Charlie Hall Chase - Diamond Harry

Not sure he is the same horse HM ? Last 3 runs have been disappointing. I see the first time out angle, but if anything I am surprised the Hennessy GC is not an option. His mark is 5lb lower than when he won the race and his form figures at the course are 11311.

You'd have to say the price is tempting but I backed him last year and he was taken out on the day of the race and Wetherby ground could be a bit quick for him unless they get a lot of rain. agree if he runs he must have a big chance. I'm more inclined to think he was wrong last season and may have had a hard race in The Betfair Chase. If he's right this year then 151 would be interesting for The Hennessy.

Agree with both posts tbh.

Problem with Dirty is that he could still be declared and wake up with a poorly foot on the day. Not sure I could back him AP. Defo a horse to back when fresh however and whilst like sint he could be very fairly treated in a handicap,  very attractive price for a graded event - think he'd be suited by the course as well.

will be interesting to see how weights are framed weird al at the mo for me

It's an interesting one. First time out is definitely when to catch him. Maybe his injury finished him (I think it probably did), but maybe not. Personally I would run him in the Hennessey FTO of his current mark. If he is fit and well again he'd have a great chance which would be waster by running in the Charlie Hall. I guess we'll know if that's a possibility tomorrow.

Taking into account his fragility they might just run him on Saturday in case he's not right by the time the Hennessy comes along.

Time For Rupert was 2nd in this last year when having just his 4th chase start. His 5th in the GC is the strongest form on offer imo even though Weird Al beat him last season, but he'll have a penalty. 7/1 for TFR is OK if he were to run.

The likes of Cappa Bleu are also entered in the big handicap at Ascot and he'll surely be aimed at Aintree all season for the grand national.

If DH turns up on soft ground, I'd fancy him to beat this lot.  He will get the allowances as well from most of the others here.  I know Weird Al beat him at Haydock, but with no Kauto or Long Run to keep tabs with he will last longer and receive weight.  Re the Hennessy, the weights are framed this week I believe so the handicap mark shouldn't be affected.  Would still have a month to freshen him up also.

Firstly, I should state I am a long way from being a Diamond Harry fan.  He's not a horse I'm drawn to but this price looks wrong imo.

He'll be receiving weight off everything in the race bar Planet Of Sound, Roberto Goldback and Wayward Prince.

SC and FL give him 5lb, TFR 6lb, Weird Al and Midnight Chase 10lb.

It's quite possible he's 'gone', of course, but if you're ever going to play him it's first time up and the price compensates for those doubts I reckon.  More of a worry is if they fancy Newbury but with all his issues would a run in that most bruising of races suit?  Not sure I'd point him in that direction.

Shock, I think the Hennessey weights are framed next Tuesday. I'm not sure whether that means races this coming weekend will be assessed?

On the Henn, it's racecourse performances up to and including Nov 11th that can be taken into account.

useful to know that^^^

Yes, cheers as always HM

Midnight Chase for me if he turns up. Ground should be goodish based on a dry week forecasted, and can't see another obvious front runner in the field. Might just have many of these under pressure if he jumps and gets into a nice rhythm. Track obviously a question mark given his preference for Cheltenham.

nick williams seems to have his team well forward and a fair few 1st time out winners, and if the ground is on the softish side then i think he could run a big race ! 12/1 is too big imo  , but will he run if the ground is good though? or will they wait for the hennesey .

Cheers for info HM.  Well with that info in mind, you can only decide that if DH turns up he's there to win(if still good enough). Will blow the handicap mark with a big run.  Can't back Ante Post too many ifs.

Corporal, ran a decent race round there last season, change of tactics then too.

Also a Midnight Chase fan, his grinding effort around the track last Boxing Day is not to be underestimated IMO. Mulholland is sounding reasonably bullish as well, which can only be taken as a positive? Hoping First Lieutenant shows up to throw in some quality novice form into the mix, as I'm still not quite sure what to make of S Conti's - although I'm edging towards the side of cation (a la pacha du polder).

