposits/Alternative Methods/Bank Transfer page.
Betfair customer support webchat said they would not send the money back. I should ask my bank to recall the money.
I asked KBC Bank customer services to recall the money.  KBC said Betfair should send it back.
KBC said a recall could take up to a month, and they agreed to try as Betfair would not.

The Euro 200 left my KBC bank account.
The Euro 200 is not in my Betfair account.
The Euro 200 is not back in my KBC Bank account.

It seems the money has been lost in transit, and Betfair are not admitting it reach them despite your bank indicated it had left their account and headed for Betfair. The $64k question is who's telling the truth, and who's telling porkies?

Bank or bookie? Who'd you trust?

You have my sympathy kincsem.  Something stinks and you are getting precious little assistance.  A dreadful way to treat a good, loyal customer.

My KBC Bank branch that sent the money and Barclays Bank where they money was sent are both in Dublin only 1.6 kms apart (1.0 miles).

If you're a friend of the manager of either bank your predicament will be no more I can guarantee. Unbelievable this's still not sorted given the time.

I checked my KBC Bank online account today.
The Euro 200 not returned to my KBC Bank account.
Neither is the Euro 200 in my Betfair account.
The Euro 200 is missing two weeks+.

It can't just disappear:  Someone's got your money.  If you have internet banking, check your account and find out who the recipient was.  Otherwise, ring up KBC Bank and ask them who the recipient was.  Ask for all the available details of the transaction.  If they don't want to give out this information by phone, ask for it to be sent by post.  When you get these details, compare them with Betfair's (details given in the bank tranfer section of depositing funds).  If they match exactly, Betfair will have the money.  If they don't match exactly, someone else will now have it.

I see that you have checked your online account.  Sorry, I should have noticed that.

My Euro 200 transferred from KBC Bank online, Sandwith Street, Dublin to Barclays Bank, Hatch Street, Dublin is now missing more than four weeks.

The long boring saga continues of the Euro 200 that left my KBC Bank online account in Dublin on 2nd October (possibly the 3rd or 4th) on it one mile journey to Barclays Bank in Dublin.
This morning, 9th November, I checked my KBC Bank online statement and the Euro 200 has not returned from Betfair (Barclays Bank Euro account).
This morning, 9th November, I phoned KBC Bank customer services to ask them about progress.  They said that on 7th October they put in the recall of the Euro 200 (I knew that on 7th October).
They will check and "get back to you".
Whatever happened to banks that could check when you phoned and tell you what happened?

Have you tried the Ombudsman? I think this may speed up "issue" being resolved eventually.

As far as I know there is no gambling ombudsman in Ireland.  One is promised "before the end of the year"
KBC Bank phone me at 15: 30 today, 10th November (a few minutes ago.
Barclays Bank refused to return the Euro 200 to KBC bank.
I must now contact Betfair again, exactly the position I was in five weeks ago.

I am on to Betfair chat now

14:45 10th November

I transferred Euro 200 from my KBC bank account five weeks ago to Barclays Bank, Hatch Street, Dublin IBAN IR77BARC99021242831001 as set out in your deposits page.
This 200 was to bet on the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe on Sunday 3rd October.
When the money was not in my Betfair account that Sunday morning I contacted Betfair.
They said they had to do a reconciliation first that evening before putting the money in.
The money did not go in. I contacted Betfair again. They said ask your bank to recall the money.
KBC bank put in a recall on 7th October saying it could take up to a month to arrive back. The money did not come back.
I contacted KBC again this week. KBC phoned me this afternoon. Barclays Bank refuse to send back the money - no reason given.
I checked the IBAN of the transfer. It is the IBAN on your transfers page. Barclays Bank and Betfair have my money. Put it in my Betfair account or return it.

This is Lynsey and I will be looking after your query today. I will aim to reply within 2 minutes.

Hi Sean, I'm sorry to hear this. Kindly bear with me for 10-15 minutes while I check this for you.

Not as sorry as me who has to chase KBC, Barclays Bank, and Betfair ... and the horse won at 110s+ , a possible win of 22,000+ missed thanks to Betfair

Amazing I have to wait up to 15 minutes before they respond.

There is gambling legislation going through the Dail (Irish Parliament) at present (2nd reading) to tighten up gambling.
I sent an e-mail to two of the TDs (members of Dail) in this constituency about this, and other gambling company qualities.
My next e-mail will give a little more colour on gambling company practices. I am sure they are aware of their wiles, and will legislate accordingly.

