Horse Antepost
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02 Jan 13
20:55
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Date Joined:
28 Jun 10
It's like groundhog day every year. Paradoxically its reminiscent of Harchibald. Very good performances elsewhere see the lemmings rushing over the cliff when the the truth is that Cheltenham isn't his course and never will be.
His class saw him home one year but lightening rarely strikes twice in the same place.
His class saw him home one year but lightening rarely strikes twice in the same place.
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Didn't really have the ideal prep last year....I mean at one point there was the fairly decent possibilty of him being out for the season altogether. From I remember the Irish Champion was pretty rushed stuff on Mullins'part. So maybe there's cause for a more upbeat attitude towards him this year.
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Cheltenham isnt his course and never will be....hmm....having been right opposite the winning post when he flew up the hill and won a champion hurdle I would disagree...
Reminiscent of Harchibald? Even more nonsense |
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Mullins made an @rse of it last year - not like him lol
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Ballydoyle
I think you must have been watching a different race from me. I did see him all out to repel Peddler's with Thousand Stars close enough up. If it is flying up the hill you want then I suggest you have a look at Istabraq winning by a dozen lengths or Rooster Booster smashing his field. By the way if you don't understand a word like paradoxical don't be ashamed. Just ask. |
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He looked quite impressive last time out, better than his seasonal debut, but there is nothing like Solwhit in behind him this year. I think the form of the Bula is the race to concentrate on, Zark,Grand,RoR.
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Can't see a horse of his age winning and there are better horses in opposition compared to when he won the race. Best of the Irish no doubt and very adept at beating the same horses over there every so often but beaten fair and square last year and can't see why he should beat last year's winner. Agree about the Bula form but not really sure how to evaluate it. Got a feeling that Grandouet might be the one on the day but got my fingers crossed for Rock On Ruby to do the double.
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I remember hearing the same around me stood by the rail in 2011
Feel free to lay us lemmings a decent price though.. |
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I did last year, he just keeps beating the same old second rate Irish slow boats like Thousand Stars etc but when it came to a proper race against top notchers last March he was found wanting. Peddlars Cross hardly a top notcher so you could expect to win that race.
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I have to admit (though nobody will remember) but before last year's apparent imminent victory, I was favourably comparing Hurricane Fly to Istabraq
 After the disappointment of last year I felt foolish but there's still a chance he can redeem himself and piss-up aqainst superior opponents than the great Istabraq faced, and come March, I mightn't look so silly  For all the problems he's faced in his career, his record stands the closest inspection. As for Harchibald...I don't give a shít what anyone thinks, as at his peak, he's superior to most Champion Hurdlers and the dice never fell his way come the big day. He had soft ground to contend with on his disappointing runs at the Festival on the occasions he made the gig, but the one time the ground was in his favour, his preparation was fraught with difficulties - he played his part in one of the greatest finishes I've ever seen in the game, so maybe people should go a bit easy on him. Few racing fans will recall that he was around 2/1 after winning the Xmas Hurdle in fantastic style from Rooster Booster, and without a run, his price lengthened to around 14/1 in the preceding Festival week, though he shortened to around 8's on the day. How many hurdlers can anyone name that they'd confidently believe were better than Harchibald at his best? I think we might be trawling back to the days of Bird's Nest and it's ironic as they were similar types. |
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Quality fishing
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As for Harchibald...I don't give a shít what anyone thinks, as at his peak, he's superior to most Champion Hurdlers and the dice never fell his way come the big day.
He had soft ground to contend with on his disappointing runs at the Festival on the occasions he made the gig, but the one time the ground was in his favour, his preparation was fraught with difficulties - he played his part in one of the greatest finishes I've ever seen in the game, so maybe people should go a bit easy on Spot on my friend. |
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And official ratings don't lie. He never attained anything better than 162, the first 3 in this season's Bula were all rated above that, many in last year's Champion Hurdle were rated higher and there's nothing anywhere to say he was superior to most Champion Hurdlers. He was verey adept at beating horses inferior to himself in small fields or who were not ideally suited by that scenario, eg. Rooster Booster in the Christmas Hurdle but his other victory at Kempton was over Snap Tie. Grade 1 vistories in Ireland over such great horses as Ansar hardly set the pulse racing either and he has no Grade 1 vistory in a big field and fast pace. He was good given ideal conditions but in the races which matter he was always found out and can never be considered a great.
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Great horses don't need the dice to fall their way, they win in spite of adversity.
