Thoughts on Sprinter Sacre.

Sprinter didn't settle straight away in the Tingle Creek he was tugging for his head until Sanctuaire kicked right on and if you think he'll get a lead like that again you truly are bonkers. All last season nothing could go his pace. If you think he will settle over 3 miles anytime soon you're bonkers. It's one of the horses main strengths apart from anything. There is talk of him lobbing along which it does look like as he's a big horse but he's going extremely quickly. So many people with opinions on this horse now which is inevitable but they don't know the horse one bit.

^
Those are all the reasons why I think that cue card has zero chance of getting home on boxing day..zero.

festivalfanatic     10 Dec 12 11:47 
PFN says he won't be taking him on again and even HDB is looking to dodge him with Sizing Europe.


U av a quote for this?

AG - "The bottom line is that we seem confident that 20f will be right up his street. The King George must be on the agenda someday"

That's EXACTLY as I see it mate, though there are some who prefer to use Henderson's quotes (he's an out & out two-miler) used for HIS own convenience to keep his chargers apart, than to use their own eyes and experience of the sport!

There is NO WAY ON EARTH this chaser will NOT stay 20f, so I'm not gonna be patronised by someone quoting his trainer who clearly has a loaded agenda!

This is one of the major problems of housing all the best horses in just TWO stables...it's not good for the game when it gets to such an extent!

I thought last season that Tidal Bay could have been worth a try in the Cheltenham Gold Cup (this season will be much tougher) as after Long Run, I thought it was a weak (though very competitive) renewal and ANYTHING could get in the shake up! Next run for Tidal Bay...Whitbread mauling!!!

The Giant Bolster astonished everyone (traded around 4/11 I/R) China Rock & Time For Rupert ran huge races and traded very short I/R, so I was correct in my view.

These trainers look after THEMSELVES despite spouting what's best for the horse and the owner...they have their pecking order and if there's money to be made with lucrative options (they can persuade the owner) they'll avoid being 3/4/5 handed in a big race.

Not going to express an opinion on what distance the horse will stay but agree 100% about how NJH approaches his entries.

...except for when Nicholls had 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th from 5 (five) runners in 2009 Gold Cup, i think you meant to say.

Conti would win the king George shame he had already mapped out Al ferof and kauto stone. I get the feeling Hales had told nicholls he wants Walsh to ride Al ferof and nicholls didn't want to upset Hales, and obviously in the past Neptune being over looked cus of the kauto denman era think there may of been bit of love lost If I remember rightly.

DI - don't start quoting me examples because for the ODD one you can drag up, I'll give you a dozen swerves!

The Gold Cup is a notable 'Holy Grail' so it's understandable that FOUR different owners are determined to win it!
My Will was the only one of those who had a realistic option at the Festival...the other three HAD TO go there!

PS - I actually can understand that Nicholls didn't want Kauto Star & Denman meeting more than once a season as it may have been internecine for his chasers, and compromised their chances in the one that mattered.

Interesting brooksie to see what happens if AF stays well in KG. Nicholls is hinting at Ryanair and I don't think Hales will have that.

There are a couple of big owners you will stand up, the other seemingly is Buckley who apparently has said that Finian's Rainbow either goes Arkle or GC, not Ryanair

Sanctuaire kicked right on and if you think he'll get a lead like that again you truly are bonkers. - Never said that.

Was Sprinter Sacre going any faster than normal in the Tingle Creek? Nope....Sanctuaire was though which is why he didn`t stay the 2 mile trip at that speed and only finished 3rd.

Sprinter Sacre had settled after the first 2 fences but he was not travelling any faster than the chasing pack. Sanctuaire was scuttling ahead.

Roo - Potts seems another one, and I have to say if they're paying the bills and they reckon their trainer is just 'feathering his own nest' then maybe we shouldn't have them tagged as 'difficult characters' even though I'm guilty of doing so!

If I had a horse, I'd certainly make sure I had some input!

The Tingle Creek was the first time in his career that Sprinter HAS settled. He was able to because of the tremendous pace set by Sanctuaire.