I have waited 15 minutes for their reply (response promised in 10-15 minutes), but no reply.
Knowing that in advance I had time to boil milk for a cup of cossee.

*coffee

The Betfair webchat is described as "The quickest way to get in touch"

They came back after 21 minutes

Thanks for waiting *******, I have raised this for you with our payments team in order to investigate this further.
The team will be contacting you via email once we have further information.
I'm afraid that I would not be able to provide you a specific time frame, however, I can assure you that you will be contacted as soon as possible.

It has been five weeks since Betfair told me to go back to my bank and reclaim the money.
Betfair misled me as the Betfair bank, Barclays Bank, Hatch Street, Dublin will not refund the money.

Is this conversation over?

No response from Betfair webchat.

How can Barclays not return your €200 when requested by your bank who's acting on your behalf? Do you have you a reference number from Barclays? If so, take it higher. The whipping boys/girls merely read from scripts and unable to think independently.

I gave KBC Bank the reference number BTF 3*****, the payee WORLDPAY AP LIMITED, the IBAN and BIC codes, the date of the transfer and the amount.
I visually checked the IBAN on my bank payee (WORLDPAY AP LIMITED) and on the Betfair bank transfers page.  When I was making the transfer on the sauurday, the day before the Prix de l'Arc I was very careful about this.

When I cut the IBAN from my KBC Bank online page and paste it into an online IBAN checker this is what I get

Result
This is a valid IBAN.
IBAN: IE77BARC99021242831001
BIC: BARCIE2D
Bank: Barclays Bank Ireland plc
Hatch Street
Dublin 2

KBC Bank customer services said if I had used an invalid IBAN the money would have bounced back into my account.
The Euro 200 did not bounce back into my account
The money went into Barclays Bank, Hatch Street, Dublin
The Betfair Euro bank transfers page give an IBAN that is validated online as Barclays bank, Hatch Street, Dublin

The e-mail promised by Betfair yesterday has not arrived.

I am now researching what I should do next.
An Garda Siochana - I've been caught out by an online scam. What should I do?

11th November 2021 16:28
I was told I would receive an e-mail about my missing Euro 200 which is in the Betfair Euro account in Barclays Bank, hatch Street, Dublin. I did not get an e-mail. This was first brought to your attention five weeks ago, and again yesterday. Regards Sean Kilroy

Info at 16:28, Nov 11:
This is ****** and I will be looking after your query today. I will aim to reply within 2 minutes.

******at 16:30, Nov 11:
Hi there ******, Hope you are well. So if this was raised yesterday for you, you will be emailed an ARN number within the next 48 hours to which you need to provide your bank.

You at 16:35, Nov 11:
You will need to explain ARN number.  I already, on 7th October 2021, instructed KBC Bank to recall the money as advised by Betfair webchat in early October 2021.
As explained yesterday to Betfair webchat Barclays Bank refused yesterday to KBC bank to return the money - no explanation given.  Are you telling me to do again what I and KBC Bank did five weeks ago?

****** at 16:38, Nov 11:
No ******, I am stating that the payments team will be in touch with you with the ARN and then pass it over to your bank and explain that betfair have stated they need to return the money to you.

I have exhausted all avenues, followed all Betfair instructions.  I asked you a few minutes ago to explain what ARN means.  Please explain.
I have given the transfer reference BFT3***** to KBC Bank who used it to identify the transaction.  Is this the ARN?
Are you telling me to do what I and KBC Bank have already done? 
Or if you are telling me something different why did Betfair webchat customer service not tell me five weeks ago?
It is Betfair who have to act to return this money. The Betfair bank refuse to return the money.

******at 16:43, Nov 11:
No that is not the ARN. AN ARN number is to prove we withdraw it to your bank so once this is provided to them, they have to return the funds.

You IGNORED this in my previous message "if you are telling me something different why did Betfair webchat customer service not tell me five weeks ago?"
PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION and
(1) will Barclays Bank return the money?
(2) why did Barclays bank not tell KBC Bank to supply the ARN you mention?
....... And, I was told yesterday I would receive an e-mail from Betfair Customer services, presumably explaining why Betfair have not helped.
I never received the e-mail.  WHY NOT?

You say "the payments team will be in touch with you with the ARN ". 
When will they be in touch with me?  They payment went missing in the first few days of October 2021.  It is now 11th November 2021.