Does anyone think that the national may have left a mark on Weird Al? He certainly didn't have a good time...

this is not a handicap headmaster i am not entirely sure how the weights are framed but just because a horse has a inferior o r it doesnt mean he will recieve weight from a rival with a greater o r will be interesting to view the weights later this morning

Boy Wonder it's a conditions race and weights are allotted based on wins since last September.  More weight for a better class win etc.

ok thanks

I'm trying very hard not to give a sarky answer, bw07!  I would say, however, that I've been watching Charlie Halls for over 30 years and am fully aware it's not a handicap.  Here are the weights for you, old chap:

Master of The Hall(IRE)11 10
Midnight Chase         11 10
Weird Al (IRE)         11 10
Mr Moonshine (IRE)     11  6
Time For Rupert (IRE)  11  6
First Lieutenant (IRE) 11  5
Silviniaco Conti (FR)  11  5
Cannington Brook (IRE) 11  4
Cappa Bleu (IRE)       11  4
Garleton (IRE)         11  4
Diamond Harry          11  0
Planet of Sound        11  0
Roberto Goldback (IRE) 11  0
Wayward Prince         11  0

If you knew Diamond Harry was going to run, 10-1 getting weight from the likes of Master Of The Hall, Midnight Chase and Weird Al, and 6lbs from Mr Moonshine, would make him one of the bets of the season. Surely they wouldn't be thinking of running him if he wasn't showing the right signs at home.

Weights 11st Penalties after September 30th, 2011, a winner of a Class 3 weight-for-age chase or a Class 2 handicap chase 4lb; of a Class 2 weight-for-age chase or a Class 1 handicap chase 6lb; of a Class 1 weight-for-age chase10lb (Half penalties for wins achieved in Novices' and Beginners' Chases in Great Britain and Ireland) Allowances mares 7lb

sorry headmaster didnt mean it disrespectfully i have just bet diamond harry off 11st this could be a procession i had great lift off him in the hennessy and i am hoping for the same

No worries, bw

Now the weights have been fed into the RP database he comes out clear on RPRs.

Whether he's gone, gets injured, is steered towards Newbury or whatever, I can't get him out to 10/1 (although 12 was nicer, natch).

We'll see.  As stated, he's a horse I'm not drawn to so fully expecting to be disappointed.

this is his gold cup i think williams will have him spot on

Weather forecast is for rain over next 3 days so going should be perfect.  It's pretty damp outside now but i'm about 15 mile away.

sounds good i will shout him home from the dine and view balcony

Want to back him, prepared to lose a couple of points to get NRNB

I'm with you Roo

Of course there is another potential engima in the race in the shape of Wayward Prince. 33/1 is interesting but whilst have no idea if the owner can train, the horse might be sparked into life for a change of scenery as he certainly seemed to fall out of love with the game.

That's bizarre.  I don't normally have this thought but looked up his trainer to see if he'd moved, thinking exactly that roo.  Can't remember where I looked it up but it defo said Williams still.

That is interesting as he's young enough to come back.

Hilary Parrott anyone?

I see its confirmed that Dirty definitely going for the race. Nervous of him waking up with a headache but have played at 10s and will top up post decs.

Also decided to have a little e/w on Wayward Prince.

SILVINIACO CONTI, an impressive winner at Aintree last spring, has been heavily supported to make a winning seasonal reappearance in Saturday's Grade 2 Bet365 Charlie Hall Chase at Wetherby.

The Paul Nicholls-trained six-year-old tumbled in price from a top quote of 7-2 on Tuesday morning and is now generally 5-2 favourite, with the sponsors forecasting he will shorten still further in the run-up to the big race.

Pat Cooney, head trader for Bet365, said: "Silviniaco Conti
was 3-1 when we opened our book, and he has been backed to the exclusion of everything else, down to 5-2.

"I think the punters have seen Ruby Walsh by his name, and realised that he could have gone to Ascot for any number of good rides, yet is going all the way north for Silviniaco Conti.

