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Tingle Creek

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Replies: 82
By:
dunlaying
When: 04 Dec 14 11:18
I doubt that there will be much between Balder Succes,God's Own and Oscar Whisky. The price sways me towards Oscar Whisky of that trio.
But Somersby will think it is his birthday with nothing of the calibre of Sprinter Sacre,Sire De Grugy,Al Ferof or Sizing Europe to contend with. I think he is worth a little e/w at 8/1.
By:
layingisthewayforward
When: 04 Dec 14 15:39
10 declared :

Balder Success
Gods Own
Oscar Whiskey
Vukovar
Somersby
Dodging Bullets
Hinterland
Third Intention
Williams Wishes
Pepite Rose
By:
ThunderRoad
When: 04 Dec 14 15:45
Balder Succes & Gods Own worthy favourites.

But, Somersby will be extremely fit now, back down at his favourite trip; arguably the second best 2 mile chaser of last season. Strong pace hopefully, could battle on and go close. 9/1 is fair.

Third Intention looked a revelation down in trip. Jumps well, could steal a march? 25/1 looks juicy.

William's Wishes ran respectively on reppearance after injury. Prior to that, was shaping into a Champion Chaser. Small saver @ 25/1.
By:
opatcho
When: 04 Dec 14 17:23
Third Intention for me now that Mad Moose wasnt declared :(
By:
peatysandy
When: 04 Dec 14 18:23
OW is a joke. Ran twice in world hurdle and now at the age of 9 is back to 2m. If i was the owner on captain conan i'd want to know why he's not running. Genuine 2 miler with top form at the track and was a last minute job running in it last year.
By:
ACStafford
When: 04 Dec 14 21:15
I thought Captain Conan wasn't ready to race yet after the injury he picked up last season?
By:
peatysandy
When: 05 Dec 14 06:52
You may be right ACS, i just think he hasn't been trained for the race. Josses Hill not running in the Henry VIII either? Not entered for anything other than the Arkle. Anyway i digress from the thread. OW running in this has similarities to last year when CC was thrown in when SS was taken out.
By:
buddeliea
When: 05 Dec 14 07:12
Yeh,i get what you say Peaty.Ive said before what a mess Hendo has made with the campaigning of OW.
Hes many times said hes an inbetween horse(2and halfm).
They tried to win the WH and was apparent he was out his comfort zone getting well beat,and then had another go!!
Hes now back at 2m,and obviously cos no SS or SDG,so trying to nick a big one.At least it will be a distance that the horse will be fine at,but he aint a 2miler for sure.......as his trainer admits.
I could accept a 2m hurdle race on soft ground...that's what I believe he should have been running in as a  hurdler,and on decent ground he should always be running at 2 and a half mile.
To be honest I think he should still be hurdling. Yes he has done pretty well in general over fences,but I don't think hes a natural over them,and at 2m will get found out,unless his jumping suddenly improves,and it will have to around a course like Sandown.
Hes omne of my favourites and I always want him to run well,and will want that again tmrw,but I really don't think he should be there.
Having said all that,he probably bolts up tmrw.Laugh
By:
buddeliea
When: 05 Dec 14 07:21
Just to add:
As much as I love the horse,i don't think I would want our premier 2m chase outside the festival won by a 2 and  a half miler.
By:
FELTFAIR
When: 05 Dec 14 19:00
The clock says a three horse race, Balder Success,Gods Own and Dodging Bullets.

Think Balder Success can reverse the Exeter form with Gods Own on 7lbs better terms so I will be backing the former and Dodging Bullets.
By:
Ibrahima Sonko
When: 05 Dec 14 21:40
I cant decide between Gods Own & Oscar Whiskey Plain
By:
SEATHESTARS....NO1
When: 05 Dec 14 21:53
Oscar Whiskey price wised! Good job i am on at 8s
By:
SEATHESTARS....NO1
When: 05 Dec 14 21:53
Though i admit i never have any bother getting on anyways Laugh
By:
buddeliea
When: 06 Dec 14 07:06
Thought he would have gone for Somersby,looked the most likely imo,and a likely winner and bit of value at 9.Solid performer at this level and will do for me. Hope OW runs well.
By:
Autocue
When: 06 Dec 14 08:00
Somersby has the form in the book and highest RPR. The others are a mix of potential and chancers. I'll back Somersby EW in case a superstar emerges from the younger brigade. I'll have egg on my face if it's Vukovar. I love the way he travels but don't understand the gamble on this race.
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Dec 14 10:35
Please hope that it's not abandoned!
By:
SEATHESTARS....NO1
When: 06 Dec 14 10:45
Shocked Scared
By:
Autocue
When: 06 Dec 14 11:08
Don't like the silence. Another inspection at 12? Shocked

Racecourse twitter feed at 09:22 this morning:
"6th December 2014 09:22:29 It's #TingleCreek Day and the weather has come up trumps!