You will be emailed within the next 48 hours as stated, I am not aware what happened a few weeks ago, But they will provide you with the ARN number, Once this has been provide, you then pass it to your bank and they will return the funds.
The ticket was raised yesterday ******, Standard time frame is 72 hours, so they will be in touch, There is nothing more I can do for you, You need to wait for the email I`m afraid.


In the meantime, this chat will now close. If you require further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact us back. Thank you for contacting Paddy Power Betfair Support, please enjoy the rest of your day.

You did not answer my questions. It is a disgrace that you say you are not aware of what happened weeks ago. We acted on your instructions given to us weeks ago.

That's as comprehensive as one can be from your part. The next move (if I were you) would be 'twitter' the now preferred communication platform for betfair. There clearly is a "passing the buck" scenario and abdication of responsibility in operation, I believe - too long has past; the concerned parties ie betfair and Barclays do not want to be responsible for the "fund" lost or possibly misappropriated in transit.

Betfair webchat ought to be defunct as it serves little purpose except for the "advisor" stating the obvious probably quoting from the "manager" on duty then. It's not fit for purpose.

I hope that betfair and/or Baclays resolve this very soon, and compensation from either or both for stress and time wasting. Thwre's little doubt someone from these two entities have not been doing their job properly ie locating and redirecting the missing "fund" back to my KBC account.

Thanks for the comments.
Betfair webchat ("the quickest way to get in touch" and get no action) said they would respond in 48 hours and respond in 72 hours, and that could be from Thursday 11th (afternoon) or Friday 12th (afternoon).
Next I expect it will be 72 "business" hours from the time next week I mention they did not respond by e-mail as promised.

******at 16:30, Nov 11:
Hi there ******, Hope you are well. So if this was raised yesterday for you, you will be emailed an ARN number within the next 48 hours to which you need to provide your bank.

Yes, I am well.  Thank you for asking.
45 hours have passed and no e-mail yet.  Quelle surprise!
It will be here by 16:30 today, Saturday, 13th November, because we can rely on Betfair customer services to underpromise and overperform.

At 15:15 today, 11th November, I sent a message to the local Garda Siochana station (police) setting out the interaction with Betfair.

I spoke to the local Garda station by phone this afternoon.
Betfair did not send by e-mail the code promised on Thursday/Friday to allow recovery of the funds.
At the moment I am on Betfair webchat waiting for a reply "please allow me 10 minutes until I can help with your query".

Still no action from Betfair.
They have webchat people who talk to you, who appear to know nothing about all the previous contacts, and who do not communicate with the payments team who might resolve the problem, but the webchat person does not know how busy the payments team are, and it might take days for the payments team to respond.

Betfair said last week they will send me an ARN by e-mail.
They didn't send the ARN.
Next webchat person says the ARN is only when Betfair are paying and does not apply to deposits.
Today's webchat person says you should get your bank to send an ARN to the Betfair bank.
After a discussion he forgot about the ADN and said the payments team could be busy.


And the seasons, they go round and round
And the painted ponies go up and down
We're captive on the carousel of time
We can't return, we can only look
Behind, from where we came
And go round and round and round, in the circle game
And go round and round and round, in the circle game

This is day 47 from the day I sent Betfair Euro 200 by online bank transfer.
Betfair did not put my Euro 200 in my Betfair account, and they will not return my Euro 200 to me.

This week I was twice on Betfair webchat and each time it is as if it was the first time I mentioned the missing money.
It seems they do not have a system for dealing with customers.  They do not supply an incident number.

I have given them the date and time of the transfer: 18:10 Saturday 2nd October
I gave them the amount of the transfer:  Euro 200.00
I gave them my name
I gave them the END TO END ID of the transfer: BTF31****
I gave them the SEPA OUT CLEAR of the transfer: 221104.100.196**************  (28 DIGITS!)
I gave them my mother's maiden name and my date of birth when asked to identify myself

I was told the above would allow them identify my transfer

The next time I contacted Betfair webchat they again looked for the ARN number which a previous Betfair webchat person said was only used to trace a payment Betfair made to a customer (not a deposit received from a customer)
Denied his default ploy "give me the ARN number" he then said that he needs all the details (End To End Id, SEPA Out Clear, date, amount, my name) on paper from my bank, even though a previous webchat person said that was not needed as I identified myself when asked by Betfair webchat with my mother's maiden name and my date of birth.

