Why are so many raving about Hurricane Fly?

Didn't really have the ideal prep last year....I mean at one point there was the fairly decent possibilty of him being out for the season altogether. From I remember the Irish Champion was pretty rushed stuff on Mullins'part. So maybe there's cause for a more upbeat attitude towards him this year.

Cheltenham isnt his course and never will be....hmm....having been right opposite the winning post when he flew up the hill and won a champion hurdle I would disagree...

Reminiscent of Harchibald? Even more nonsense

Mullins made an @rse of it last year - not like him lol

Ballydoyle

I think you must have been watching a different race from me. I did see him all out to repel Peddler's with Thousand Stars close enough up. If it is flying up the hill you want then I suggest you have a look at Istabraq winning by a dozen lengths or Rooster Booster smashing his field.

By the way if you don't understand a word like paradoxical don't be ashamed. Just ask.

He looked quite impressive last time out, better than his seasonal debut, but there is nothing like Solwhit in behind him this year. I think the form of the Bula is the race to concentrate on, Zark,Grand,RoR.

Can't see a horse of his age winning and there are better horses in opposition compared to when he won the race. Best of the Irish no doubt and very adept at beating the same horses over there every so often but beaten fair and square last year and can't see why he should beat last year's winner. Agree about the Bula form but not really sure how to evaluate it. Got a feeling that Grandouet might be the one on the day but got my fingers crossed for Rock On Ruby to do the double.

I remember hearing the same around me stood by the rail in 2011

Feel free to lay us lemmings a decent price though..

I did last year, he just keeps beating the same old second rate Irish slow boats like Thousand Stars etc but when it came to a proper race against top notchers last March he was found wanting. Peddlars Cross hardly a top notcher so you could expect to win that race.

I have to admit (though nobody will remember) but before last year's apparent imminent victory, I was favourably comparing Hurricane Fly to Istabraq
After the disappointment of last year I felt foolish but there's still a chance he can redeem himself and piss-up aqainst superior opponents than the great Istabraq faced, and come March, I mightn't look so silly

For all the problems he's faced in his career, his record stands the closest inspection.

As for Harchibald...I don't give a shít what anyone thinks, as at his peak, he's superior to most Champion Hurdlers and the dice never fell his way come the big day.

He had soft ground to contend with on his disappointing runs at the Festival on the occasions he made the gig, but the one time the ground was in his favour, his preparation was fraught with difficulties - he played his part in one of the greatest finishes I've ever seen in the game, so maybe people should go a bit easy on him.

Few racing fans will recall that he was around 2/1 after winning the Xmas Hurdle in fantastic style from Rooster Booster, and without a run, his price lengthened to around 14/1 in the preceding Festival week, though he shortened to around 8's on the day.

How many hurdlers can anyone name that they'd confidently believe were better than Harchibald at his best?
I think we might be trawling back to the days of Bird's Nest and it's ironic as they were similar types.

Quality fishing

As for Harchibald...I don't give a shít what anyone thinks, as at his peak, he's superior to most Champion Hurdlers and the dice never fell his way come the big day.

He had soft ground to contend with on his disappointing runs at the Festival on the occasions he made the gig, but the one time the ground was in his favour, his preparation was fraught with difficulties - he played his part in one of the greatest finishes I've ever seen in the game, so maybe people should go a bit easy on


Spot on my friend.

And official ratings don't lie. He never attained anything better than 162, the first 3 in this season's Bula were all rated above that, many in last year's Champion Hurdle were rated higher and there's nothing anywhere to say he was superior to most Champion Hurdlers. He was verey adept at beating horses inferior to himself in small fields or who were not ideally suited by that scenario, eg. Rooster Booster in the Christmas Hurdle but his other victory at Kempton was over Snap Tie. Grade 1 vistories in Ireland over such great horses as Ansar hardly set the pulse racing either and he has no Grade 1 vistory in a big field and fast pace. He was good given ideal conditions but in the races which matter he was always found out and can never be considered a great.

Great horses don't need the dice to fall their way, they win in spite of adversity.

Harchi was very adept at beating horses that didn't have anything left at the end of their race, he had that eye-catching strong travelling way about him but couldn't pick up off that if whatever he was up against had a bit of fight left in them, being cruel I'd point to the defeat by straw bear at kempton as a shining example of his frailties....straw bear!!!

Well imo the CH of 2005 was one of the best and had 3 horses that tied all the form of that era.
Harchibald beat a CH winner and a tough one at that,and just failed to beat a better winner and even tougher one.

