Sussex Stakes

yep, Darwin confirms the slow time, not your point Brigust

Richard Hughes was full of praise for the winner, saying: "I hit the final two furlongs at full belt and I knew it would take a good one to get by me.


"I knew Kingman was brilliant the way he went past me at Ascot. It was a different horse today and I got first run on him again off a slow pace and he has still beaten me."

Harry Herbert, racing manager for Toronado's owners Al Shaqag Racing, said: "It was always going to be a muddling affair and the way it panned out was probably the only way were we ever going to beat Kingman.

"For a moment I thought it looked like we would, we quickened off a slow pace and got away coming down the hill.

"But as soon as Kingman hit the level ground, whoosh. Hughesie told me he's never been as fast in a final furlong as he's just been in a Group One race.

Tactically they got it spot on, in my view.

"Olympic Glory will go for the Jacques le Marois so we'll see where he goes, there aren't many options. He'll probably end up in the Queen Elizabeth II but that is probably where the winner will go as well.

We should get a truly run race at Ascot. It will be interesting to see if Toronado can get closer to Kingman (on 3lbs better wfa terms) under those circumstances, I don't see it happening.

Sorry, 5lbs better wfa terms, only giving him 3lbs.

I think the proximity of Darwin to Toronado shows how far below form Toronado ran. If Hughes didn't think he would win and rode for 2nd place then he was correct, but only just.
I'm sorry RH but that is bo llox and you know it. Are you really saying Darwin is a shade below being a good one. Ridiculous comments and some people actually believe them.
They lost their bottle and were adamant they wouldn't lose 2nd place, and still they nearly did.

shows how far below form Toronado ran

So you're saying Toronado was below form?

Of course he ran below form. Darwin isn't a Gr1 horse he is barely a Group 3 horse. That means he is either running below form or the tactics were completely against. Some think the tactics were spot on so he must have run below form. You cannot have it both ways.

It was a slowly run race ffs! Only a complete amateur to the game or a halfwit would use beaten margins as a measure of form in such races.

If the proximity of Darwin is being used as a strict guide to the form then why has only Toronado been singled out as running below form? Kingman only finished 1 length and a head in front of him too? Has Kingman also run below form?

Don't go there Figgis. That is completely unnecessary. For some reason you lose it and become insulting. How about some respect and decency? We will have to see what the ratings say as to whether others think Toronado or Kingman ran below form.

I'm sorry RH but that is bo llox and you know it. Are you really saying Darwin is a shade below being a good one. Ridiculous comments and some people actually believe them.

Stop the hypocritical whining.

We will have to see what the ratings say

Why? You've said countless time you take no notice of ratings and rating horses is a waste of time.

Sadly Figgis you would start an argument in an empty room. I don't think Darwin is a Group 1 horse over any trip so RH's comments are silly.

You obviously don't agree with what your eyes tell yo so lets just wait and see if the ratings people say whether they ran to form or not. Apparently that's what you swear by.

I'm off now Fig. The room is empty.

see if the ratings people say whether they ran to form or not

Races are rated as far as the run of the race allows them to be. If a race is run in such a way that the margins are compressed it doesn't mean a horse ran below form, especially when it's recorded sub 11 secs for the last two furlongs of a race. Anybody should know that.

Brig, you really are th1ck as pig muck and have no idea whatsoever. If you are going to single out Toronado for running below form due to his proximity to Darwin then the same logic applies to all of them, and so meaning there is a reason why the distances were so close. You seem either unwilling to acknowledge it (probably because you have got Kingman wrong all season) or you have no idea what happened today.

It's not Figgis starting an arguement, it's you being a completely clueless berk and deliberately not acknowledging what happened just so you do not have to change your original opinion. A whopping ego and completely clueless.

Also, why bring ratings into the discussion when you've said you never take any notice of them. Clutching at straws aren't you to try and be clever.

It's like he has just started betting, Figgis. A 5yo would know more.

I know, sint. No shame in admitting you were wrong, in this game most of us are wrong more than we're right. I said before the 2010 Guineas that Canford Cliffs was an unlikely stayer, after his Greenham and Guineas efforts I was thinking I was right. However, I soon had to change that opinion after his performance in the Irish Guineas. I could've desperately tried to suggest that the Irish version was a weaker event and the following SJP was slowly run but I don't see the point in trying to prove an old opinion was right, getting it right in future matters more to me.

What tremendous speed Kingman has - must be as fast a miler as we've seen in years (Frankel aside). Incredibly slow race though and the form means nothing.

I've never seen such a slowly run Group 1 mile. Never. Kingman could easily win Group 1 sprint. Phenomenal in his own way.