I was twice promised an e-mail from Betfair.  the never sent an e-mail.

Betfair webchat are at it again.  I asked for the Escalation Management Team (EMT) to handle this. 
The webchat reply "We are checking your account for any recent withdrawals."

With a Euro 0.00 balance, and Betfair keeping my 2nd October 2021 Euro 200.00 bank transfer for themselves, I think they will not find any recent withdrawals.

I'd try emailing their CEO. It's unacceptible issue is not resolved after 47 days. Your money is in someone's wallet, Betfair or Barclays?

It is almost impossible to contact Betfair except through their webchat.
I found two Betfair e-mail addresses in my Gmail and sent an e-mail to both.  No reply.
Yesterday Betfair webchat asked for and got a copy of my bank account (screenprint) with the Euro 200 transaction on it.
Betfair have too much personal information from me:  bank account number; mother's maiden name; my date of birth, and more.
They now know my current account bank balance.
I have given them things we are warned about not giving to online scammers.

Yesterday Betfair promised to send me an e-mail, the fourth time I was promised an e-mail from Betfair.
I have yet to receive any of those four promised e-mails.

If you've got a problem, I don't care what it is
If you need a hand, I can assure you this
I can't help, I've got two strong arms, I can't help
It would sure do me good to do you good
Let me help

I do get a reply at 10:05 this morning to one of the two e-mails I mentioned two posts above.

Hi,

We’re sorry, we have some bad news. You can’t contact us by this e-mail anymore.
We’ve done this so that our service gets better and quicker than ever!
Messenger/Live chat is the best tools to use because it is immediate, and we want
to make sure that we get your query sorted for you quicker than you can make a cuppa.

What a load.

theguardian.com
Greg Wood Fri 22 Jan 2021 17.17 GMT


Betfair has apologised to one of its customers after he was left out of pocket for many weeks when an attempted deposit of nearly £100,000 to place bets on the US election in November was taken from his bank but did not credit to his account.

The customer, a long-standing account holder with the betting exchange who lives in Ireland and bets mainly on horse racing and sport, arranged the transfer of €110,000 (£98,000) a week before the election on 3 November, having confirmed with Betfair’s customer service department that there were no limits on the amount he could deposit and that the deposit would be accepted. He also fulfilled all of the firm’s “KYC” – Know Your Customer – requirements.

When the credit failed to appear on his account statement, he became increasingly concerned that his money had effectively vanished, but despite numerous daily contacts with Betfair’s customer service department, no one could tell him where it had gone.

His frustration increased as the election came and went with the money still missing from his exchange account. He then asked Betfair to return the money to the same bank account from which it had been transferred but again, despite “multiple requests and inquiries” to Betfair’s customer relations and escalations departments, the money remained somewhere in the exchange’s coffers.

Betfair’s market on the US election was the biggest in the exchange’s history, with around £500m matched on the outcome. Several weeks after it was finally settled, however, and more than 10 weeks after the customer attempted to make his deposit, his £100,000 was still missing. The money was finally returned to his account on Thursday, a few hours after the Guardian asked Betfair to investigate its whereabouts and the delay in returning it.

In an email to inform him of the transfer, a Betfair representative apologised for the “inconvenience brought about the delay”. The company declined to offer any further comment when contacted on Friday about the case.

People also ask
Is my money safe in Betfair?
Barry Orr, Betfair's head of horseracing PR, said: “Betfair customer funds are fully ring-fenced and legally protected.
Under the Gambling Commission assessment model, they are considered to have high protection, which is the top classification."
20 Jul 2021

I'd not leave more than £5 overnight with betfair. I'd not even bank with any supermarket so why the heck leave money with a betting entity? Consider pinging an email to The Guardian or engaging a solicitor. Maybe, just maybe, something constructive and positive will come of it. As it is no one from Betfair or Barclay is claiming respnsibility.

In the old days (when Anne Robinson presented BBC's Watchdog) there was a solution:  Tell whoever had taken your money that you were going to contact/email  Watchdog.  People were so scared of Anne Robinson that they tended to pay up straight away.  I did this after Setanta Sports took a years subscription off me after I had cancelled.  After about a month of them trying to fob me off with every excuse (including "the manager has just gone on holiday", I told them on a Wednesday that I would email Watchdog if I did not receive my money by the weekend.  The next day (Thursday) I received a cheque for the full amount with no explanation for their change of mind.  (Setanta Sports went into liquidation a few months after this)

I sent an e-mail to the Guardian.  They replied briefly, but I doubt this is a big enough story.