Maybe not a great,his race record tells us that,but at his best,which i admit werent often,but WHEN on his game,he was as talented a hurdler as ive ever seen.

So how is he superior to most Champion Hurdlers? If hurdling was a test of staying on the bridle for 14 furlongs with no requirement to go any quicker at the end of the race than you were early on then he'd be an all time great.

Put it this way,if those CH horses had been in that race in 2005,i honestly think he would have beaten most of them that day.I thought Rooster Booster was one of the best CHurdle winners ive seen,then Hardy beat him,and Hardy was a serious CH horse imo
He could not go any faster than he was already going his speed at the end of that race was enough to beat Brave Inca,and very nearly Hardy Eustace.

Anyway,this happens every year,the Harchibald debate,and its never sorted,its for him and against him,and whatever we say we never change peoples views on the horse,and probably never will.

Put it this way,if those CH horses had been in that race in 2005,i honestly think he would have beaten most of them that day.I thought Rooster Booster was one of the best CHurdle winners ive seen,then Hardy beat him,and Hardy was a serious CH horse imo
He could not go any faster than he was already going his speed at the end of that race was enough to beat Brave Inca,and very nearly Hardy Eustace.

Anyway,this happens every year,the Harchibald debate,and its never sorted,its for him and against him,and whatever we say we never change peoples views on the horse,and probably never will.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree but it's the debate about the good horses and having our own opinion which adds to our enjotment and sometimes financial benefits from the sport.

yes mate,we have a lot to be thankful for with these horses.

I have to endorse Budd's final point when he states: "it's either for him or against him, and whatever we say, we can't change people's views on the horse, and probably never will"

I'm not saying he was flawless, but he was easily the most charismatic horse (and my favourite) I've seen, and if you're not moved by him picking up Rooster Booster in the 2004 Xmas Hurdle (or his leap at the last flight) then you may as well take up crown green bowling instead!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmzbEW1oSWc - Never seen a race like it!

That era of Harchibald, Mac's Joy, Rooster Booster, Hardy Eustace & Brave Inca was the most fascinating since the late 70's - also, the last pair were the bravest hurdlers I think I've ever seen in well over 30 years following this sport...absolute warriors, yet they were the enemy to me & Harchibald!

For some ballsacs in the media with their slide-rules, protractors & spring dividers to be spouting utter shíte that they were a poor bunch of hurdlers because they weren't officially 170+ performers, is totally ignorant and disgraceful too!

They lit up the hurdling scene after Istabraq and it was far more enjoyable watching them fight things out than 'tolerating' a great (in Istabraq) winning walkovers at 1/7 - After the Sea Pigeon era, there was a big down-turn on the hurdling scene for many years...Harchibald & Co. rekindled that interest for many of us.

PS - Binocular achieved official ratings into the 170's...I know who I MUCH prefer - ALL the ones I named in my previous post!

Hurricane wasnt right last yr and finished 3rd, ruby will ride him and win.

If he wasn't right they were making some bloody positive noises after the Irish Champion Hurdle. I remember Mullins saying he was really impressive at Leopardstown, as good as he'd ever been and plenty on here were comparing him to Istabraq. If you think he's that good there are big enough prices on here and with the bookies to pay your mortgage off, have a few nice holidays, new car, etc. He's obviously one with some sort of chance but this is a very open race and there's not one piece of form to suggest he's ahead of anything in the race and he's now 9.

He was below his best in last years CH, it wasn't some thing that had been ailing him before hand though, it was something that simply knocked the edge off him that week along with other mullins horses, he was fine in his race before, as ruby said, he destroyed OW that day but struggled to get past him at the festival...simple as that.

When people say wasn't right last year, it should say wasn't right that week.

4-6 last year so the 7-2 still available is mahooooosive

Personally I was happier to lay the odds on last year.

I wasn't commenting on his style of running or relative merit which is why I used the word paradoxical. You touch on my issue. He is great on less undulating tracks than Cheltenham such as Leopardstown and Punchestown. This is where I draw my comparison. Every year Harchi would put in a sparkling effort at another course and the cry went up. He never quite got the win at Cheltenham that his talent deserved.

So fast forward to 2012/13 and Hurricane comes back and once again does what he has been doing to the Irish runners of the last 3-4 years by about the same margin and people are going into overdrive about his chances on what, as you also say, is not his ideal course at Cheltenham. Last year you made the point that a slight diminution in his powers was also a factor. Obvious point: He's another year older.

So you back up pretty all my comments which you then describe as ridiculous.