"When Nicholls and Walsh combine in the feature race on a Saturday it often spells disaster for bookmakers. We have big liabilities on the horse at the moment, and I can only see them increasing as the week goes on. Punters remember Silviniaco Conti being very heavily backed at Aintree, and I am sure his price will shorten again."

Among his rivals on Saturday will be Diamond Harry who was well fancied for the race last year when ruled out on the day.

Jane Williams, wife of his trainer Nick, said: "He's got more excuses than any schoolboy with his homework but he is well and we are happy with him at the moment.

"He is very big and very fragile but on the course he is a magnificent horse. I think we have ironed out most of his problems unless he has found a new one!"

I wouldn't be surprised if this is SC's Gold Cup. Im not sure he is good enough to win the Grade 1's unless they are weak affairs.

But then the same theory could apply to all of them

Does Wayward Prince run here Roo or at Ascot? Is he in the G3 handicap?

Does Wayward Prince run here Roo or at Ascot? Is he in the G3 handicap?

DH was a useful nov hurdler,but as a chaser not for me.

He won the Hennessey beating Burton Port whose had big problems with setbacks, and imo the only real decent horse in the field had nearly 2 stone more on his back.

He gets talked up every year on here,and still is,despite pulled up getting more and more mentioned in his form.
Good luck in taking 10's on this one!!

Clearly not yet at decs and hope he runs at Wetherby,  but WP not entered at Ascot

I understand your comments about Dirty buddeliea.

However beating BP off levels in Hennessy is good form and would have beaten him much further over 3M. Burton Port had top class novice form and since he has come back ha also ran to a very high level. His 4th in GC is much better than anything else on offer on the race.

If, and I appreciate its a huge if, he can run close to that form, there's no way he should be anything like 10/1. Wouldn't have him on my mind if was wasn't his seasonal debut but prepared to give him a chance at that price.

Thats the thing though Roo,hes 10/1 cos his recent form is rubbish.In fact he should be bigger than that really imo.

His Hennessey form goes back too far,his form recently suggests that,and thats where he should be judged until he proves hes as good as some think he is/was.

Last season he pulled up twice and got well beat twice.

Better to watch him if yer like the horse,rather than spending yer hard earned,imo.
Of course if you do think 10's is value,cos that price is worth the chance he might come back,then yer have to take it i guess.

we all have our opinion but do you think nick williams would have given him an entry unless he felt he was in good form this horse carries no condition whatsoever that is why his first is always his best if the ground was to be soft/heavy he will win this on the bridle

Well he had a few entries last season,never won any of them on the bridle,in fact he werent good at all!!

I seem to remember he was well backed(shock,horror!) first time up last season at Haydock.
Actually he ran quiet well for a fair way,but when it come to the business end of the race he went backwards.
I wont bother mentioning his other races,as hes being touted on the strength of his fto record.

I really think that hes never recovered properly frpm his problems,and i fear never will,but if they aint sure thats the case,then fine, enter him up early, and find out for sure.

FTO is the time to catch him and I'm not sure it's entirely fair to judge him against Kauto Star and Long Run, especially when he was the one who tried to go with Kauto.

To quote the OP:
Record on seasonal
debut:

1/1/1/1/1/4 (the 4 being behind two of the finest chasers in recent memory)

Well he went off a shorter price than Kauto,so a lot were happy to judge him in that company Stront.

He also finished behind Weird Al,although i do take the point that he did take Kauto on.

Really? That is a surprise. I guess that says more about Kauto in 2010-11 than anything else.

I think you know what I mean though - Kauto and Long Run (in good form) beating DH does not make him a bad horse. There is nothing in that class in this Charlie Hall. Personally (as we've discussed in other threads) I think he might be even better treated in the Hennessey.

i no its rent a quote from ruk on here would he have entered it etc,etc,
its a racehorse which has its mark what do you expect williams to do with it

am i the only weird al fan
still comes out best on OR...., 2/2 at the track, 1st time out figs of 2,1,1,1,1

i've played the 5/1

trev he is a solid horse, but still a horse with now something to prove. Without doubt a contender but not for me at 5/1.