Blush
By:
Autocue
When: 06 Dec 14 11:10
It's on. Happy
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 06 Dec 14 14:15
Somersby ew for me, good luck...
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Dec 14 14:34
No bet for me, hope Balder does it.
By:
buddeliea
When: 06 Dec 14 14:35
Have a sneaky feeling Pepite Rose might run a good race at big price.
By:
buddeliea
When: 06 Dec 14 15:59
Am absolutely shattered. Don't really know what to say about Oscar,except I really wish he had never gone chasing,and to be honest I think there were enough signs in his races for his trainer and owner to have realised chasing was not his game.
Sad
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Dec 14 16:28
Desperately sad about OW but I have no sympathy whatsoever for connections. Sorry. The horses was never suit by the the conditions of this race and I think they were just chancing it.
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Dec 14 16:29
* the horse was never suited
By:
Autocue
When: 06 Dec 14 18:30
Happy with Somersby. He's a good yardstick but tends to find one too good. Agree with the comments about poor Oscar Whisky. He owed connections nothing but they put him in the second best race for two mile chasers in his first ever two mile chase at the age of nine. Henderson deserves the heartache he will undoubtedly feel and it goes to show how desperate he is to win back the trainers' championship.
By:
shockster
When: 06 Dec 14 19:46
I feel gutted about Oscar, but this blaming the trainer and connections is going a bit far.  He fell quite early on and under no pressure, its the worst part of this sport and sadly fatalities occur too regular.  Oscar was a race horse doing what he loved.  This race was wide open, with no Sprinter or SDG, so they had a go, and no I didn't think he'd win, but it would not have been the greatest shock if he had taken the race would it.  However,  we all know what happened.  IMHO in this instance there is no blame attached, if he was 13 then maybe, but he was 9 and in his prime.  Its a really hard sport and if you want to follow it then sadly you have to accept that this will happen, no matter how hard that is to swallow.
By:
sintonian
When: 06 Dec 14 19:52
Agree with the nature of the sport etc but he, imo, was never the type of horse suited to it. The Owner would have played a big part in the decision to run too.
By:
shockster
When: 06 Dec 14 20:02
I get the fact that 2 miles was probably too sharp, but they had a go to win a grade 1 with no "real" star 2miler in the race. The only argument I would have is that they could have gone to Ireland tomorrow for the John Durkan over 2.5 miles for a grade 1 or the Peterborough. Just all very sad.
By:
SoYouThink
When: 06 Dec 14 21:04
I think it's an over reaction to blame the connections. Hindsight is a great thing. Horses have died in their ideal conditions before too.

Plus this was a race about 4f short of Oscar Whiskey's ideal trip plus it was a weak race. What about a stayer like Third Intention running in the race, there does not seem to be much aggro towards his connections.
By:
Autocue
When: 06 Dec 14 23:21
With respect that's bullsh!t. Read what buddelia was saying days before even the final entries were published. I did and hindsight proves he was talking sense. Third Intention started chasing at the age of 5 and has had plenty of experience of two mile chases, including around Sandown. The point you seem unable to grasp is that Oscar was put over fences late in life and was given his first experience of a two mile chase in the second best race of its type. Oscar raced today for prize money counting toward the trainers' championship. Don't underestimate the rivalry between Henderson and Nicholls. I certainly believe Henderson has a heart and trust he will be regretting his decision tonight.

Also I think Fry was lucky getting Vukovar back in his box. Another chancer with inadequate experience that I made my place lay of the day on Knight Commander's thread. However sentimental you might be, horses are used in this game.
By:
SoYouThink
When: 06 Dec 14 23:42
Autocue you are talking "bullsh!t- With Respect" !! Oscar Whiskey has had several races over fences by now mostly over a little further than today's race including some at the highest level. As I say hindsight is a great thing. Doesn't matter what Buddelia says - can he predict what horses if any will be injured tomorrow?

Shockster's summary of today's race has been the most accurate on this thread
He fell quite early on and under no pressure, its the worst part of this sport and sadly fatalities occur too regular.  Oscar was a race horse doing what he loved.  This race was wide open, with no Sprinter or SDG, so they had a go, and no I didn't think he'd win, but it would not have been the greatest shock if he had taken the race would it.
By:
Autocue
When: 06 Dec 14 23:49
OK, so you don't think Hendo threw Oscar into an unsuitable race in the hope that he'd grab a bit of prize money off Nicholls? Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Fact is Oscar never previously ran in a chase of less than two and a half miles and he now has a dead horse who might have had a chance to collect precious prize money in the Ryanair, so he's the loser in this and he'll be all too aware of it.
By:
SoYouThink
When: 07 Dec 14 00:02
The argument that he was wrong to run due to past jumping mistakes, 2m trip, etc would be a valid one if we didn't see dozens of horses running over inadequate distances and with jumping frailties every day of the week.

Every racecard is littered with bad jumpers and horses running at a trip above or below what's known to be their best. This would seem to be part of horse training culture and there's nothing seen to be wrong with it.

All the trainers do it including the top ones. Sad that Oscar Whiskey died today, yes, but wrong to run, no.