I spoke to the local Garda station (Irish police) on the phone in midweek and another lengthy conversation on Friday evening.
It looks like fraud.
I kept copies of all the Betfair webchat and am preparing an evidence file, putting it on a memory stick, and it is going to the Gardai next week. (Thank you Larry Tesler RIP, Mr Cut and Paste)
The local Gardai will probably pass the case to a specialist investigation branch in Dublin, or to local district HQ.

I also sent a few e-mails to the Irish Government and had brief acknowledgements (redirecting them to the correct Department).
Betfair will regret their theft.  They picked the wrong target.

I had this on the racecourse three times:
A bookmaker at Leopardstown refused to pay out.  I am a bit shy, but moved back a few yards, and kept up a very loud conversation asking for my money.  He paid.
A Tote employee at The Curragh took my ticket, walked away, and didn't return.  I got the manager and was paid.
A bookmaker at The Curragh refused to pay.  I asked another bookmaker for advice.  He told me to see the Ring Inspector, pointing to their office.  They looked at his book, saw my bet, and I got paid out after the last race.
A few years later an English punter (no shirt, tattoos, had a few beers) was before the same bookmaker looking for payment.  When he walked away unpaid I brought him to the Ring Inspector and he was paid.

Have you tried emailing the CEO? Also name the people and dates you've dealt with. Someone has your money (fraudulently).

There are no e-mail or phone contacts on Betfair, only webchat.
Webchat "thank you for calling.  how are you today?  I will pass your query to our payments team"
I think "payments team" is a euphemism for "waste paper basket".

You've been treated very badly. I'll and fish out a direct email address for the CEO of Betfair. Just recently someone posted it here but I could not remember where though. Hopefully someone saw it too.

I'm back from bringing my dogs to the vet.
One dog was getting stitches out after an operation, and is glad to get rid of her cone ("cone head").

I started a Microsoft Word file yesterday with my evidence for the Gardai.
It is a while since I prepared a good Word file.
It has a nice Table Of Contents.
So far the file is 26 pages long, has 8,565 words, from 11 Webchats with Betfair support.
"payments team" and "e-mail" are tied for the lead in the word count with 21 each, both mentioned principally be Betfair support.
Nobody wants to read all the waffle from Betfair webchat customer services so I will be preparing a summary.

Forumites might be interested in the time spent by me on Betfair Webchat customer services trying to get my money.
Not all webchats were fully recorded (Webchat text copied).
Of the 11 recorded (cut and paste) two are missing the start and finish times.
The 9 Webchats took: 15+ minutes; 24 mins; 27 mins; 45 mins; 67 mins; 57 mins; 9 mins; 40 mins; 12 mins = 297+ minutes (and a few were not included in that).

Betfair webchat customer support
"Thanks for waiting. This has been escalated to the payments team. They will be looking into it in the coming days and will be contacting you via email when they have any feedback."
"I have escalated this issue forward to the relevant team. This will be looked into and you will be made aware of any updates by e-mail."
"your query will be escalated to our Escalation Management Team (EMT) for further review and consideration"
"I'll contact a manager for you now so you can further escalate this as you requested"

kincsem: I escalated my attempt to get MY money to a complaint. I asked for a number ... please supply the Ticket Number from the Escalation Management Team (EMT)

Of course, they did not provide a ticket number from the Escalation Management Team (EMT) as in their website procedures.
All the "escalations" above - nothing happened.

The file is with the Gardai, 56 pages, 16,990 words.

i,m interested in how you got on kincsem . if you can be plain robbed so can anyone else .

Yes, Paddy Power Betfair defrauded me of Euro 200.00.

My guess is five years ago Paddy Power, who have a mark-up of 17%+ on horseracing bought Betfair who have a 2% mark-up.
The exchange had taken the bulk of the betting business away from Paddy Power.
Paddy Power bought the exchange and bought its customers.
Paddy Power Betfair want to keep the customers, but move them to the sportsbook, charging them 17%+ instead of 2%.
It is probably Paddy Power Betfair policy to close low volume accounts.
They do this by defrauding them, or claiming suspicious activity on the account, locking the account, and keeping the money.