Buddeliea as much as anything my response was regarding the field in DH's Hennessy as I feel Burton Port has since franked the form of the race, if a little late.

DH's price is too tight now. I did in the end take a bit of the 10s as noted on here but I am nervous that he still may not line up - he was declared twice last year including this race and then didn't pitch up. My intention was to go in again NRNB at hopefully around 8s but as he is now best priced 7s that clearly isn't going to happen and I'm not at all that confident to go in again at the price he may be post decs now

Thought DH's hennessey win was really good form. He may have been getting nearly 2 stone off Denman but he still managed to beat
him by 15 lengths which was no mean feet considering Denman looked in top shape and later in the season went on to come second in the Gold Cup. If he was in that kind of form you could argue that he'd be a 2/1 fav to win this race . But the chances of him being
in that form probably about 3/1 plus .(3/1 x 2/1 =11/1) Throw in that he may not need to be in as good form as he was that day around
8/1 + is probably the about the right price. Judgement of what physical and mental condition he'll turn up in is thus crucial.
Personally think he may have gone physically and mentally plus he isn't getting any younger but at least he's got the ability buried
within him somewhere.

Could see DH going off at 7/2-4/1.

As they set off down the backstraight for the final time in the Betfair Chase Diamond Harry's jockey James Reveley made a fateful decision that may well have a negative impact on the immediate prospects of every horse that ran in the race.

With nine fences still left to jump Reveley decided to move Diamond Harry up to take on Kauto Star for the lead. With the benefit of hindsight and sectional times the leaders should probably have been taking a breather at this point due to the strong early pace they'd been going. But, thanks to the ensuing duel between Diamond Harry and Kauto Star, they ran the roughly five furlongs from the first in the backstraight to four out 4.4 seconds faster than Grade 3 class chasers did over the same trip in the next race won by Cappa Bleu.

This brought about an unusual phenomena that I call a pace collapse where the entire field tires badly until they nearly grind to a halt approaching the finish.

From four out to two out the leaders ran 6.3% slower in the Betfair Chase than they did in Cappa Bleu's race. From two out to the last they ran 8.9% slower. From the last to the finish they ran 10.4% slower. All told they took five seconds longer to get up the homestraight.

Normally every horse that runs in a steeplechase over two and a half miles plus where there is a pace collapse requires as long as ten weeks to fully recover from the effort according to my research. However there is quite often one horse that the race brings on in fitness rather than knocks off form.

In the case of the Betfair Chase it is easy to leap to the conclusion that LONG RUN (40) will be such a horse because he was almost certainly the only runner that needed the run. You could well argue that he simply blew up through lack of fitness and this prevented him dipping as deeply into his reserves as his rivals.

Most likely this is the correct conclusion. But I reckon there's around a 20-40% chance that Long Run will be knocked back by the race as well.

What worried me the most about Long Run's performance was the way he got stretched into a string of jumping errors when Diamond Harry and Kauto Star kicked on. In addition he ballooned the last due to being tired and landed in a heap. He could so easily have crumpled on the landing side of the fence if he had set down even slightly wrong.

Before the race Long Run's trainer Nicky Henderson had voiced concerns about his charge's jumping and reported he'd just returned from extensive re-schooling with the expert in this field Yogi Bresner. This being so there has to be a concern that Long Run could once more be stretched into jumping errors in the King George.

The obvious counter arguement is that Long Run made several mistakes when running below form on his seasonal debut last term but bounced right back to take the King George next time out.

I wish I could say definitively what the right position is to adopt with Long Run after this performance. All I can say for sure is that the general odds of 6-4 now available about him for the King George make me want to look elsewhere for the winner.

KAUTO STAR (43) is clearly not the horse he once was. But he still put up a magnificent performance. He jumped boldly, set a strong pace, stood off a lengthy challenge from Diamond Harry then repelled Long Run when his old rival tried to work his way back into the race.

