Even someone sceptical of the Guineas still has the 2yo form to go on. Where do you get a figure for TDH that is well clear of MG's on Dewhurst day, Figgis?

As you know, I'm not the type on here who likes to say present day runners are not as good as ones from the old days, quite the reverse usually. It's just that we've got 2 horses this year, Magna Grecia and Persian King, that are being talked up as champions but in most years they'd be no better than Gp3 winners.

Howellsy, I'm not saying MG was a poor winner of the Futurity, he was about on par with the usual level for winning that race. It's just that there's a massive difference in a normal winner of that race and a good Guineas winner. By my reckoning he only improved 2lbs from that race to the Guineas, which still leaves him well behind the decent winners. The Guineas this year was a terrible race. It had one good horse who either failed to stay, hasn't trained on or both. Some people think he was always overrated. Magna Grecia only had a lot of very poor runners to beat.

still missing the end of comments betfair ,  hello

Howellsy, a slavish adherence to times which reflect only the position as the horses cross the line, while disregarding your own eyes (you really don't seem to be able to watch a race) is going to cost you dearly if you back magna grecia this weekend. The horse won a 3 runner race from a runner that improved 2 stone (or didn't). His other Gr1 performance was reasonable at best beating a 20/1 shot in this race by a neck. Listening to jockey's post race comments, watching the race for yourself, and simple statistics all point to the 2000 being 100% false and completely meaningless. This will be a test of a time merchant with no idea how races are actually run (I would bet you were never any kind of athlete or swimmer in your time) and a trip handicapper who uses his eyes.

GL

not my chat , but , charlton i reckon your wrong myself . i dont think the 2nd is a top horse , but , they talked of mg looking like a bull in the parade ring , ie very much in need of the race . many crabbed rock of Gibraltar as a legitimate guineas winner over hawkwing on the wrong side of the track . so i can see where your coming from , but , i think mg is better than you think .

when mg ran a very much fancied french guineas winner to a neck it was only his second race . he then won the now verturity and has since won the guineas . he has plenty scope , is in the right hands . to suggest he is pants is a big underestimate in my view . diffferent opinions make for good prices . we wait to see .

obviously i,m the latter

Haggas 1st indicated the St James's would be the next race for Skardu as he's had a hard race. I've not read why the change of heart.

Charlton, I'm not one dimensional as you claim. I've learned the hard way about the limitations of final time figures. On his second start, MG suggested to me he could be top class on both time and the way he kept finding for pressure. I was disappointed with his run in the Vertem but at least he showed he could battle through horses and overcome adversity. As I have said ad nauseam, he was also having his 3rd race in less than a month. He was entitled to underperform. In the Guineas he suggested he could track a decent speed horse (Shine so Bright) and run on strongly. How far should he have won by? The Guineas is littered with horses who finished close up at big prices, though it's by no means clear the runner up isn't a very decent colt. You are basing a big part of your argument on his being a mediocre colt. The official handicapper disagrees. I don't say that's gospel in any way but I'm far from a lone voice in all this. All MG has to do is beat horses he's beaten before to come second to TDH. So presumably you accept his entitlement to come 2nd on form? Then it's about how good TDH is. I had him down as the best 2yo, yes, but he was no Frankel. The Dewhurst form looked less than pristine at the time and now looks decidedly dubious. The Doncaster form is style over substance (Cardini!?). I really hope he has trained on as I'd like to see a good contest.

magna has beaten only one horse outside of the 2000, namely phoenix by a head. One is 6/4 and one is 20/1.

in the guineas he beat emeraaty and skardu. we have the draw to blame for that, so actually there are 10 horses in here that he hasn't beaten, and with the relative prices for phoenix and skardu you really have to be a mug to side with him over them.

Ok, that comment was a bit lazy and not literally true. I get your argument about Skardu in theory, although he did beat Phoenix at Donny. As for Shelir, again, you're right but I have MG 11 lbs clear of that one. It's also true that Phoenix and Skardu are drawn much better. But I have a feeling the race might unfold away from the rail. Wow, if you think he hasn't got most of these covered, you really have taken a dim view of his form. I like strong views and will be the first to acknowledge it if you're right.

Figgis, I didn't look at the other races on the card

So you deduced a draw bias from the running of one race?

O'briens don't seem to running amazing at the moment, maybe went off the boil a bit

come on too darn hot, put this fat camel in his place

God, a huge disappointment. Yep, got that one wrong. Congrats Figgis and Charlton. Losing face not quite as bad as losing money though.

well done to the winners , charlton specifically as he was not impressed by mg and proved correct . next time put your neck on the block

its a possibility 123 that he didnt , in hindsight to see him drifting to 15/8 suggested he was flat going into the race . then the punters smashed him back in to where he should,ve been price wise . time will tell . i didnt like pos personally , looks like a poor crop

To me PoS is exposed, and he was fresh and ready to run - he missed Newmarket for a minor issue - not "knackered" like TDH, and possibly MG too; two principals not performing in the same race from experience tells me the result is suspect, inconclusive at least.

I hope Gosden gets TDH spot-on for Royal Ascot, and thrashes PoS and others to smithereens; 4/1 is a price worth taking, I believe.

Maybe "exposed" may not be the appropriate description nevertheless, PoS has established solid but not outstanding form eg beaten comprehensively by TDH, and MG who was only having his 3rd race, but 2 Gp races in 2 weeks - a win and a 2nd; PoS only beat Watan (what has this horse done?).

I think Gosden despite being gracious in defeat and praising the performance of PoS he must be feeling fairly confident his charge can reverse placing with PoS at Ascot; the main adversary for TDH could be MG as this horse did not turn up in the Irish 2000G, I believe.

Regards TDH: That did spring to mind, but I'm hoping the quick reappearance post the rushed Dante was a double indemnity. And, a 3-week break could rejuvenate his 2 yr old form.

Despite backing Magna Grecia for the English 2000G nevertheless, a frustrating time post that (betting wise) eg backed Hermosa for the Oaks (not 1000G both) - no show; backed TDH (2000G) - no show (consolation dividend from 'lays') thus St James's Palace - derailed; MG is value at 6/1 though (I strongly believe). But, still unconvinced by PoS despite his win.

Mehdaayih/Broome/AVD/Madh/SR (will only re-back on race day) to the rescue (hopefully/perhaps).