All this talk of Sprinter "lobbing along" in a 3 mile race at 3 mile pace is nothing short of laughable.

Everyone seems to forgotten that he has already been tried at two and a half miles over hurdles.
He travelled superbly(pulling hard) until the 2nd last and then stopped as though he'd been shot.
His worst run by a considerable margin.

FB - I know you're no fool and it's as if you're being contrary here...you KNOW Sprinter Sacre is a totally different animal as a chaser and if I'm not mistaken, hasn't he had a palate operation since his hurdling days?

It might seem a bit naive to compare with Frankel, but they're similar as regards their ongoing maturity and settling better - I think SS will settle with an average pace from now on...time will tell

We'll just need to wait and see what Hendo says after the Champion Chase. He certainly won't be racing over anything other than 2 miles until then.

PS to Duncan Idaho - just checked on RP website and I forgot about Star De Mohaison in the 'Nicholls' Gold Cup' and yet again, he was in different ownership and had no other realistic Festival option as he was 'weighted out' of the handicaps!

I was surprised to see he was only a 20/1 shot in one of the best Gold Cups in recent memory so he was clearly no bum!

He did have an operation after the end of his hurdling career. He ran 3 times after that debacle and before the operation though and hacked up twice and finished 3rd in the Supreme all over 2m.
As you rightly say he's much better over fences. The fact remains however in that one run over more than 2 miles he showed form at least 20lb below anything else he has done. Obviously he is a much stronger and more mature horse now which may make a difference.

NG,
really not sure why you get upset when its mentioned that the trainer said he's a 2 miler and would stay a 2miler.
He did say that i seem to recall.
Of course he can change his mind at any stage of the horses career,if the horse starts telling him differently.
Hes 2 miles this season,at least till the QM.
Then they will decide to step him up for the melling chase,or stay at 2m for the Champion Chase at Punchestown.

To be honest if they feel hes never gonna get 3m,which is probable if he thinks hes a 2 miler right now,then i dont see the point of stepping up.
Winning the QM,TC and VC a few times,and an Irish Champion Chase once or twice is more prestigious than winning races at 2 and halfm.
Whatever our opinion,we have to respect the opinions of people who know the horse.
Yes,to my eyes he looks so good he would probably win over 2m4 at the top level,but another 4f after that,i aint sure at all.

FB - do you think he'll go for the Melling and furthermore, stay the trip and win?
The possibility of Finian's Rainbow going there might scupper that (a true Henderson swerve) but it's also a possible that FR might head for the Bowl instead.

NB
I wouldn't have thought he would but it's an option. I also don't believe Finians Rainbow is a 3 miler and after he blows out in the KG I'd expect him to revert to shorter trips and almost certainly run in the Melling.

Budd - we're all entitled to our opinions mate and I think I'm more qualified than most to disagree with trainers - even Cecil gets things wrong now & again, and on the odd occasion, I've been spot-on!

If we all hung on to ever musing the trainers utter we'd be skint!
They lead us down the wrong path sometimes, and dress things up, when we KNOW they do not want a clash of their own stars!

AND...I don't get upset...I like others' views even when I strongly disagree, as long as there's some decent reasoning behind it.

I also have my doubts about 3M for Sprinter Sacre as I don't see how anyone could be confident of him getting that far (at this point in his career) but horses do change their characteristics as they mature.

Wayward Lad was a very smooth traveller in his early days but upped in trip, he ran some of his best races when rousted along with a fair bit to go - that's counter intuitive!
As I stated a few days ago...Floyd was a completely different animal as he matured, and there are many more examples I can think of.

I've got a lot of experience of this sport and if there's one thing I would instil into a newcomer, it would be to expect the unexpected!
I can give you dozens of examples of grade/group ones races where I STILL can't believe what I've seen...Solemia being the most recent!

FB - you may well be right about Finian's Rainbow over 3M and although I'm not convinced, he has a chance of getting the trip - nevertheless, he is the crux of this argument about Sprinter Sacre stepping up in distance, as it would be a surprise to see BOTH go for the Melling.