I honestly thought that Kauto Star was finished after he'd run a clunker at the Punchestown Festival. But trainer Paul Nicholls shrewdly reasoned that if he was ever going to win another Grade 1 it would be the Betfair Chase where he could give him a fitness edge by training him to the minute. As Nicholls said "he was very, very fit we made sure of that ... this was his Gold Cup."

It now seems clear that Nicholls' game plan all along was to win this race with Kauto Star and the King George with Master-Minded. However he and owner Clive Smith are now mulling over the idea of letting Kauto Star join Master Minded at Kempton for one last shot at the race he's won four times.

If he were mine I'd be tempted to retire Kauto Star and let him go out with a big win. He finished tired here so it's going to be hard for him to recover in time to reproduce this effort in the King George. The Gold Cup might seem a logical target if he's kept fresh. But the Cheltenham race appears to favour younger, more lightly raced horses these days - with fourteen of the last fifteen renewals going to horses that had thirteen or fewer previous starts over fences. It's hard to see what else Kauto Star could win.

Then again, thoughts like these simply highlight the wonderful difference between jump racing and flat racing where so many of the very best horses get retired before they've really shown what they can do. And no one should ever under estimate a horse that I agree is the best steeplechaser since Arkle. I think he's going to have a tough time winning again but you can argue it's great that he has the chance to try.

Third placed WEIRD AL (40) moved well for a long way and impressed with his accurate jumping at speed. But he didn't run quite up to the form he'd show when winning the Charlie Hall on his comeback. Indeed trainer Donald Mc Cain reported that jockey "Timmy Murphy said he didn't feel quite as sharp as Wetherby - which, with his track record, would be understandable. But it's a great run, and we're very pleased with him. It will be a long break, because he is definitely a better horse fresh and sharp."

Mc Cain is clearly right. Weird Al is not that robust for a chaser and almost certainly needs breaks between his runs as he requires longer to recover from them. He underwent surgery to correct partial paralysis of his larynx after running a clunker in last year's Hennessy and bled when pulling up in the Gold Cup in his comeback outing.

The major worry before Weird Al ran so badly in last year’s Hennessy was that he was legless in the closing stages in his previous start when just getting up in a slow motion finish to dead heat with subsequent Paddy Power Gold Cup winner Little Josh at Carlisle.

It was especially worrying to note that the Racing Post reporter said Weird Al looked distressed in the unsaddling enclosure after that race. I say this because it was a similar story after he'd won on his hurdling debut where he actually needed to be given oxygen he was in such a bad way.

The only win Weird Al has scored that wasn't preceded by a break of at least eight weeks was in a very slow run race on his second start last season where they were only going at racing pace for the last half mile. He'd needed a one year break after his hurdling debut win when he'd finished distressed.

It's going to be very tempting for Weird Al's connections to bring him back in the Gold Cup. But I think that race is simply too stressful for him. He had to be pulled up in it last year despite having had a break of 111 days beforehand.

The right race for Weird Al's comeback is surely the Totesport Bowl at Aintree. The tight turns and smaller field will make the race less stressful and therefore more suitable for Weird Al. And the exceptionally stiff jumps will make the most of his good jumping. If he skips the Gold Cup and goes straight to that race I'd like his chances.

Jockey James Reveley reported that fourth placed DIAMOND HARRY (37) was "flat out all the way", had finished very tired and would need a long break. This suggests to me that Diamond Harry may well need softer ground to slow the pace down. I suspect this will prove to be true as his career develops.

It does seem that Diamond Harry has recovered from the problems he experienced with a suspensory ligament. But he's clearly still inclined to push himself very hard in his races and needs time to recover from particularly stressful ones like this.

I don't know whether Diamond Harry will recover from this race in time to produce his best at Kempton in the King George. But his trainer Nick Williams says he won't run him in that race unless he feels he has recovered. So I'm going to be rather interested in his chances if he does line up and the ground is a good deal softer than it was here.

