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impossible123
09 Jul 17 19:45
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Date Joined: 07 Sep 15
| Topic/replies: 34,595 | Blogger: impossible123's blog
Caravaggio and winner of the Commonwealth Cup is 5/4 fav. He is also competing against his elders for the 1st time. The main protagonists of the King Stand are amongst his adversaries eg the winner The Tin Man, Tasleet and Limato.

Will Caravaggio remain unbeaten? There is only 1lb difference in the rating. What a race if all the above show up.

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Replies: 88
By:
johnnyrant
When: 11 Jul 17 10:15
HQ will be hit by a lot of rain in next 24hrs but it is then a drying forecast before risk of rain on Sat. If it's fast I would fancy Limato to win this race again. Ascot not his track and his draw there was a big disadvantage given the way the race developed. Actually did amazingly to get into a challenging position.

Caravaggio won at Ascot in 1.13.49; The Tin Man in 1.12.02. Caravaggio 6lbs better off but doesn't merit being 11-10 imho compared to the prices available on the Diamond Jubilee main protagonists.
By:
sageform
When: 11 Jul 17 16:19
Plenty of possible winners so the draw and going could be the deciding factor. Bet on the day unless you fancy laying Caravaggio.
By:
impossible123
When: 11 Jul 17 16:25
True, the Diamond Jubilee winner recorded a faster time but Caravaggio reared up just before the stalls opened - I was surprised that he won after that. Caravaggio goes on any ground but cannot say the same for some of the others esp Limato. But correct 11/10 is skinny for this renewal and 1st time against his elders of quality.
By:
IrisDeBalme
When: 12 Jul 17 08:45
Think CARRAVAGGIO will get beat - this is really competitive race no way a Even shot... main bet for me TASLEET 9/1... he is group 1 class ...
By:
johnnyrant
When: 12 Jul 17 09:26
I do struggle with the view the Commonwealth was the race of the season and 3 top sprinters emerged. The Diamond Jubilee a much stronger sprint for me, backed up by the winning time. The other thing imp - Caravaggio reared up in the stalls but he didn't love any momentum or distance when he came out.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 12 Jul 17 09:27
*lose
By:
impossible123
When: 12 Jul 17 11:55
Caravaggio did not lose any momentum or distance when he came out - that maybe true - but no doubt unsettled him and used up energy that could be important and useful at the business end of a race esp this one; this race is not a walk-in-the-park race for Caravaggio - it is competitive but not overly, in my opinion.

Caravaggio is young and progressive and has always looked imperious in every race he's run and won. I was impressed with the ground he made up on Harry Angel from the 2f pole; his present price is skinny but he has always delivered. My main concern is not his ability but the monkey on his back, and I hope Moore does not do a "Rhododendron" ie complacent and over confident.
By:
Figgis
When: 12 Jul 17 13:21
I have Caravaggio 3lbs clear of the rest at these weights on track form. But if the horse who had the previous fastest time always won there'd be no race betting. After watching Caravaggio's trial I thought he might go backwards from it but he didn't and ran right up to his 2yo best last time. I still see this as a problem going forward as he hasn't improved at all from last year in my view and he was all out last time. I reckon there's now an odds on chance he won't run to form next time and would estimate it at 1/2 that he doesn't run his race. I backed Harry Angel last time against him but he had a tough race and I'll be leaving him here. I also backed Tasleet last time and while I don't think he was given the best of rides I have that race as a bit below par for a Gp1. The winner, The Tin Man, is a horse with a fine turn of foot but so far he hasn't been able to produce it in a race run in a true Gp1 time. Last year's Champion Sprint Stakes wasn't run in a fast time. I wouldn't rule out him improving again but won't be backing him.

