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Forget the Triple Crown bs, where's this gonna happen? Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion???
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Eclipse.....too close to Royal Ascot for Frankel
Juddmonte....too far for Frankel
Irish Champion....Frankel will not travel
Frankel will run once over 10f - in the Champion Stakes. Meanwhile Camelot will be off conquering the world in the Arc and the Classic.
Only way they meet is if O'Brien decides - having won the Derby - to drop him back in trip for the Sussex Stakes.
Juddmonte....too far for Frankel
Irish Champion....Frankel will not travel
Frankel will run once over 10f - in the Champion Stakes. Meanwhile Camelot will be off conquering the world in the Arc and the Classic.
Only way they meet is if O'Brien decides - having won the Derby - to drop him back in trip for the Sussex Stakes.
These two will not meet if Camelot remains on course for the TC. There is nothing for Coolmore to gain in beating Frankel. Potentially they can retire an unbeaten Champion son of Montjeu and also have an unbeaten champion son of Galileo going to stud too. Add in the fact Frankel is owned by a 'friendly' competitor in Juddmonte, with whom they have a reciprocal agreement with nominations (under which agreement Frankel was conceived). They can then have access to Frankel at stud.
Had Frankel been owned by Darley it may have been a different situation..............
Had Frankel been owned by Darley it may have been a different situation..............
I dont expect them 2 meet, if Camelot wins the Derby in gd style, he will be kept for the Arc, not the Triple Crown, prob with the Ire champ st as his prep. Lets see how he gets on at Epsom first.
Over 1mile it would not be a fair contest, "would it" Frankel is just to gd at that trip, prob the best EVER.
Over 1mile it would not be a fair contest, "would it" Frankel is just to gd at that trip, prob the best EVER.
Millerracing67.Camelot WILL be going to Doncaster if he wins at Epsom,the Triple Crown is very much on the agenda.He may indeed later run in the 'Arc but if all goes well the TC is his objective.St.Leger winners on their own are not wanted by flat breeders but its a whole different ball game when you become a Triple Crown winner.And Camelot's connections have had their eye on a tilt at the TC for a long time now and they are going to all being well have a crack.
£100 says they dont. If Cam wins the Derby in gd style, which he prob will (hope so as am on ew at 16s)
It will be the Arc all the way.
If he turns out as gd as most of us think he is, then he would be 2 gd 2 run in the Leger, the Arc is way more important from a stud point of view.
It will be the Arc all the way.
If he turns out as gd as most of us think he is, then he would be 2 gd 2 run in the Leger, the Arc is way more important from a stud point of view.
What a waste of a season and two great horses if this clash does not happen
Triple Crown Sentiment
June 4, 2012 by Brian O'Connor
First things first: Camelot going for the St Leger would be a welcome diversion from the norm’ and a much-needed shot in the arm for a race dying on its feet. Still, call me a sceptic, but is all this Triple Crown stuff also handy for keeping out of Frankel’s way?
Parse down the post-Derby comments from Messrs Magnier and Smith and it would be easy to conclude that a couple of old codgers have gone all sentimental. And maybe they have. But it’s short odds about it being a novel experience for both of them.
One of the most famous observations made about Magnier over the years is that the softest thing about the Coolmore boss is his teeth. The bloodstock empire he has built up is a resolutely commercial enterprise where the bottom line counts.
It is true that no Coolmore owned horse has been in the situation Camelot is in now, with a Guineas and a Derby under his belt, so it is virgin territory for all concerned in terms of what to do about a possible Triple Crown bid.
The Sea The Stars team decided to go down the ten furlong route before aiming at the Arc and anyone still prepared to criticise them for doing so should remember that getting the better of Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory and Mastercrafsman can hardly be regarded as a cop-out.
There is also the consideration that the Leger is hardly an obvious trial for the Arc which remains the definitive test for any European middle-distance horse.
Plenty still believe winning the Leger cost Nijinsky the Arc. Shergar never ran again after it. Alleged managed to win two Arcs but got beaten in the Leger. By its nature, the world’s oldest classic is a tough ‘gimme.’