Flyingbolt

The fact remains however in that one run over more than 2 miles he showed form at least 20lb below anything else he has done. No No  No....

Sprinter Sacre was beaten by Frascati Park over 20f - Frascati Park was a 132 Hurdler. In that race was Poungach 8L behind in 3rd. He went on to be a 152 horse over hurdles.

It was Sprinter Sacre`s hurdle debut. Where do you get this 20lb below anything else he has done crapola?? Look at his 2 NH races as well. Everything has been a natural progression. You are talking rubbish.

AG - who cares mate...it a totally different discipline!
How many high class chasers have you seen with absolutely useless form over hurdles?

It is a fair guide (like NHF races are to newcomers over hurdles) but ultimately it has only some relevance.

To be honest mate,Henderson is always saying he dont want to race his horses against each other,particularly in races leading up to the festival.
When i asked him about Finians defending his QM this season at the open day,he said to me we have Sprinter Sacre and Barry will have to decide.
Well Barry will be on SS,so if FR dont stay in the KG,what happens to FR?
Makes sense to me for trainer to tell owner that FR should be in Ryanair cos he might win that,he wont win the QM.

Im well aware of being careful listening to trainers,and jockeys and owners!!
All i was saying is what he said.
Whether we choose to belive them is up to us as individuals.

Yes of course NG.

Flying Bolt however is using that hurdles race to assess Sprinter Sacre`s prospects of getting further. He has totally misread the form of that particular race.

That brings us back to the question of TOO many of the top horses camped in the same two stables!
It's bad for the game

PS - Budd...it's understandable too when the likes of Henderson & Nicholls are wanting to keep their best apart (until the Festival at least) but they dress it up about being the 'best thing for the horse & owner' - that's nonsense!

having looked at finians pedigree a good while back ,he is very stoutly bred indeed,owned  by the aga khan,and   by  tiraaz who ran and won or  placed in the prix cadran and also in the prix gladiator  the distances of these races are well in excess of 2 miles ,he also has strong gale in the dams side of his pedigree so the bloodline is  very strong on stamina . so could well be suited by 3m +.

AG

If you think getting beaten pointless by a 132 rated hurdler is on a par with his other runs over hurdles then all I can say is.......

As for Poungach do you think he ran to 152 ???If not that comment is irrelevant.......or perhaps you think Frascati Park is a 195 horse ?


Best to keep it sensible imo.

Flyingbolt

I take it you are running and hiding rather than explaining this crapola..

The fact remains however in that one run over more than 2 miles he showed form at least 20lb below anything else he has done.

Yes it`s best to keep it sensible lad.

FW - in all reality, it's only the truly exceptional that beat the BEST over 2M AND 3M - as much as I liked him, I can't say that Edredon Bleu was in hailing distance or encountered the quality that Desert Orchid or Kauto Star did!

Therefore, a horse of similar ability in Finian's Rainbow has big doubts about the trip against what looks to be a very competitive field at Kempton, never mind the Gold Cup!

As for Poungach do you think he ran to 152 ???If not that comment is irrelevant.......or perhaps you think Frascati Park is a 195 horse ?

Have you always had a mental problem reading form

This is a redundant argument guys...calm down!

Well its best for horse and owner if the trainer finds the right races to give them the best chance of winning,and quiet often that will mean running them in different races.
If he puts them in the same race then straight away they know one of them aint winning!!

Just think theres a bit more to it then just saying a trainer does it all for his own ends,so to speak.
Yes he gains if he has 2 winners instead of one winner,but so do the owners.

We just have to try and work out when to take notice of them and when not to.

That aint easy!!!

The form of that race is below any of his other form

However the main focus of that race is the way he ran,travelling really well and
then finding nothing.

I know that Budd, but it begs the question of would the game be better off if McCain, Hobbs or King had a few of Nicholls/Henderson FOURTH strings?

yeh mate,it would.
But the way they have been training lately not sure i would want a good horse with any of em!!
That aint helping,that Henderson and Nicholls are streets ahead,well seems that way to me anyway.

It's been worse in Ireland over the last few years with Willie Mullins!