Yet another very classy display from Kingman 2day,& well ridden from a young jock getting better all the time (J Doyle)
Great pre & post race "stuff" from "the brig". Go for a laugh if nothing else

If I can make one person smile as I pass along then my passing has not been in vain.

Hope the Cup is run in same Garden Party,' after you Jeremy , no after you Claude'   style as yesterdays Sussex
right up  Cavalryman's street  in his current  e/w  for me gl

current Form*

Integral runs in the Prix Rothschild on Sunday.. 3 other runners, the horse who finished 2nd to her at Ascot, plus Esoterique and Miss France.

The Cup looks wide open to me Mac. I would've backed Brown Panther but thought it looked a bit of a tired run  from him last time in France, I'd like to see him bounce back here but won't be backing him. I'm going for a lay of Estimate as I think the price is too short. She does well over 2m4f as a lot of horses don't stay the trip but I think there are a few here capable of beating her over 2m at their best.

I've had a small bet on Excellent Result. I think he has a good race in him if not today, some day soon.

And I've done my usual in these circumstances and laid off a lot shorter in running.

Well done, Mac, reckon he would've won whatever the tactics on that showing.

Yes well done Mac. I got me money back plus a bit but exposed or what? Next time he'll be half the price but with only the same chance.

spencer should get a ban there imo still flogging a beaten horse a furlong out...don't like to see that myself

And WD Figgis with the lay. He should have let him drop out but there you go.

Yes, thanks all, just glad  the second was a Stable companion as  cavalry man may have gone a little early, till he hung on

Harry Bentley went for a gap on Ahzeemah that was not there, cost him the win

Hillstar was bouncing LTO  but still the old boy beat him,  with the hot pot beaten .

Ta, Brigust. I thought she was vulnerable but that obviously wasn't her running anyway, probably the hard race at Ascot. Brown Panther also seemed to be feeling the effects of that race last time, makes me wonder how Leading Light will come out of it.

very surprised we are getting nearly 5-1 talent in the next...really fancy her today in quite a weak race...fav will be some mare to bounce back from her exertions in the gold cup and talent is just starting to come to hand

Leading Light looked more knackered than any horse I have seen post-race.

wd Mac, Fig.

well done figg and mac on the last by the way

Much too difficult a race for me, harry, looks tighter than most handicaps.

you weren't wrong figg...shame she just ran choke out...what a game mare that winner is

Yes, especially as she was also involved in that tough Gold Cup finish, hope she's ok.

yep she looked sore, should be ok...you don't see many that are so game, a pleasure to watch one knuckle down like that, especially if you were on!! so well done if you stuck with her, she certainly didn't let you down

will be still interested in talent with a tad more cut in the ground, thought she would get away with it against the opposition she was up against but hey ho

talent went 2.56 in the run as well, very surprised the clickers would of wanted her, especially after her running choke out like she did early in the race

We`ve all of a sudden gone from the Sussex Stakes to the Goodwood Cup. Can I therefore say I hope David Rudisha wins the 800 metres tonight

Oh, so that interloper  Dave is   elbowing his way in now  is he , well good luck to him

Tough card today. First two Group races have the right favourites but no value there for me. The King George Stakes looks another whoever's on a going day sprint. I'm laying Muteela in the Oak Tree Stakes as she's too short, imo. Think she'll need to improve again here, she's already had a couple of hard finishes and there are a few here who can beat her if on form.

The only thing I like about Muteela is that she will front run and drops back 1f from her last run which will suit her perfectly imo. But like you say she is just too short.

Yeah, would be a concern if the other jockeys are passive and let Fanning do what he wants in front (which they often do). Hopefully he will be pressed into setting a decent pace.

PP make Integral 8/11, 9/4 Miss France, 7/1 + for the other two.

I had a bet this morning on J Wonder at around 7s. Must have a blinding chance.

Yes, brigust, she's one of a few I think can win on a going day and looks fair value.

I think so Fig. I will be doing my usual late in running lay off at around 6/4. I don't mind giving a bit back to cover being robbed late on.

THE GOLD CHEONGSAM  is rated a few pounds below the best of these but is a year older and comes her fresh so may well have a say in it  , sometimes think the most unreliable ratings  are  nearly always  found in races confined to  fillies , see what happens , also like J wonder .

Mac, I have her a couple of pounds higher than the fav on these terms on her best form.

yes Fig, can believe you have, bit of a puzzle thus one.

Phew, well done brigust, nice pick.

Thanks. I think you thought it was a bet anyway.

Well done Brig and fig, power packed JF riding well, TGC ran moderately  , no way good enough , usually back  two or three in a race to make a little profit  so small bet on the winner luckily .