In my experience almost all horses run below form the first time they're taken on by a genuinely top class rival as Diamond Harry was here. The fact that he was able to sustain his effort for so long and actually look a big threat to win for quite some time says a lot for his qualities. I'm sure he'll be winning again in Grade 1 company sooner rather than later.

Dear oh dear Harry!

I only have myself to blame

Same here

1k down the toilet

Among his rivals on Saturday will be Diamond Harry who was well fancied for the race last year when ruled out on the day.

Jane Williams, wife of his trainer Nick, said: "He's got more excuses than any schoolboy with his homework but he is well and we are happy with him at the moment.

"He is very big and very fragile but on the course he is a magnificent horse. I think we have ironed out most of his problems unless he has found a new one!"


lol a lot has changed in 2 days

apparently had'nt done his maths bjg

1359.20 to be exact!

gutted

PA Stables ‏@PA_Stables
Charlie Hall defector Weird Al could run in Haydock’s Betfair Chase. Fellow Wetherby absentee Diamond Harry has suffered “a slight injury”.

Scrope his knee when they were takin d bubble wrap off

Master of the Hall possibly now the value at 10s, small field etc, but not sure he can defy his penalty.  Maybe PoS a better bet, good record 1st time out, and does well at these weights.

The news on Diamond Harry is less positive, with the nine-year-old having suffered yet another setback.

Owner Paul Duffy said: "Unfortunately he's picked up a slight injury and it means he won't be able to go to Wetherby, I'm afraid. It's nothing serious I'm told, but the bad luck continues. It's frustrating, but I'm getting used to the phone call leading up to a race telling me he's had another setback.

"There's a chance he could go to Wincanton (for the Badger Ales Trophy) next week if he recovers in time, or he could just go straight to Newbury (for the Hennessy Gold Cup). That is on our radar."

"1359.20 to be exact!Sad"




Ouch...does that put a dent in your season ?

Never good to lose that amount without a run but hopefully when the counting is done at end of season it shouldn't be that significant. Early season for me so its  a set back for sure.

The Hennessy it is imo.

Hennessy when Carruthers got pulled out was the last time this happened to me. At least I got my pay back on that one.

Wanted to say I was gutted but couldn't help laugh at myself for being so stupid. Told myself not to play until NRNB, said so on here and still played.

Hennessy is a good option for him off his current mark - just not AP

unlucky guys, after the comments he was on target for the race I dont blame for taking a price. Just the way it is

unlucky guys, after the comments he was on target for the race I dont blame for taking a price. Just the way it is

Get the impression the owner is calling all the shots with this horse. Trainer williams comes across as a pretty striaght
forward decent bloke and it's interesting that he (at the moment) hasn't said anything. You'd struggle to find any jumper
who hasn't got a "slight injury". Owner possibly decided he wanted to wait for the Hennessy ,just like he wanted to wait
for the Gold Cup after he won the Hennessy.

Unfortunately its one thing after another with this horse,and has been for a while now.
He was never an antepost bet with his record of setbacks plus his form of last season.

People really need to forget his form of a few years ago,especially if its costing them money.

You are right buddeliea.... may well still back him in  Hennessy though depending on price

wait till just before the off then mate,and certainly not before the day.

Good luck rest of season racingguru Hope you get it back.

was thinking of backing harry ante post on tuesday  for the charlie hall but miss williams statement did not fill me with confidence ,so held back .

Was that another attempt to get on the aftertiming thread foyles?

Got it back today but hardly the point. Even when I win I seem to lose. Took 7/1 about a horse and get whacked a 20p R4 and it returns 8's!

Cheer up Still got it back very quick!

Yes got to look at the positive. Just was hard to believe I had to take 7's on the winner with a non BOG bookie when it was way over on betfair admittedly to no volume. 2.4 points difference in price for 430 quid is a lot.

apologies for  my previous post it seems a bit smug  now (i am more mug than smug i can assure you ) as stated by other posters diamond harry cant be backed untill he is down at the start of a race ! must be as fragile as glass !