The form of that race is below any of his other form

However the main focus of that race is the way he ran,travelling really well and
then finding nothing.  good to see you admit your 20lb statement was crapola.

Would you not expect his hurdling debut and seasonal debut to be a stepping stone for the season? Every race was a progression.

The bottom line is that was his hurdling debut. He was beaten by a horse race fit with 6 hurdle races under his saddle. However Sprinter Sacre did muller Poungach in that race.

After this race Sprinter Sacre went on to beat a 110 horse in Scorcillero on the snaff. ( how are you equating this form as superior than the 20f race)???

I thought SS returned home a sick horse after the frascati park race, it was nearly 3 months before we saw him again.

because he won the race you refer to pulling a cart with any amount in hand.

If you think the Ascot race is a better run so be it.If you think everything is
down to what beaten horses are rated then there is little point continuing this discussion.

I love the fact that SS will be kept to 2 miles as I personally prefer a potential superstar at this distance as I feel the king george and gold cup not the ultimate accolade tho i know I am in the minority.Personally SS could be so far ahead of any opponents that my theory will never be put to the test but going on racing notes I have made about this horse on its previous runs I truly believe he is a bridle horse albeit possibly one of the best I may ever see, I am not saying it is ungenuine or anything as ludicrous but if we find another horse who can run within 6lbs of its potential rating then I know which one I would be laying in run at odds on,now I could be talking absolute garbage (I have had a few so please forgive me) but its all about opinions and I do hope I am proved wrong,or possibly we wont come across another animal capable of putting my speculative theory to the test. As for staying further I dont really care I hope it goes unbeaten through its career at two miles and not spoiled by trying distances that may not suit,take care all.

MES - then we'd have the 'Big Buck's' scenario (at 2M) for the next FOUR years and eventually plenty of frustration

I disagree,I actually find the thought of it taking on any potential stars in the future at this distance mouthwatering,my race of the season is the QM because the spectacle of good national hunt animals jumping at speed is my utopia.

If you think the Ascot race is a better run so be it.If you think everything is
down to what beaten horses are rated then there is little point continuing this discussion.

It was you that equated beating a 110 on the snaff 20lb superior to being beaten by Frascati Park over 20f.

Not me. This was your calculation.

MES - each to their own but I think the majority are almost bored with Big Buck's never even trying 20f

navel- I think you are comparing it to the wrong example.

I think it's a very appropriate comparison if you get your wish and Sprinter Sacre stays at 2M for years!

Surely that WON'T happen!

Ther thought of sprinter sacre taking on the potential young guns for the next 4 or 5 years  with jumping ability and speed to burn is a wonderful thought whereas big bucks farming long distance hurdle races against the last chance boys yeh competely boring Seriously I like having established stars at championship distances for others to aim at and I personally will ber very happy if it tries to win a record number of QM,tho it has to win 1 first!

The problem is that if SS turns out as good as he good be, the QMCC will always turn out to be short of horses as there will be 2 milers running in the Ryanair to avoid him. 

To really find out how good he is he may need to run in races that 'could' be out of his comfort zone. You NH fans may really not like this, but this debate is becoming more like the Frankel one by the post.

Duffy is correct... well documented that SS returned a sick horse after the Acot race.

The one different aspect is that EVERY season there will undoubtedly be potential challengers if Sprinter Scare remained exclusively at 2M, but at 3M over hurdles, we always seem to be making a case for one 'great white hope' every year, though deep down, we've knew it'd be a no-contest!

Roobuck yu may have a point tho with nothing to lose or gain after its all over hopefully not!

mmmmm

Didn't look too "sick" when he was swinging off the bridle on Frascat Park's backside turning for home with the winner under strong pressure.

Has anyone actually watched that race ?

That's true Roobuck...and we could go back to the days when Badsworth Boy had just three (I think) in opposition!

Yu see navel-gazer yu agree with me after allTake care,I am slightly the worse for wear and HU poker is calling.

MES - you smug fcuk

Actually flyingbolt I remember it well ,probably part the reason I have the bridle theory

Scope following race showed he had a "dirty nose" .... information that is freely available if you care to check.