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Harchi was very adept at beating horses that didn't have anything left at the end of their race, he had that eye-catching strong travelling way about him but couldn't pick up off that if whatever he was up against had a bit of fight left in them, being cruel I'd point to the defeat by straw bear at kempton as a shining example of his frailties....straw bear!!!
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Well imo the CH of 2005 was one of the best and had 3 horses that tied all the form of that era.
Harchibald beat a CH winner and a tough one at that,and just failed to beat a better winner and even tougher one. Maybe not a great,his race record tells us that,but at his best,which i admit werent often,but WHEN on his game,he was as talented a hurdler as ive ever seen. |
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So how is he superior to most Champion Hurdlers? If hurdling was a test of staying on the bridle for 14 furlongs with no requirement to go any quicker at the end of the race than you were early on then he'd be an all time great.
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Put it this way,if those CH horses had been in that race in 2005,i honestly think he would have beaten most of them that day.I thought Rooster Booster was one of the best CHurdle winners ive seen,then Hardy beat him,and Hardy was a serious CH horse imo
He could not go any faster than he was already going his speed at the end of that race was enough to beat Brave Inca,and very nearly Hardy Eustace. Anyway,this happens every year,the Harchibald debate,and its never sorted,its for him and against him,and whatever we say we never change peoples views on the horse,and probably never will. |
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Put it this way,if those CH horses had been in that race in 2005,i honestly think he would have beaten most of them that day.I thought Rooster Booster was one of the best CHurdle winners ive seen,then Hardy beat him,and Hardy was a serious CH horse imo
He could not go any faster than he was already going his speed at the end of that race was enough to beat Brave Inca,and very nearly Hardy Eustace. Anyway,this happens every year,the Harchibald debate,and its never sorted,its for him and against him,and whatever we say we never change peoples views on the horse,and probably never will. |
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree but it's the debate about the good horses and having our own opinion which adds to our enjotment and sometimes financial benefits from the sport.
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yes mate,we have a lot to be thankful for with these horses.
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I have to endorse Budd's final point when he states: "it's either for him or against him, and whatever we say, we can't change people's views on the horse, and probably never will"
I'm not saying he was flawless, but he was easily the most charismatic horse (and my favourite) I've seen, and if you're not moved by him picking up Rooster Booster in the 2004 Xmas Hurdle (or his leap at the last flight) then you may as well take up crown green bowling instead! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmzbEW1oSWc - Never seen a race like it! That era of Harchibald, Mac's Joy, Rooster Booster, Hardy Eustace & Brave Inca was the most fascinating since the late 70's - also, the last pair were the bravest hurdlers I think I've ever seen in well over 30 years following this sport...absolute warriors, yet they were the enemy to me & Harchibald! For some ballsacs in the media with their slide-rules, protractors & spring dividers to be spouting utter shíte that they were a poor bunch of hurdlers because they weren't officially 170+ performers, is totally ignorant and disgraceful too! They lit up the hurdling scene after Istabraq and it was far more enjoyable watching them fight things out than 'tolerating' a great (in Istabraq) winning walkovers at 1/7 - After the Sea Pigeon era, there was a big down-turn on the hurdling scene for many years...Harchibald & Co. rekindled that interest for many of us. |
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PS - Binocular achieved official ratings into the 170's...I know who I MUCH prefer - ALL the ones I named in my previous post!
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Hurricane wasnt right last yr and finished 3rd, ruby will ride him and win.
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If he wasn't right they were making some bloody positive noises after the Irish Champion Hurdle. I remember Mullins saying he was really impressive at Leopardstown, as good as he'd ever been and plenty on here were comparing him to Istabraq. If you think he's that good there are big enough prices on here and with the bookies to pay your mortgage off, have a few nice holidays, new car, etc. He's obviously one with some sort of chance but this is a very open race and there's not one piece of form to suggest he's ahead of anything in the race and he's now 9.
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He was below his best in last years CH, it wasn't some thing that had been ailing him before hand though, it was something that simply knocked the edge off him that week along with other mullins horses, he was fine in his race before, as ruby said, he destroyed OW that day but struggled to get past him at the festival...simple as that.
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When people say wasn't right last year, it should say wasn't right that week.
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4-6 last year so the 7-2 still available is mahooooosive
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Personally I was happier to lay the odds on last year.
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I wasn't commenting on his style of running or relative merit which is why I used the word paradoxical. You touch on my issue. He is great on less undulating tracks than Cheltenham such as Leopardstown and Punchestown. This is where I draw my comparison. Every year Harchi would put in a sparkling effort at another course and the cry went up. He never quite got the win at Cheltenham that his talent deserved.