I thought Brando's Ayr Gold cup win last year was equal to a Gp2 performance. It wouldn't have taken a lot of improvement this year to see him take a Gp1 but he's been below par so far. He made hard work of winning the Abernant, which on paper he should've won comfortably. Then ran poor last time when bleeding. I think he could be a danger to all at a big price if getting his act together again but his recent form is a big worry. If Limato can return to last year's winning form he looks the most likely to benefit if Caravaggio runs below par. I have his Diamond Jubilee third 12lbs below his mark when winning this race last year so there's a fair bit of improvement needed but it was an encouraging run. I'll probably wait to see how Limato looks on the day but at the moment my intention is to lay Caravaggio.
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 12 Jul 17 16:58
Joined: 07 Sep 15 | Topic/replies: 4,321 | Blogger: impossible123's blog

I'm not a jockey basher


But you consistently question his ability and judgement to the exclusion of all other jockeys.
By:
brigust1
When: 12 Jul 17 17:51
I wouldn't take too much notice of the times between the Commonwealth Cup and the Golden Jubilee because the former was run into a headwind.

What AOB runs could be important here because there is only one possible front runner and that is Harry Angel. He could have an uncontested easy lead with so many hold up horses. So if AOB hasn't planned for that he could make all. I'm sure that AOB will know this but a steady early pace will also not suit Limato. Last year they went fast early and he bolted up. I think Limato needs the right ground and an end to end gallop.

After what happened at Ascot I'm sure Clive Cox will be wary of his horse over racing and plan accordingly. If Harry Angel blasts off the dip may help him but if he takes them all along with him it will definitely help Limato and Caravaggio.
I'm considering a small bet on Limato because I backed him at Ascot and maybe a longer priced bet on Caravaggio in running. If AOB has something up his sleeve Moore need not sit too close and he may trade at a more sensible price than his SP, in running. If he doesn't and he wins it costs nothing and if he loses at least he was backed at a more sensible price.
By:
brigust1
When: 12 Jul 17 19:27
Just to clarify this is the July course so it is not the same dip as the Rowley mile. There is a downhill run before initially before a final uphill furlong to the finish so this is not like Ascot and is much less demanding.
By:
impossible123
When: 12 Jul 17 19:36
I did not realise there was a head wind in the running of the Commonwealth Cup. Also unlike you I'm no aficionado about the layout of racecourses.

AOB has 5 entered and one is Intelligence Cross, the horse that was ridden to try and light-up Harry Angel in the Commonwealth Cup up the rials, and I do not expect any different. I hope Moore will sit Caravaggio close to the pace but infront of Limato and no more than 2l behind Harry Angel if the latter takes the field along; Caravaggio shows he stays further than 6f, and so does Limato.

The Tin Man and Tasleet will no doubt come with a late run 2f or 1f out but Harry Angel must not be allowed a soft lead otherwise he could nick it whilst the other 3 principals were busy watching one another. I'm hoping the best horse will win, and no hard luck story for anyone; backed Limato last year but on Caravaggio this time at much bigger prices, fingers firmly crossed though.
By:
Figgis
When: 12 Jul 17 19:46
backed Limato last year

Yet oddly only banged on about Air Force Blue on the July Cup thread Wink
By:
Figgis
When: 12 Jul 17 19:53
Also Limato went off at 9/2 last year, must've been quite a long time ago that Caravaggio was available at much bigger prices for this race Confused
By:
roadrunner46
When: 12 Jul 17 22:05
never liked limato as a group 1 sprinter, I do think the trainer has messed the horse around regarding the trips it has run over.
will be a race to saviour this year with the promising 3yos taking part as well.
By:
brigust1
When: 12 Jul 17 23:39
I think that may be a bit unfair Roadrunner. Limato is a 6f older horse who needs top of the ground.

This is how difficult being his trainer is.

The first Gr1 race of the year is in Meydan so he went but unexpectedly it rained heavily.
The next 6f Gr1 race isn't until the Diamond Jubilee followed by the July Cup followed by the Sprint Cup at Haydock then the Champions Sprint at Ascot in October.
The last of these he is extremely unlikely to get his ground so if he is lucky he only has three races to target in the UK all season. There are no Gr1 races at 6f in France at all and at the Breeders Cup the 6f race is on dirt.