Using harchi as some sort of comparison to HF with regards to the over hype applied to them I simply don't get, because at the end of the day you are talking about a horse in the fly that has delivered on the big day in the big race, if you want to accept that but then go on to say "yes, he did win but was he as good as elsewhere", (particularly when in the style of his win he came there travelling like a dream and ran all the way to the long powerfully) doesn't make any sense, the fact that peddlers went with him to the long doesn't detract from the flys performance on the day and more importantly doesn't suggest that he under-performed or didn't like it as much, just a simple study of the way he travelled through the race shows that very clearly.

long= line

Another point that seems to have gone unmentioned is that NH performers over two miles (hurdles & chasers) really do seem to struggle for speed when ageing...Hurricane Fly is NINE now, so he's entitled to be wilting a bit if it is to be the case.

Sea Pigeon & Moscow Flyer were ELEVEN and they are notable exceptions to a fair rule...they were exceptional performers though.

My fingers will be crossed for Hurricane Fly to deliver in March, but realistically, he's had a few troubles in his career, and as many suspect, Cheltenham's exertions mightn't suit him too well, and it might've just been his class & tenacity that got him home two years ago - maybe he 'remembered' those rigours last year?

Then again, that possibility is tempered by the fact that his next run was arguably his most impressive (to the eye) which would suggest he took the Champion Hurdle victory in his stride.

Harchi really needed real decent ground,the watering policy did him no favours.
Had he got his ground i think he would have won a CHurdle,or certainly been very close again.

Eternaloptimist: Punchestown is nothing if not very undulating

Some interesting points gentlemen. I'm enjoying the debate:

Duffy

I think you have to ask yourself why he has only been seen twice in this country? There isn't as much to go on to form an opinion because he keeps turning up in three horse races for much less money in Ireland than he could earn here. There has to be a reason for that.

Leaving that aside for a moment though I also take issue with how you see his performance when he won. He won and you can't take that away from him but given how we know that he finds when let down in Ireland do you not find it at all surprising that having been running all over them jumping the second last that he scrambled home? Do you not find the proximity of Thousand Stars surprising given that he beats that same horse on the bridle by a similar distance in Ireland? Does the proximity of Clerks Choice not hold the form down in your view?

It is also noticeable that my naked eye view of how he performed seems to tally with his career RPR's and top speed ratings. He does what he does easier in Ireland and the question remains in my mind will he relish the thought of going back there at nine?

Harchinative

I don't think you can partially invalidate a paradox. If you do I'd imagine it ceases to be paradoxical. My comparison is relating to the lemmings and cliff. Given the variables, performances have to be relative and so very good is as useful a term as any I think. Had I said one was good and one was very good that would have been a comparison. Even so, if comparing, we aren't comparing a pit pony against Pegasus. Harchibald had some very good form in the book and a higher top speed rating and close enough RPR to make comparisons valid. He was also regularly willing to come to these shores to run in real races and was hampered by missing some of his best years. Also not forgetting that he just missed out in arguably the strongest renewal of the champion this century.

The specific year I'm referring to was in the 2008 champion. Given his age and the fact that he couldn't get home on good ground at his best Harchibald had no right being third favourite for the champion. Unfortunately people were sucked in by his two runs on easy 2 mile tracks earlier that season. That's your comparison.

Slabster

I've never been to Punchestown so I'd be lying if I said I could give you a first hand topographical statement but from what I've seen it seems more to be a slightly easier Sandown or Carlisle type track with it climbing from just before the beginning of the straight and then onto the far side where it begins the descent rather than a genuinely undulating course. I certainly don't think it can be compared to Cheltenham's old course where even when you do appear to get a flatter part it still upsets the rhythm of horses by being truly undulating with constant small rises and falls in the terrain.

Just to be clear the race was 2005 in case people thought I was referring to 2008 as being arguably the strongest.

the question was why are they raving about hurricane fly,are they  im not sure they are this year,is he as good as sea pigeon , haton grace,simple surely answer is no, so at his age he wont be winning any champion hurdle this year,are there any, see you then,persian wars, istabraq, comedy of errors in this , i doubt it, so there the answer look at the horses aged 6,7,or 8thats where you will find winner.

2011 was the 3rd longest distance he's beaten thousand stars by out of 8 races,no, I'm not concerned by the proximity of other horses because the way he travelled through the race and the comfort of the horse in relation to the others is all that matters, ruby wanted to win the race and cruised past most and up to the lead and ran all the way to the line, you're not always going to get every horse the correct distance away as regards ratings but that doesn't detract from the performance if the visual impression is satisfactory,if HF was whip whip whip push shove all the way and scrambled home it would be a different story, but there was absolutely no hint of it whatsoever.