Autocue - talking about the horse collecting money in the Ryanair yet berating the trainer for running in a Tingle Creek.....hmmmm Surely the fraction of a stride faster they go in a G1 2m chase could not make such a difference
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 07 Dec 14 00:04
Geraghty is quoted as saying he thinks Oscar might have broken his leg on take off which you clearly can't legislate for, can't be a very pleasant experience for the jockey either and you can see Barry in the background of the camera shot holding the reins of the poor horse who is clearly agitated and frightened...does n't make comfortable viewing for anybody involved in the sport in anyway including punters.

Vukovar has an entry in the King George and Fry was quite open in stating that today was a bit of a voyage of discovery in terms of finding his optimum distance (whether a Grade One is an appropriate medium for such an exercise is a moot point) but they obviously think the horse is talented hence the ambitious entries, no idea what prompted the gamble on him in the week other than he's from a 'trendy' stable.

Third Intention is a strange one - said they were going to run him over 3 miles at Haydock, ran him over 2 miles there instead where he won a race that fell apart, hence the entry here.

And where was Uxizandre and (to a lesser extent) Cue Card today? Finally, Poole Master won the Sefton today despite not appearing to particularly like the experience when running over the National fences in the same race last year.

I would have prefered Oscar Whisky to run in the 2.5 mile (or thereabouts) handicap at Cheltenham next week but I don't condemn them for running today, there are many examples of horses running in the 'wrong' race from a punter's perspective but it's a bit like Henderson slagging me off for two horses that unseated in the Becher Chase today when he was n't privy to my thought processes (jockey's fault - would've been first and second otherwise obviously).
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 07 Dec 14 00:15
^backing two horses that unseated
By:
buddeliea
When: 07 Dec 14 08:38
I dont think Oscar was doing what he loved,i think he was doing what his connections told him to do.
For me he has never really looked comfortable over fences,just like he weren't at 3m over hurdles.

This is what I don't get:

He ran in the Churdle, ran well enough and was clear to all that he would be better over further. He then won 2 Aintree hurdles and pretty much campaigned around that sort of distance-fair enough, thats the horses optimum distance, and trainer kept telling us that. Not happy with that though, so lets take on Big Bucks. Again fair enough, give it a go, we can always step back if it don't work. It failed producing his worse ever run,taking him out his comfort zone, what do they do? have another go next year-same result. Ok now what? lets try chasing, quiet late in the day after many years hurdling but give it a go. He goes chasing and struggles to win small field chases at his optimum distance against horses he would pick up and carry over hurdles. That would tell me he aint as good as a chaser, and at that stage I would have thought the right thing to do would revert back to hurdling. Nope, lets persevere, so off to Cheltenham festival, falls at the 1st fence. This season runs a fair race in the Paddy power running on at the finish like a horse that is probably getting a tad further with age as a lot do, but still cannot beat Johns Spirit at level weights, another horse he would have thrashed over hurdles. What next? well we have a couple of chases coming up soon over his sort of distance-chelt and Huntingon, what do they do? run him in a 2m chase, the top 2m chase outside the festival at that.Now all the time they were messing about with his campaigning, not once did he ever go back to contest a top 2m hurdle race-they said he was not a 2 miler, ok I understand.
So what the heck was he doing lining up in the Tingle Creek???

Now I aint saying anyones to blame for the incident yesterday,it could happen anytime,and I certainly did not predict that outcome. What I did say was that imo he should not be anywhere near a top 2m chase,and all the evidence as to why not was clear to see by watching the horse over the years.
Had their star chaser been fit,OW would be running at Cheltenham next week,i have no doubt about that.
They tried to nick a big pot having the opinion that it might be a soft Grade 1, but they used a horse that by their own admission was not a 2miler,and was now looking more like a stayer, took him out his comfort zone....again!!and have paid the ultimate price.
No,they are not guilty as to what happened yesterday, but imo they are banged to rights as far as his campaigning is concerned, and that unfortunately has had the saddest of endings.

RIP old fella...you will be sadly missed.
By:
SoYouThink
When: 07 Dec 14 09:14
Those are fair points Buddelia. He was badly campaigned and that post highlights that. He was probably a victim of being "top-class" over an intermediate distance of 2m 4f but not top-class at the championship distances of 2m or 3m over either obstacle. He certainly seems to have been much more popular horse than I had thought too.
By:
shockster
When: 07 Dec 14 10:12
Agree also with your summing up Budd about campaigning of Oscar and it is very well put.  However, I really can't blame anybody for yesterdays tragic end. We'll have to agree to differ, but the end is sadly the same.
By:
buddeliea
When: 07 Dec 14 10:30
SYT, its a shame imo that we don't see the 2 and a half m distance as a championship distance at the highest level, as I do think their is an argument that over the years these sort of horses are just as classy...if not more than a lot of Gold Cup and World Hurdle winners.

Shock,
We aint really disagreeing on the blame factor mate,as I said above that sort of accident could happen anywhere at any time, and by all accounts was bit of a freak thing to happen, and we cannot put the blame on individuals in that scenario.
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