Last season he had to run Limato in the Lockinge to get a race into him before the Diamond Jubilee and to find out if he stayed a mile, even though the ground at Newbury in May is unlikely to be fast but he had to run to see if it would open more doors.
Then, would you believe it, it was too soft in the Diamond Jubilee so he never ran. To get a race into him before Haydock he ran him in the Nunthorpe over 5f which was too short and even then it rained, and guess what, he missed the Haydock Sprint because of soft ground so his season was now over.

All that was available was the Prix Foret over 7f and he won so he took him to the Breeders Cup and ran him in the only race he could which was over a mile, he finished 4th. His hands are completely tied most of the time and even now he may only just get his ground this coming Saturday.

At his ideal trip as a 6f sprinter Limato has run ten times, won six, finished placed in the Diamond Jubilee twice following not ideal preparations and been beaten twice on the wrong ground. Of his other six starts he has run three times over 7f winning a Gr2 and a Gr1 and being 2nd in a Gr1. He has run once over 5f and finished 2nd in a Gr1 and twice over a mile which is too far for him.

That is not a bad record with the available cards Henry has to play I think. With no more rain expected before Saturday you dismiss him at your peril.
By:
brigust1
When: 12 Jul 17 23:41
He finished 6th at the Breeders Cup, not 4th.
By:
roadrunner46
When: 13 Jul 17 01:09
you make a good point about the trainer, when reading the form and just looking at a horses profile, all that stuff about, they had to do this and that to get a run and whatever, just isn't apart of form reading for me. maybe that's essential regarding the top
class group races, that kind of thinking. requires too much brain energy for me.
By:
brigust1
When: 13 Jul 17 06:20
It's too much for me as well RR.Wink He never ran in the DJ twice it was the Commonwealth Cup and the Diamond Jubilee he was placed in. But it does highlight how difficult it can be if your horse is both trip and ground dependent.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 13 Jul 17 10:33
Candy has always been a superb trainer of sprinters for me going back to the likes of Elbio. Limato set to do a Right Boy for me and win the July Cup 2 years running.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 13 Jul 17 10:52
sorry, Makin trained Elbio. Just wrote that for you shrewdies to pounce on it
By:
impossible123
When: 13 Jul 17 11:23
Th final decs are in: 10 have been declared; AOB running Caravaggio and Intelligence Cross only, drawn 2 and 3 respectively; the other major principals all stand their ground too.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 13 Jul 17 11:53
And Limato drawn 1
By:
impossible123
When: 13 Jul 17 12:16
Harry Angel is drawn 6 with Tasleet 5 and The Tin Man 10. Very possibly Intelligence Cross will race up with Harry Angel leaving a gap for Caravaggio and Limato on the inside (assuming the stalls are positioned accordingly) and Tasleet and The Tin Man on the outside; poor Harry Angel getting shot at from both sides late in the race, I'd think.
By:
brigust1
When: 14 Jul 17 09:53
We know the draw and we know the ground should suit everyone. What we don't know is how the race will be run. The first 4.5 furlongs are downhill with a sharp gradient to the line. Looking at the draw I guess Intelligence Cross will go on with Caravaggio behind and Harry Angel upsides IC sharing the lead. I see little point in Kirby restraining HA because Caravaggio, the horse he will want to beat has plenty of pace. For this reason, on the faster track, I think Kirby will let him run. What happens next we don't know. If Kirby sits upsides IC keeping Caravaggio in behind Moore may have decisions to make because, if he does drop in, the other fast horses Tasleet, Limato and The Tin Man will not be letting him out any time soon. If Beggy pulls off the rails to let Caravaggio through there will be murder. If IC doesn't do what he did at Ascot and Caravaggio tracks HA the others will have to keep tabs and stay close and it will just be a straight fight.
In summary I think it will be a fast run race which will suit Limato, he must have a fast pace, and Caravaggio could get into trouble with the pack around him so he may trade a good deal better in running than his SP. My heart tells me to back Limato but my head tells me to back Caravaggio so I will be backing Limato with and without the favourite and Caravaggio at a few bigger prices in running. Good luck. Newmarket here we come.
By:
roadrunner46
When: 14 Jul 17 12:57
this race has to be one of the strongest group 1 sprints, ive seen in the last 5 years to be run, with coolmoore seemingly running a spoiler again, if that one blocks in carravgio, looking forward to see how harry angel gets on in the race, hopefully gets out fast
and grabs the rail, harry angel might have to wait until next year to land a group 1 race. think the older horses will just have the
edge in this race, sprinters get better with age and are usually stronger. the 3 yos are making this a very interesting race.