So is it offside to wonder that if Frankel wasn’t on the scene, and presumably on the verge of being stepped up to ten furlongs, would Camelot be going down a more predictable route?
The Triple Crown is a hell of an achievement, and by definition requires a special talent to pull it off. And the kudos for beating up on some more three year olds might even deflect attention away from not having taken on Frankel in what really would be a clash for the ages.
But that’s probably too unsentimental a tack to take.
June 4, 2012 by Brian O'Connor
First things first: Camelot going for the St Leger would be a welcome diversion from the norm’ and a much-needed shot in the arm for a race dying on its feet. Still, call me a sceptic, but is all this Triple Crown stuff also handy for keeping out of Frankel’s way?
Parse down the post-Derby comments from Messrs Magnier and Smith and it would be easy to conclude that a couple of old codgers have gone all sentimental. And maybe they have. But it’s short odds about it being a novel experience for both of them.
One of the most famous observations made about Magnier over the years is that the softest thing about the Coolmore boss is his teeth. The bloodstock empire he has built up is a resolutely commercial enterprise where the bottom line counts.
It is true that no Coolmore owned horse has been in the situation Camelot is in now, with a Guineas and a Derby under his belt, so it is virgin territory for all concerned in terms of what to do about a possible Triple Crown bid.
The Sea The Stars team decided to go down the ten furlong route before aiming at the Arc and anyone still prepared to criticise them for doing so should remember that getting the better of Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory and Mastercrafsman can hardly be regarded as a cop-out.
There is also the consideration that the Leger is hardly an obvious trial for the Arc which remains the definitive test for any European middle-distance horse.
Plenty still believe winning the Leger cost Nijinsky the Arc. Shergar never ran again after it. Alleged managed to win two Arcs but got beaten in the Leger. By its nature, the world’s oldest classic is a tough ‘gimme.’
So is it offside to wonder that if Frankel wasn’t on the scene, and presumably on the verge of being stepped up to ten furlongs, would Camelot be going down a more predictable route?
The Triple Crown is a hell of an achievement, and by definition requires a special talent to pull it off. And the kudos for beating up on some more three year olds might even deflect attention away from not having taken on Frankel in what really would be a clash for the ages.
But that’s probably too unsentimental a tack to take.
What seems hard for some to accept is the fact Camelot's connections had an idea of a Triple Crown bid after his convincing win in the Racing Post trophy.Running him in the 2000 guineas was obviously make or break in that bid,I can tell you his trainer was very nervous on the day at HQ he knew what was wanted but got the much hoped for result.
And for anyone thinking the St Leger will scupper his chances of success if he goes for the 'Arc after Doncaster,anyone remember Alleged?
And for anyone thinking the St Leger will scupper his chances of success if he goes for the 'Arc after Doncaster,anyone remember Alleged?
And for anyone thinking the St Leger will scupper his chances of success if he goes for the 'Arc after Doncaster,anyone remember Alleged?
Yep the 1s that will remember Nijinsky as well neither managed to collect both the Leger & Arc
Yep the 1s that will remember Nijinsky as well neither managed to collect both the Leger & Arc
nijinsky wasnt 1005 for that race tho, wasnt he ill at the time?
Don't think there's any question of Coolmore avoiding Frankel. It remains to be seen if Frankel ever races beyond a mile while Camelot looks to me to be an out-and-out middle distance horse.
I would think Camelot will go King George (to notch up a win over older horses) then Leger. I'm trying to remember if there was a reason Galileo missed the Arc - it would not suprise me if Camelot rounded off in the Champion Stakes to put a 10f on the resumé.
I would think Camelot will go King George (to notch up a win over older horses) then Leger. I'm trying to remember if there was a reason Galileo missed the Arc - it would not suprise me if Camelot rounded off in the Champion Stakes to put a 10f on the resumé.
geoff m 07 Jun 12 10:26
And for anyone thinking the St Leger will scupper his chances of success if he goes for the 'Arc after Doncaster,anyone remember Alleged?