Some great debate on here, a good read!

I've never been to Punchestown so I'd be lying if I said I could give you a first hand topographical statement but from what I've seen it seems more to be a slightly easier Sandown or Carlisle type track with it climbing from just before the beginning of the straight and then onto the far side where it begins the descent rather than a genuinely undulating course. I certainly don't think it can be compared to Cheltenham's old course where even when you do appear to get a flatter part it still upsets the rhythm of horses by being truly undulating with constant small rises and falls in the terrain.

No worries EO, I'd call it a very undulating track. It does appear quite flat on TV but when you get out there it's up hill and down dale. Obviously not as undulating as Cheltenham but undulating nonetheless.

I think you have to ask yourself why he has only been seen twice in this country? There isn't as much to go on to form an opinion because he keeps turning up in three horse races for much less money in Ireland than he could earn here. There has to be a reason for that.

I'd love to know where he could be earning all this extra cash EO! Just to compare a few of the big hurdle races from Ireland and England (excluding Champion Hurdle in which he has competed):

The average prize money of three of England's top 2 mile hurdles is 60k (Fighting Fifth, Bula and Christmas Hurdle).
The average prize money of Ireland's 4 Grade 1 2 mile hurdles is a little over 55k (Morgiana, Istabraq, Irish Champion, Punchestown).

Hardly 'much less money' now is it?

Yes Slabster he has won 12 grade ones in Ireland worth about 700K Euro and has won about a million £s in total. Cant see many of his opponents in March bettering that sort of money - unless they win plenty more of those big handicaps.

I think you must have been watching a different race from me. I did see him all out to repel Peddler's with Thousand Stars close enough up. If it is flying up the hill you want then I suggest you have a look at Istabraq winning by a dozen lengths or Rooster Booster smashing his field.


EO It`s all relative. Rooster Booster beat a horse rated in the 140`s in Westender when he won the CH. It`s safe to say Hurricane Fly could have cantered and sprinted right away from this horse on the snaff. A Thousand Stars would have won that race.

You need to look back at the 2011 CH and see that HF was running keen under Ruby. No wonder the horse had to hold on.

By the way EO your paradox comparison stinks. No one ever really got carried away by Harchibald apart from in running.

I can assure you they did in the run up to his thrashing by Katchit.

Slabster

My comment about the racing in Ireland was a little tongue in cheek but there is a serious point in that it is a bit boring for a punter watching him pick up yet another check for beating two other runners in the Morgiana when he could have come over to take in a proper race like the Bula for nearly twice as much money.

Angel

Westender went on to prove on numerous occasions that he was a much better horse than his rating at that time. At Cheltenham I suspect The Fly would have beaten him but I don't think he would have done it on the snaff and I think Thousand Stars would have struggled to win that race.

Thousand Stars OR - 163

Westender (Best)OR - 161

Consider the bare form comparison EO. Hurricane Fly`s performance is very similar. Although HF is rated higher the Cheltenham form is similar. For whatever reason Rooster Booster hit his purple patch at the age of 9. Hurricane Fly is still in fine fettle at 9 and Darlan  is not overly impressive at Cheltenham and if you go down the list of other contenders they all have question marks.

If there is a bit of soft in the going description in March then i would want to be with him.

Harchibald was 13/2 in a poor Champion Hurdle...he held no dominance at other tracks to suggest expectation was high for Cheltenham, He was just an exciting horse to follow in a race as a bridle ponce but 7/10 he let you down.

Hurricane Fly is not a dodge pot 9 year old.

Angel

I take issue with Thousand Stars 2 mile rating being so high coming as it does essentially solely through Hurricane keeping bullying him over that distance.

As I've said I do give Hurricane a chance the softer the ground.

Thousand Stars 2 mile Cheltenham form OR is franked by ALL the horses around him in the 2011 CH. It all fits.

He needs that kind of pace over 2 miles which he never gets in Ireland.

If Hurricane Fly had a smooth preparation for the CH and it was g/s or worse then i would lump on at 5/2 upwards.

He is still the one to beat unless the hooves are rattling.

Same old horses being beat again its like 2011 all over again..

looks good though

And always does under the right conditions against the same horses. The Irish correspondent in the RFO yesterday even points out he's beaten Thousand Stars in 9 of his last 12 races.

if he performs to the same level as 2011 he ill go very close.he wasnt the same horse last year.

Because they know he wasn`t right last season.

Keep up EO