Has he been off the bridle since he grew up??
in other words once he started chasing.
if not we have no evidence that says he aint a bridle horse.
not saying he is one,cos theres no evidence there either,not as a chaser there aint.

Im with missel a tad here,in that the 2m chase division is top notch and bl00dy exciting to watch,and over the years has produced great horses and great races.
Whose to say if he stays at 2m that we wont have great clashes as new ones come through next few years.
Already we could potentially have Arvika Legionaire and Overturn and Oscars Well taking him on in the Tingle Creek next season,not too sad a prospect imo.

Dirty nose. Hurdle debut. Seasonal debut and only a 4 year old..............who in their right mind would assess a horse by this race

Oh yeh Flyingbolt.

Seasonal debut ?

Where has he finished on his seasonal debut in the other 3 seasons he's been racing ?

Henderson and Geraghty seem to have made an assessment based on this run,given that he's not attempted further than 2 miles since.

Still...you know best.

Already we could potentially have Arvika Ligionniere and Overturn and Oscars Well taking him on in the Tingle Creek next season,not too sad a prospect imo.

A non event. These animals will need 30L start.

Simonsig is the only one who has a chance. But who trains him!!

Seasonal debut ?

Where has he finished on his seasonal debut in the other 3 seasons he's been racing ?

20th Feb2010 - 8/11f he beat King of the Night ...by a nose.

19th Nov2010 - Beaten by Frascati Park at 6/5fav ( scoped dirty )

Last year 2/9 fav won
This year 4/11 fav won

You really have surprised me with your stupidity Flyingbolt.

matter of opinion AG.

You know how good all these will be then?? including a horse that aint even jumped a fence yet,being the best of them!!

fair enough.

All im saying is that nothing stands still in this game with 2m chasers,theres always more on the way up.

Angel gabriel, I concur with a few of your sentiments tho i do think that Flyingbolt has a valid point regarding its hurdle race, my problem is that this horse hasent had a proper challenge over its preferred distance yet or probably may never have,my thought fwiw is that it is not a horse that screams out for a step up in distance (yet!) and i dont believe run style suggests otherwise, I am still in the camp tho that it is not a bad thing and I hope it becomes a true champion at the minimum distance.

i really dont see a problem with SS taking on all the new  kids on the block and beating them all over the next few years,it not as if he would be beating the same ones over and over.Each season would bring new challengers,i find it quiet interesting actually.
if 2m IS his optimum distance,so be it.

To put a level head on this argument...when was the last time a young prospect's future was set in stone?
It's not like we're talking about a professional chaser whose 4 or 5 runs are earmarked well in advance.

He had a novice chase programme geared towards the Arkle, and since then, there has been no reason (or a programme) for him that connections should even ponder about until Aintree next year!

It's just playing things by ear at the moment with a horse who's still in the process of maturing - it's nothing complicated at all, and it means absolutely ZIP that he hasn't stepped up in trip since that meaningless hurdle defeat!


Also, because he does everything so effortlessly, it's a valid question when some might wonder what he'll find off the bit if anything's good enough to get him at it (or he runs in a handicap which looks very unlikely at the moment) and I believe he'll be just like Frankel in dispelling those nagging doubts about being a bridle ponce.

Ask yourselves...for all the wonderful achievements of the great Moscow Flyer, there are many of us who already believe that this thing is even better, and at such a raw stage!

Then again, I have to admit after watching Master Minded romp to victory as a 5yo, I had him ahead of one of my all-time favourites in Moscow Flyer!
It shouldn't be overlooked that Sprinter Sacre is not even a Champion Chaser YET!

He'll have cue card back to deal with too after the king george.....might take a few months to get his breath back after the kg mind you

to compare Master Minded with Moscow Flyer is sacrilege... yu should know better

MES - I know that in my heart as surely EVERYONE preferred Moscow Flyer to Master Minded?

BUT...that performance at 5yo is the most jaw-dropping thing I've witnessed in this sport, but sometimes the facts inconveniently 'get in the way' and one has to remain objective

This thread has got even worse what an utter load of garbage. All I'm glad is you morons have nothing to do with this special horse.