Yep the 1s that will remember Nijinsky as well neither managed to collect both the Leger & Arc
But don't you see just what a stallion marketing goldmine that will be if he does pull it off?And also the St Leger will almost certainly be nothing more than a hack canter for Camelot,add in 3 weeks until the 'Arc you will still have a fresh horse.I'd guess his targets this year will be Irish Derby,King George little mid summer break then Doncaster followed by the 'Arc then retirement!
And for anyone thinking the St Leger will scupper his chances of success if he goes for the 'Arc after Doncaster,anyone remember Alleged?
Yep the 1s that will remember Nijinsky as well neither managed to collect both the Leger & Arc
But don't you see just what a stallion marketing goldmine that will be if he does pull it off?And also the St Leger will almost certainly be nothing more than a hack canter for Camelot,add in 3 weeks until the 'Arc you will still have a fresh horse.I'd guess his targets this year will be Irish Derby,King George little mid summer break then Doncaster followed by the 'Arc then retirement!
Sir Henry knows the score
Cecil keen to let Frankel take on Camelot
By Paul Eacott 2:39PM 8 JUN 2012
SIR HENRY CECIL on Friday spoke of his excitement about the prospect of his superstar colt Frankel going head-to-head with the brilliant dual Classic winner Camelot in the Juddmonte International Stakes at York in August.
That race looks like being the first time Frankel, the winner of all of his ten starts so far, will race beyond a mile with the Queen Anne Stakes at Royal Ascot in less than two weeks time and the Qipco Sussex Stakes at Glorious Goodwood on August 1 his next two targets.
Plans for Camelot, who added the Derby to his win in the Guineas and two successes last year, are more fluid. He heads the betting for the Ladbrokes St Leger and Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe later in the year and also the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby at the Curragh later in the month.
It is, however, the possibility of a clash between the two stars of the Flat at York on August 22 that has racing fans licking their lips and Cecil himself is among the camp who would like to see that momentous event occur.
"That would be very exciting," Cecil said. "[Camelot] can still do the Irish Derby, the Juddmonte and the St Leger and I am doing the Sussex Stakes and [then] three weeks after the Juddmonte. He is doing the Irish Derby and a longer break before the Juddmonte and can still go and do the Leger.
"Hopefully [Camelot] will go for the Juddmonte and I would love it because it would be exciting," Cecil told At The Races.
Frankel beat old foe Excelebration by five lengths on his reappearance at Newbury in the Lockinge Stakes last month and Cecil expects him to improve for that outing.
"I am not saying he is going to be but he could be [3 or 4lb better]," the legendary trainer said.
"I think he is better, he is stronger this year. I didn't push him but I have never pushed him for his first race anyway, as a two-year-old, a three-year-old or four-year-old. Like a lot of trainers we don't have them 100 per cent first time out, that is just the beginning.
Looking ahead to the rest of the season, Cecil continued: "He has got important engagements as the season goes on and the main thing is as long as he can win, let's hope he can win well, it does not matter if it is two lengths or ten lengths.
"The Juddmonte will be the most interesting as he is going another two and a half furlongs and he is going against different horses."
Cecil keen to let Frankel take on Camelot
By Paul Eacott 2:39PM 8 JUN 2012
SIR HENRY CECIL on Friday spoke of his excitement about the prospect of his superstar colt Frankel going head-to-head with the brilliant dual Classic winner Camelot in the Juddmonte International Stakes at York in August.
That race looks like being the first time Frankel, the winner of all of his ten starts so far, will race beyond a mile with the Queen Anne Stakes at Royal Ascot in less than two weeks time and the Qipco Sussex Stakes at Glorious Goodwood on August 1 his next two targets.
Plans for Camelot, who added the Derby to his win in the Guineas and two successes last year, are more fluid. He heads the betting for the Ladbrokes St Leger and Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe later in the year and also the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby at the Curragh later in the month.
It is, however, the possibility of a clash between the two stars of the Flat at York on August 22 that has racing fans licking their lips and Cecil himself is among the camp who would like to see that momentous event occur.
"That would be very exciting," Cecil said. "[Camelot] can still do the Irish Derby, the Juddmonte and the St Leger and I am doing the Sussex Stakes and [then] three weeks after the Juddmonte. He is doing the Irish Derby and a longer break before the Juddmonte and can still go and do the Leger.