goodluck just watching race for me
By:
dunlaying
When: 14 Jul 17 20:24
Brando is a big price considering his form with The Tin Man . You have to forgive his last run but 33/1 is tempting e/w.
By:
dunlaying
When: 14 Jul 17 20:25
And Caravaggio looks plenty short enough at 11/10.
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 15 Jul 17 10:48
Backed Caravaggio in win doubles and a treble with Enable and Mutakayyef but I think he could possibly be vulnerable over this sharper six furlongs and will also back Limato each way.
By:
knavesmire007
When: 15 Jul 17 11:18
Caravaggio moves like a horse,with that knee action that suits a flatter track.
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Jul 17 13:37
I suppose there's the chance of any race being run at a less than true pace but it's very rare for it to happen in this race. All the runnings this century have been run at a fast pace and the last time I can remember the pace probably affecting the result was all those years ago when Green Desert won, with Last Tycoon being given a uninspired ride from the back, and yes I backed Last Tycoon. So really I don't see it as something to concentrate on here and it's just a straightforward question of which will perform best on the day. In my view, apart from those occasional sprinters who are steadily improving most of them are unable to repeat their top efforts continuously more than two or three times at the most, unless they are so far ahead of the opposition that they are able to win comfortably. Most of these events are fast run so take quite a lot out of the horses.

I think any of the top six in the betting have the potential to win even though I have doubts about them all. Caravaggio clearly has the best chance on form but I reckon there's a 1/2 probability he won't repeat his best form today so I've laid him.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 15 Jul 17 16:41
No pace in the race, as feared.
By:
roadrunner46
When: 15 Jul 17 16:43
wd figgis, looked below par today carravagio, all the talk about it being unbeatable, GET IN THERE HARRY ANGEL,
HES PROVED HES THE NUMBER 1 SPRINTERHappy always been a big fan of the dark angel family
By:
Figgis
When: 15 Jul 17 17:04
Ta roadrunner. Yes, those who were wary of a slow early pace were proved right after all. Surprised they didn't set a faster gallop on Intelligent Cross. Maybe they were more interested in marking Harry Angel rather than setting a faster pace for their favourite. Although personally I don't think Caravaggio was winning today whatever the pace. O'Brien played down the sweating in the paddock but to me Caravaggio didn't look as well in himself overall today as he had at Ascot. Although the pace was slower than usual, for me the pace didn't alter the result, Harry Angel was always travelling like the best horse and was a deserved winner on the day.
By:
Jack Bauer '24'
When: 15 Jul 17 17:11
I think the race was totally ruined by the slow pace. Top class sprints should be run at a decent pace. I was really looking forward to this race but it turned out to be unsatisfactory.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 15 Jul 17 17:14
It's a constant imponderable - pace or lack of - even in a G1 sprint. John Smiths Cup was the same today - no pace whatsoever.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 15 Jul 17 17:26
HARRYCool
By:
impossible123
When: 15 Jul 17 17:49
With this defeat Caravaggio could run another one or two races more before taking up stud duty, I'd imagine.

Well done to backers and connections, but no Sheikh Mo though, I'd why.
By:
unclepuncle
When: 15 Jul 17 18:17
The favourite was struggling a long way out and it will be interesting to see if he runs again as there aren't really many races for him. With the Nunthorpe clearly too sharp and the Haydock Sprint also on a very sharp track I'd have thought a step up in trip for the Foret, QEII or the Breeders Cup Mile might be the only options.
Won't be in the least bit surprised if they make an excuse for him and pack him off to stud pronto.
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