So fast forward to 2012/13 and Hurricane comes back and once again does what he has been doing to the Irish runners of the last 3-4 years by about the same margin and people are going into overdrive about his chances on what, as you also say, is not his ideal course at Cheltenham. Last year you made the point that a slight diminution in his powers was also a factor. Obvious point: He's another year older. So you back up pretty all my comments which you then describe as ridiculous. |
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Using harchi as some sort of comparison to HF with regards to the over hype applied to them I simply don't get, because at the end of the day you are talking about a horse in the fly that has delivered on the big day in the big race, if you want to accept that but then go on to say "yes, he did win but was he as good as elsewhere", (particularly when in the style of his win he came there travelling like a dream and ran all the way to the long powerfully) doesn't make any sense, the fact that peddlers went with him to the long doesn't detract from the flys performance on the day and more importantly doesn't suggest that he under-performed or didn't like it as much, just a simple study of the way he travelled through the race shows that very clearly.
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long= line
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Another point that seems to have gone unmentioned is that NH performers over two miles (hurdles & chasers) really do seem to struggle for speed when ageing...Hurricane Fly is NINE now, so he's entitled to be wilting a bit if it is to be the case.
Sea Pigeon & Moscow Flyer were ELEVEN and they are notable exceptions to a fair rule...they were exceptional performers though. My fingers will be crossed for Hurricane Fly to deliver in March, but realistically, he's had a few troubles in his career, and as many suspect, Cheltenham's exertions mightn't suit him too well, and it might've just been his class & tenacity that got him home two years ago - maybe he 'remembered' those rigours last year? Then again, that possibility is tempered by the fact that his next run was arguably his most impressive (to the eye) which would suggest he took the Champion Hurdle victory in his stride. |
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Harchi really needed real decent ground,the watering policy did him no favours.
Had he got his ground i think he would have won a CHurdle,or certainly been very close again. |
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Eternaloptimist: Punchestown is nothing if not very undulating
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Some interesting points gentlemen. I'm enjoying the debate:
Duffy I think you have to ask yourself why he has only been seen twice in this country? There isn't as much to go on to form an opinion because he keeps turning up in three horse races for much less money in Ireland than he could earn here. There has to be a reason for that. Leaving that aside for a moment though I also take issue with how you see his performance when he won. He won and you can't take that away from him but given how we know that he finds when let down in Ireland do you not find it at all surprising that having been running all over them jumping the second last that he scrambled home? Do you not find the proximity of Thousand Stars surprising given that he beats that same horse on the bridle by a similar distance in Ireland? Does the proximity of Clerks Choice not hold the form down in your view? It is also noticeable that my naked eye view of how he performed seems to tally with his career RPR's and top speed ratings. He does what he does easier in Ireland and the question remains in my mind will he relish the thought of going back there at nine? |
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Harchinative
I don't think you can partially invalidate a paradox. If you do I'd imagine it ceases to be paradoxical. My comparison is relating to the lemmings and cliff. Given the variables, performances have to be relative and so very good is as useful a term as any I think. Had I said one was good and one was very good that would have been a comparison. Even so, if comparing, we aren't comparing a pit pony against Pegasus. Harchibald had some very good form in the book and a higher top speed rating and close enough RPR to make comparisons valid. He was also regularly willing to come to these shores to run in real races and was hampered by missing some of his best years. Also not forgetting that he just missed out in arguably the strongest renewal of the champion this century. The specific year I'm referring to was in the 2008 champion. Given his age and the fact that he couldn't get home on good ground at his best Harchibald had no right being third favourite for the champion. Unfortunately people were sucked in by his two runs on easy 2 mile tracks earlier that season. That's your comparison. |
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Slabster
I've never been to Punchestown so I'd be lying if I said I could give you a first hand topographical statement but from what I've seen it seems more to be a slightly easier Sandown or Carlisle type track with it climbing from just before the beginning of the straight and then onto the far side where it begins the descent rather than a genuinely undulating course. I certainly don't think it can be compared to Cheltenham's old course where even when you do appear to get a flatter part it still upsets the rhythm of horses by being truly undulating with constant small rises and falls in the terrain. |
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Just to be clear the race was 2005 in case people thought I was referring to 2008 as being arguably the strongest.
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the question was why are they raving about hurricane fly,are they im not sure they are this year,is he as good as sea pigeon , haton grace,simple surely answer is no, so at his age he wont be winning any champion hurdle this year,are there any, see you then,persian wars, istabraq, comedy of errors in this , i doubt it, so there the answer look at the horses aged 6,7,or 8thats where you will find winner.
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