"Hopefully [Camelot] will go for the Juddmonte and I would love it because it would be exciting," Cecil told At The Races.
Frankel beat old foe Excelebration by five lengths on his reappearance at Newbury in the Lockinge Stakes last month and Cecil expects him to improve for that outing.
"I am not saying he is going to be but he could be [3 or 4lb better]," the legendary trainer said.
"I think he is better, he is stronger this year. I didn't push him but I have never pushed him for his first race anyway, as a two-year-old, a three-year-old or four-year-old. Like a lot of trainers we don't have them 100 per cent first time out, that is just the beginning.
Looking ahead to the rest of the season, Cecil continued: "He has got important engagements as the season goes on and the main thing is as long as he can win, let's hope he can win well, it does not matter if it is two lengths or ten lengths.
"The Juddmonte will be the most interesting as he is going another two and a half furlongs and he is going against different horses."
henry knows camelot isnt going for the juddmonte as is wisely covering himself. why on earth would camelot come back in trip for the juddmonte when he can achieve so much more winning bigger races.
^^^ my sentiments exactly ilikewavingatbuses,Sir Henry must think some of us came in on the banana boat!
Sir Henry has laid down the gauntlet. Never had him down as the the bulsh!tting type myself. We await Coolmoore's riposte with breath that is bated.
So Sir Henry has said where his horse is running, bet he wouldn't change his plans to ensure a clash though would he?
Though after the Leger the most likely race would be the Arc, as I have said on another thread, would love to see Camelot wait for the Champion Stakes. That would be a great finale to the season and that could help build a reputation for the race that could start to rival the Arc
Though after the Leger the most likely race would be the Arc, as I have said on another thread, would love to see Camelot wait for the Champion Stakes. That would be a great finale to the season and that could help build a reputation for the race that could start to rival the Arc
lads with all due respect, how stupid can some of you be.
look henry is a very smart man, as ive mentioned on another thread on the main forum, henry has already mapped out camelots programme this year, guineas and derby already won, now he doesnt see the 'problem' in camelot going for the irish derby, coming back to 10f for the juddmonte (which he knows hes not lining up for anyway) and then up to 14f for the leger. all this whilst frankel beats up excelebration or strong suit over a mile (AGAIN
), steps u to 10f for a likely small field (where i have no doubt coolmore will be represented) and then back to a mile for the sussex (over a mile again)
thats a hell of a programme henry has mapped out for his biggest rival, im not sure dropping back to 10 before a go at the leger is a great idea what do u lot think?
then we look at frankels campaign, what a joke, beating up excelebration for the feckin 4th time over a mile last season, take about unambitious but i suppose 'hes just doing whats good for the horse' then we hear the old he still isnt settling and they wanna make sure hes ready for the step up even tho he settled perfectly in the sussex making his own running and then the same at ascot at the end of the season. gimme a break henry. camelot has already achieved more than frankel in 4 runs, forget ratings, if he wins the leger he will join an elite club in the racing ranks that only a handful of horses have ever done. let frankel run in lesser races and beat up the same milers in the sussex and allow camelot to win the best races he possibly can.
race him next year over 12 aidan
look henry is a very smart man, as ive mentioned on another thread on the main forum, henry has already mapped out camelots programme this year, guineas and derby already won, now he doesnt see the 'problem' in camelot going for the irish derby, coming back to 10f for the juddmonte (which he knows hes not lining up for anyway) and then up to 14f for the leger. all this whilst frankel beats up excelebration or strong suit over a mile (AGAIN
), steps u to 10f for a likely small field (where i have no doubt coolmore will be represented) and then back to a mile for the sussex (over a mile again)thats a hell of a programme henry has mapped out for his biggest rival, im not sure dropping back to 10 before a go at the leger is a great idea what do u lot think?
then we look at frankels campaign, what a joke, beating up excelebration for the feckin 4th time over a mile last season, take about unambitious but i suppose 'hes just doing whats good for the horse' then we hear the old he still isnt settling and they wanna make sure hes ready for the step up even tho he settled perfectly in the sussex making his own running and then the same at ascot at the end of the season. gimme a break henry. camelot has already achieved more than frankel in 4 runs, forget ratings, if he wins the leger he will join an elite club in the racing ranks that only a handful of horses have ever done. let frankel run in lesser races and beat up the same milers in the sussex and allow camelot to win the best races he possibly can.race him next year over 12 aidan
roobuck
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09 Jun 12 07:54
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So Sir Henry has said where his horse is running, bet he wouldn't change his plans to ensure a clash though would he?