It is almost six months since Paddy Power Betfair defrauded me of the Euro 200.00 I lodged to my account on 2md October 2021.
The situation was referred by Paddy Power Betfair to their payments team 12 times, but the payments team are still looking into it.
The good news is there is a Euro 2.00 bonus in my account "You have been awarded a Exchange free bet to be used on Exchange. Your free bet will be valid until 22/05/22 23:59."
"Betfair reserves the right to disqualify you from the promotion and/or close your Betfair account if it considers there is sufficient evidence of abuse of the promotion, for example by using more than one username or opening more than a personal betting account to take part in the promotion. In such cases Betfair will not credit you with the free bet."

Thanks for the award.

Today, 12 June 2022, 255 days after I deposited Euro 200.00 on 2nd October 2021.


Your query has been referred to the Customer Champion Team who deal with complaints, disputes and appeals.
I have reviewed your query and my understanding is that a EUR200 deposit was made on the 2nd of October 2021.
This did not reflect on the account and you raised a complaint with us as a result.
I have investigated your claims and I can confirm that we have escalated all the information that you provided us to investigate for you.
Following provision of the documents to our payments provider, we were able to locate the transaction and action this manually into your account which you will find available on your next log in.
Furthermore, we would be more than happy to offer compensation for the delays in service and for your cooperation during the investigation.
As such, we are offering EUR100 in free sports bets as full and final resolution to this complaint. Kindly reply to this email if you would like to accept this offer.


When I received the above e-mail this morning I immediately withdrew my Euro 200.00 to my bank account.  I will check if it arrives.
I have no interest in the Paddy Power Betfair offer of a Euro 100.00 free bet.
It probably has strings attached, like you have to lose a few grand before you can use the 100.00, or you can never withdraw the 100.00.

On 3rd October I missed betting Euro 200.00 on Torquator Tasso in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe at odds of 110 and higher (see 2021 Arc thread) as my funds were not in my account.
I am deeply suspicious of the bank payee account to which I transferred the Euro 200.00 in October - Worldpay AP Limited.
The present CEO of Paddy Power Betfair, Peter Jackson, was chief executive of Worldpay UK, a funds transfer business.

I would not trust the Chairman of Paddy Power Betfair, Gary McGann, or the chief executive of Paddy Power Betfair, Peter Jackson, with Euro 0.01.



I will not deposit money in the future to an organisation that tried to defraud a customer of Euro 110,000 in November 2020, and tried to defraud me of Euro 200 in October 2021.

Glad you got your money in the end, but the whole thing is an absolute disgrace.  You should have got the money credited + cash compensation immediately after the money failed to go through in the first place.
Just out of interest, will you be betting on the Arc with Betfair this year?  We have a thread going for it and Bay Bridge could put himself in the picture if he wins impressively this afternoon.

I will not be betting with Betfair again, and probably not with online bookmakers either.
I may have an interest bet with on course bookmakers if at the races.

My interest in racing now is two broodmares, their 2022 foals, their expected 2023 foals, a 2yo in training, and a 1/6 share in a 2yo in the UK.
A previous mare had the foal she was carrying when bought but she was infertile from then on.
Her two year old ran into a concrete wall the day before going into pre-training, and the present 2yo has offset cannon bones and a doubtful racer.

My big interest is analysing pedigrees.  I am always working on that, part of the reason I moved to rural Co Tipperary.

Hope your luck improves in the future.  Please keep us informed (on this forum) as to how you get on with your breeding project.

All the best,
Mark.

Glad you got your money back Kincsem , what a shame about that arc bet , how long its taken to resolve the matter and the bitterness its caused . Good luck with your venture into the breeding industry .

Thanks for the comments.

My 2yo filly in training is by the obscure AUS stallion Scissor Kick, who stood in France, but is now in Morocco.
His offspring had 29 wins, 129 non-winning prizes in France, obviously not enough to promote his career there.
My 2yo filly has offset cannon bones (bandy legs) and may or may not race. 
She is probably still maturing physically, is 16.1 hands, strong.  Nice temperament.

My two mares had foals this spring, a February colt foal by Recoletos and an April filly foal by Camacho, both nice foals, nice personalities.
The mares got in foal this spring and are expecting to Doha Dream and Cotai Glory.
That is as much as you can expect, two live foals, and nice foals, and the mares expecting for next year.

The stallions I used may be unfamiliar, but with inexpensive mares you use inexpensive sires.
My hope is good matching of the mare pedigree with the sire pedigree might produce a fair runner.