WTF

Do you mean your namesake or Sprinter Sacre?

AND just what's wrong with sensible debate musing over what may happen in the future?

I didn't have your card marked as a tool that looked for arguments

Say what you have to say...in English!

If they are thinking of going to aintree, then the prospect of eventually stepping up to 3 can't be too far from their thoughts.Anyway, I reckon that after a couple of seasons of beating fresh air,when we're no longer orgasmic at every stroll in the park, they may feel they need to step him up in order to really gain the credit he deserves.

Duffy - I'm not sure if they will step up to 3M, even in time, though I hope it would be considered - I don't exactly think going over 20f necessarily means a progressive leap into unknown territory and the King George.

I'm just asking a question as regards his prospects for The Melling and further forward, as ALL the top 2M chasers at least have a go sometime.

I stand by what I said initially in that right now, he'd gobble up ANYTHING over 20f - Flemenstar included and I'm a big fan of Casey's chaser.

Aye Moscow flyer was very successful in the melling but they still never attemped 3m. Would be very surprised if sprinter was as effective over 3m as he is over 2m. I think we've been spoilt by Kauto in recent years.

Angel Gabrial

You haven't surprised me in the slightest with your stupidity.

Still refusing to back up your 20lb assertion FB?

Until then any of your comments are irrelevant regarding stupidity

My view is that whilst the jury is currently out, his first race over the distance wouldn't fill you with confidence as he did look like a non stayer.

EO

Did you read the bit were it was noted that Sacre scoped dirty that day?

I did and I take that into account. To the naked eye he didn't run like an off colour horse. He ran like a non stayer. An impression which seemed to be confirmed in the supreme where he travelled into the lead with consummate ease and found nothing. All last season there were voices raised that he just might not come up the hill in the Arkle. Of course he did and he wasn't stopping but was that because he outclassed them or was it because he is strengthening up and would now get further?

As I say I think the jury remains out and I'd like to see him settling better in his races to lend weight to the assertion that he will now get further.

The infection detected by the scope could be mild but still effect him at the end the end of the race with more airway trauma. It`s open to debate..

However regarding what you said EO about voices being raised last year if he would come up the hill. I feel the difference with him chasing to hurdling is the energy which he reserves with his natural ability to fence. Other horses probably use much more oxygen straining at the fences than Sprinter Sacre does, because he fences more effortlessly in his stride.

Over hurdles he would not have saved anything on his rivals. A big gangly thing as a hurdler is no advantage. It must also be said than physically he is more of a finished article now. Made for fencing.

Eeternaloptimist
11 Dec 12 15:43

An impression which seemed to be confirmed in the supreme where he travelled into the lead with consummate ease and found nothing.


Addressing solely this point, i would say that both Sprinter Sacre and Cue Card went for home 2 out that day only to fade from the last and be collared by Al Ferof/Spirits Son....imo SS and CC went too soon and had run their race by the last rather than it being a case that they didnt stay (we know for a fact that CC stays at least 2½m).

I think that's a fair point.

Regarding the supreme, it is well known the hill identified a wind issue, it looked like it at the time, he had his wind addressed subsequently, the trainer did not want him to run and tried almost everything to prevent it, the jockey was new, he pulled brutally for far too long early on, he was still a big baby, AP produced him too early because he was only trying to beat CC (for some reason), and he clattered through the last. They are the legit excuses for not getting up the hill and I am amazed people do not acknowledge their weight. SS did return 'wrong' in his novice hurdle yr, but that was after Ascot (2m3).

R Carver

I completely agree that it is indeed amazing that posters are judging Sprinter Sacres prospects of staying beyond 2 miles. Then again these debates always ensue with people focussing on anything negative but deciding to ignore behind obvious factors behind the negative.

Also now is the chasing game. The horse saves energy on his rivals every fence. As a hurdler he was not advantaged at all.