Though after the Leger the most likely race would be the Arc, as I have said on another thread, would love to see Camelot wait for the Champion Stakes. That would be a great finale to the season and that could help build a reputation for the race that could start to rival the Arc
roo the champion is a substandard backend group 1 for over the top horses as a last resort because the horse has either disappointed in the arc or isnt going to the states. why would a horse like camelot race in that when he can potentially win the feckin ARC? a race tailormade for him over his obvious prefered distance and is of far greater value for both breeding and for prize money. why should camelot drop in trip to suit frankel and henry?
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09 Jun 12 07:54
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So Sir Henry has said where his horse is running, bet he wouldn't change his plans to ensure a clash though would he?
Though after the Leger the most likely race would be the Arc, as I have said on another thread, would love to see Camelot wait for the Champion Stakes. That would be a great finale to the season and that could help build a reputation for the race that could start to rival the Arc
roo the champion is a substandard backend group 1 for over the top horses as a last resort because the horse has either disappointed in the arc or isnt going to the states. why would a horse like camelot race in that when he can potentially win the feckin ARC? a race tailormade for him over his obvious prefered distance and is of far greater value for both breeding and for prize money. why should camelot drop in trip to suit frankel and henry?
This is most un-ILWAB-like 
"all this whilst frankel beats up excelebration or strong suit over a mile (AGAIN), steps u to 10f for a likely small field (where i have no doubt coolmore will be represented) and then back to a mile for the sussex (over a mile again)"
I'm assuming you mean the Juddmonte, which in all my years, I can't recall being BEFORE the Sussex
Needless to say...you'll post that you meant the Eclipse and try to squirm your way out of such a wretched hole
"all this whilst frankel beats up excelebration or strong suit over a mile (AGAIN), steps u to 10f for a likely small field (where i have no doubt coolmore will be represented) and then back to a mile for the sussex (over a mile again)"
I'm assuming you mean the Juddmonte, which in all my years, I can't recall being BEFORE the Sussex
Needless to say...you'll post that you meant the Eclipse and try to squirm your way out of such a wretched hole
Got to say H Cecil makes me laugh with his 'excitement' at the thought of Frankel being challenged by Camelot in the Juddmonte. How on Earth is that going to happen Henry? So you think dropping Camelot back to 10f as prep for his attempt at the 14f Triple Crown event is ideal preparation. Clearly not, this is his attempt to keep Frankel wrapped up in cotton wool; it really was pointless keeping the thing in training when all you are doing is confirming the same superiority of the same listed/G3 horses over the same distance.
All through the winter Frankel was going to have its seasonal debut in the Lochinge then step up to 10f at RA. Where's you bollocks gone fella. I can understand you not stepping Frankel back to 6f to get a butchering off the imperious Black Caviar but surely to God there is no reason to delay any further attempting the step up to 10f now; the horse even seems to settle that bit better so give it a go.
Whatever, stop the embarrassing posturing of pretending to want to meet Camelot over 10f when there is more chance of meeting Black Caviar of hurdles!!
All through the winter Frankel was going to have its seasonal debut in the Lochinge then step up to 10f at RA. Where's you bollocks gone fella. I can understand you not stepping Frankel back to 6f to get a butchering off the imperious Black Caviar but surely to God there is no reason to delay any further attempting the step up to 10f now; the horse even seems to settle that bit better so give it a go.
Whatever, stop the embarrassing posturing of pretending to want to meet Camelot over 10f when there is more chance of meeting Black Caviar of hurdles!!
I think ILWAB is correct in stating there'll be a small field in the Juddmonte and consequently Frankel will not be properly tested.