Nothing wrong with that Mac, Like Fig (well done with the lay) I couldn't see the favourite winning and there was really nothing else left. Thanks by the way. Very good day.

Well done Brig, even a blind pig finds the odd acorn.

Thanks Felt. I know you care really. That's drinks all round on me.

I`ll have a glass of wine thankyou.

Very disappointing run from Integral. Just thankful that the race cut up and she was too short to back. The ground was no softer than she handled at Newmarket last time. There wasn't much pace on but that wasn't an excuse, as she didn't expend too much energy early but just didn't finish her race. Maybe she just didn't travel over well but there was nothing encouraging about that performance and she just looked like a filly that's peaked.

Was disappointing. Prepared to forgive her one run though as she was hardly beaten far and back on home soil it could be a different ball game.

Yes, possibly, sint. Connections appeared confident about her chances so you'd assume she'd been showing the right signs since last time. Have to see if they find a reason and where they aim next. I just didn't like the way she finished her race, or didn't finish it, with conditions not enough of an excuse.

Yep, I though a slow pace would suit her the best but she got outspeeded by both the front two. On verdicts with Esoterique it is 2:1 in Eso's favour but one of those wins was a short-head when Integral was having her first run of the season. There is not much between them despite Eso looking quite authorative yesterday. That said, I would not bet against her next time if they face each other in the Sun Chariot or the Matron Stakes.

Andre Fabre believe Esoterique deserves a bit more respect after her easy victory in the Prix Rothschild at Deauville on Sunday.

The four-year-old beat Sir Michael Stoute's Integral for the second time this season, having already gained a narrow verdict over Cheveley Park Stud's classy filly in the Dahlia Stakes at Newmarket.

Esoterique had disappointed behind Integral in the Duke of Cambridge Stakes at Royal Ascot but bounced back to her best showing a smart turn of foot to beat her stablemate and 1000 Guineas winner Miss France.

"She had a bad tactical race at Ascot last time. She made the running and that is totally against her style," said Fabre, whose charge could potentially cross swords with Kingman in the Prix Jacques le Marois on August 17.

"She has raced against Integral three times now and that is the second time she has beaten her so I think she deserves respect. She had an interrupted preparation for Ascot.

"Curiously the handicapper had her rated 1lb above Miss France before the race and that is exactly how it turned out, so for once the handicapper got it right.

"Esoterique has a very good turn of foot and Miss France didn't really have an excuse. In terms of the race, everything went right for her.

"Esoterique will now go for the Jacques le Marois at Deauville, while Miss France will wait for September. I've entered both of them in the Sun Chariot this morning so they might come over to England for that."

Chris Richardson, managing director for Integral's owners Cheveley Park Stud, said: "She's finished third in a Group One, so you can't be too disappointed.

"It wasn't what we were expecting, but those four-runner races can do that to you. It was a tactical affair, they split into two groups and it was all a bit of a muddle.

"Ryan (Moore) said we should just put a line through it, so we'll move on and hopefully head for the Sun Chariot."

Can't blame Fabre for talking up his horse but Integral just wasn't the same filly yesterday. She hung left when asked to quicken and her kick from the 2f to the 1f pole just wasn't there like it had been in her previous two races. I can't go along with the excuse that it was the run of the race to blame.

Kingman goes for the Prix Jacques le Marois next in Deauville. You'd have to worry that by the time we get to the QEII in October he'll be feeling the effects of a long season and taking on fresher horses. He is superior to every other miler but depending on the opposition on the day he might be worth opposing. It will be his 7th race, and 6th at Group 1 level.

*this year

Sint, one thing in his favour is that his last 3 races have been run at a slow early pace, sprinting the last couple of furlongs shouldn't have taken as much out of him as if he's been involved in fast run races. So he's had luck on his side to enable him to cope with a long season. We'll have to see what happens in France but he may get the same scenario there. For all the talk about his fast sectionals and there's no doubt that with his run style he's exciting to watch,  performance wise I still don't rate him any higher than a typical Gp1 miler, very similar to Canford Cliffs, Toronado and many others. He may improve again but I'd like to take him on as I don't think he's quite the superstar he's been made out to be, the trouble is I haven't see anything worth opposing him with.

*as if he'd

For the record, I haven't recorded a pace profile anything like the Sussex for a G1 mile race. Even G1 5f races are not run like that race was. There might have been a G1 race run like that at some time in the past but off the top of my head I can't think of one.It was like a piece of interval training.Honestly, I don't know what to expect re. his next race as there's no precedent. Maybe it was harder than it looked because they reached very fast speeds.