Also interesting to remind people that AP was defeated on Sprinter Sacre as well as Kauto Star. He must be jinxed on the superstars.

and denman

3 times in a row including an unseat at 1/6

And Best Mate in it`s first KG...

"AP produced him too early"

Interesting concept.

Geraghty has "produced" him at the latest by 3 out in every single one of his wins over obstacles.

"He pulled brutally for far too long early on"

The TC was the first time he hasn't.......because of the tremendous pace set by Sanctuaire.

As for Kauto Star it is general opinion that he was below par that particular season. Of course you only like to put up "obvious factors" if they back up your opinion.

maybe the 1000 times champion jockey aint very good on top notch horses

Angel

The fact is that there is little evidence either way about his ability to stay and so inevitably there will be conjecture but what evidence there is suggests that he may struggle to move up to 3 miles. Of course he may and if he does he will be some sight running in a King George.

1000  times??

He would have been beaten on Frankel that McCoy.

EO of course 3 miles is odds against but 20f is odds on.

However too many people judging him on his hurdle debut without acknowledging other dimensions of probable reasoning behind his only `steady` effort. Would you expect him to drop anchor after 17f now?

buddeliea

buddeliea
10 Dec 12 20:05
Joined:
19 Mar 04
| Topic/replies: 7,401 | Blogger: buddeliea's blog
Has he been off the bridle since he grew up??
in other words once he started chasing.
if not we have no evidence that says he aint a bridle horse.
not saying he is one,cos theres no evidence there either,not as a chaser there aint.

Havent seen him b4 last week, but it looked like a 2 horse race and he was untested to win. Very much a lay next time owing to punter over reaction.

Flyingbolt -

1. I honestly believe AP rode SS to beat only CC in the Supreme (because he thought CC was the horse to beat). Fair enough if you disagree, but i base my opinion on what I saw on the day at the track and not on any particular problem with AP (see below).

2. Regarding the moment AP produced SS, and your comparison with when BJG has produced it - surely the moment a horse is produced is contingent on many factors and a direct analysis with when BJG has produced it in totally different races against different horses is meaningless in this context. Is this not indisputably correct?

3. Regarding the way in which he pulled - in some races, against some horses, a 'puller' will get away with it; in other races, against other horses, he wont. Is this not indisputably correct? I think it was harder for SS to get away with it in the Supreme than it was at, say, Fos Las. Is this not reasonable?

If AP had the chance to ride SS in the Supreme again, I think he might do things otherwise. I do not blame AP for the horse pulling but i think the horse pulling meant he had little left when asked at the end (when AP produced him).

Regarding Iron Man AP, I do not think that was his worst moment but it was not unspeakably bad (far from it really; I think he gave Darlan a worse ride actually this time round) and he is a jockey I rarely am critical of. He is a jockey I have never criticised on here. I adore and admire the guy and think 99% of the criticism of him is rubbish and unfair. I am not saying anyone on here has a 'betting shop mentality' but much of the stick the guy gets is from frustrated favourite backers in the bookies. If I think he did not give SS the best ride ever in the Supreme, it would fall into the (approx) 0.0001% of less than flawless rides he has given horses over the yrs.

I do not think he did anything wrong on Kauto Star, as you say, he was not 'right'. I'd have to review the Newbury / Denman race again (I cannot recall what conclusion I reached at the time) but do not think he did anything wrong (from vague memory) in the CGC on him. I think he gave Masterminded a poor ride one day at Ascot (from vague memory) but the horse still won. RC

8 [should read] I am not saying anyone on here has a 'betting shop mentality' but in my opinion much of the stick the guy gets is from frustrated favourite backers in the bookies.

Havent seen him b4 last week, but it looked like a 2 horse race and he was untested to win. Very much a lay next time owing to punter over reaction.

Sacre will always be overpriced.

Havent seen him b4 last week, but it looked like a 2 horse race and he was untested to win. Very much a lay next time owing to punter over reaction.

Sacre will always be overpriced.

Hibernating ?

I would be interested in what price you're willing to lay him next time (VC chase / Jan 19th), he's not exactly a 1 race win wonder.

AG, you could be correct, but there's a valid reason for it