Penultimate furlong in mph Kingman 44.0, Toronado 43.1 Darwin 42.98

Yes, I'm inclined to think fast overall time races take more out of horses than crawl/sprints, but you never know. I think the splits have to be put into context, they all ran very fast splits and they're all not that good, although Kingman obviously was fastest, but I can't remember the ground at Goodwood under Buckley being as fast as it was this year, plus they went slower early than for any Gp1 mile race I can remember, the final time wasn't even worth a rating on my scale. Sometimes you can get a visual impression of a horse having a hard race, however people will have different perceptions. For me, even though Kingman had to be really asked a question I didn't get the impression he was anything like all out. It wasn't just a case of a rider like Hughes sitting up/taking a pull just before the line giving the impression a horse won easier than it had, the horse looked very comfortable to my eyes, although you still don't know what minor undetected niggles a horse may experience after any race.

yes, heard that report 2day about Kingman poss going to run again in France this wkend.
He does seem to be thriving with his racing & did not take to much out of himself a G/wood in that 3f sprint. Strike while the iron is hot I say. Sure there could be a chance that he cries enough come Champions day (sint) lets hope that's not the case & he has 2months to freshen him up for it after this next race in France.

He'll be taking on Olympic Glory so at least there'll be some good opposition.

Agree about Kingmans last run possibly not taking so much out of him.

At least the main opposition will be ridden by Frankie and not Hughsie. Three times he has ridden against Kingman and three times he has crawled. Lets hope Frankie gives him a proper race but this is over a flat 7.95 furlongs so it should suit Kingman right down to the ground. Or perhaps he should save it until Ascot. We will see.

1/3 isn't the kind of price that would interest me but in no way do I think it overestimates Kingman's chance. I have him with 8lbs in hand of the field on these wfa terms. I just can't envisage any of them improving enough to bridge the gap. We know Kingman handles soft ground so basically it's all about whether Kingman runs his race or not.

I couldn't agree more Figgis. You know my thoughts so I don't have to repeat them. I just hope Frankie seizes the opportunity and makes it a proper test.

Hope so, only a fast run race will see the full benefit of that 8lbs advantage.

I have no problem with that. I just cannot see any other way of 'trying' to beat him. No bet for me though.
What did you think about Magician?

I rarely bet our horses in America unless they're specifically trained for the race or offer really good value. I said at the time that Magician was a well beaten horse in the King George before stamina came into play, so it was no surprise for me to see him beaten, although I didn't lay him.

looks like another tactical affair with very little guaranteed pace...anodin looks like the only real pace angle so if he doesn't make it another farce could ensue

well olympic glory imo is kingmans first real test since the guineas and on ground olympic does like on a straight track where he has a formidable record...

1-3 is tight in comparison with goodwood and if guaranteed pace to run at i could at least see kingman forced to find, it has to remembered olympic glory is unbeaten off the back of a lay off so has to be worth a stab ew today on ideal ground on a track he likes...am looking forward to actually seeing kingman forced to find and he will have to today imo 5.7 is a fair price

i lie - he was beaten a short head in this last year his only defeat off the lay off

If I was looking for value for the place I'd say Anodin, I don't think there's much between him and Olympic Glory on their very best 4yo form, much depends on the run of the race though so no bet for me.

I've always been of the belief that fillies/mares do better on really soft ground. Of course they have to be able to act on it first but generally being lighter framed than the boys and therefore able to get out of the ground better gives them an advantage. It is surprising the number of fillies/mares win in really soft ground and often at big prices.

The course looks shabby, as referred to be Fabre, but the ground doesn't look overly soft. There have been a couple of slowly run races and possibly the straight mile could be slower than the round course but using the 10f handicap as a guide it doesn't look any worse than good to soft.

*by Fabre

Love Kingman but decided to back both Anodin and Olympic Glory to be placed. If one places I`m in profit if they both place then even better.You know it makes sense.

Good tactical race by Frankie, beat the pacemaker anyway. What was he thinking?

Well done, Felt.

Yes well done Felt. Didn't read your post first. There are often other bets to be had in these races. It's just trying to suss them out. I thought about backing Rizeena at 30s then laying off in running but thought if something did go on she might not get into it. As it was she traded at 3s in running. Won like a good thing though and that's what matters in betting.

olympic very disappointing...

kingman just looking a cut above...shame there really isn't a decent colt to challenge him atm but shouldn't deter from what a good colt he is...wd if you turned a profit on the race

very impressive again - they went a crawl but he still put clear daylight between him and the rest

if he ever gets a strongly run race he could achieve a very impressive mark

Just a class act over 1mile (which he gets well)
Keeps his form to Ascot (Oct) & it will be more of the same.
Diff Class

At least they went quicker than the Sussex stakes allowing Kingman to show his superiority. Off a strong pace he'll smash them by a wide margin.