Unless he's REALLY stretching to the line at York in the unlikely event of a strongly run race, I have a feeling this will be the only time we'll see him over 10f (therefore no chance of an Arc run) and I hate to say it, but it does seem like Henry's balls are shrinking.
I don't think he'll risk his unbeaten record with an adventurous & ambitious campaign, and I suspect Cecil figures over the York C&D in a small field, Frankel would thrash Camelot! I'm of the same view.
In an ideal situation, it'd be nice to see Frankel beat Camelot handsomely, and for the runner-up to lose NO caste in defeat (like Bustino) and in fact have his reputation further ENHANCED in winning ALL his other races!
Furthermore, for Camelot to replace Frankel as the 'people's horse' and then becoming the most sought after stallion in the world!
It'd be a victory for the sport in that fortune favours the brave - we can dream can't we?
Unless he's REALLY stretching to the line at York in the unlikely event of a strongly run race, I have a feeling this will be the only time we'll see him over 10f (therefore no chance of an Arc run) and I hate to say it, but it does seem like Henry's balls are shrinking.
I don't think he'll risk his unbeaten record with an adventurous & ambitious campaign, and I suspect Cecil figures over the York C&D in a small field, Frankel would thrash Camelot! I'm of the same view.
In an ideal situation, it'd be nice to see Frankel beat Camelot handsomely, and for the runner-up to lose NO caste in defeat (like Bustino) and in fact have his reputation further ENHANCED in winning ALL his other races!
Furthermore, for Camelot to replace Frankel as the 'people's horse' and then becoming the most sought after stallion in the world!
It'd be a victory for the sport in that fortune favours the brave - we can dream can't we?
I'm as big a fan of Cecil as everyone else seems to be, but I did think he was rather arrogant when interviewed on RUK, when Sick Fcuk asked some very pertinent questions.
I could understand him comparing Frankel with Camelot & Black Caviar over their optimal trips in relation to Usain Bolt racing over 800 or even 400 metres...but a MARATHON!
That's a ludicrous analogy, and it looked like he resented being 'cornered' with a poser he didn't like.
We ALL know that Frankel would be long odds-on in ANY race against 'normal' group one opposition over 6f - 10f.
I could understand him comparing Frankel with Camelot & Black Caviar over their optimal trips in relation to Usain Bolt racing over 800 or even 400 metres...but a MARATHON!
That's a ludicrous analogy, and it looked like he resented being 'cornered' with a poser he didn't like.
We ALL know that Frankel would be long odds-on in ANY race against 'normal' group one opposition over 6f - 10f.
ILWAB - think you should engage brain and understand the point people are trying to make before going off on one.
I understand that most likely to go the Arc but want him to go for Champion not for HRAC's or Frankel's benefit -purely mine ( and I'm guessing quite a lot of racing people ) to see the clash happen. It won't happen in the Juddmonte for the reasons you mention.
Traditionally the Champion has been a poor Group 1 but there is obviously an attempt to improve this with the Champion series and moving to Ascot. If Camelot is in fact an unbeaten Triple Crown winner and Frankel is still unbeaten, Prince Fad I'm sure would put the extra money up required to make it happen if that was an issue.
I know it is very unlikely to happen, but I want to see it. that's all
I understand that most likely to go the Arc but want him to go for Champion not for HRAC's or Frankel's benefit -purely mine ( and I'm guessing quite a lot of racing people ) to see the clash happen. It won't happen in the Juddmonte for the reasons you mention.
Traditionally the Champion has been a poor Group 1 but there is obviously an attempt to improve this with the Champion series and moving to Ascot. If Camelot is in fact an unbeaten Triple Crown winner and Frankel is still unbeaten, Prince Fad I'm sure would put the extra money up required to make it happen if that was an issue.
I know it is very unlikely to happen, but I want to see it. that's all
i appreciate u want to see the clash roo and i would be happy to watch the clash too but dont u think its a bit funny henry is planning this campaign for camelot up and down in trips like a yo-yo yet hes happy to keep frankel at a mile until the end of his 4yr old season? henry KNOWS the juddmonte is NOT on camelots agenda and is simply (and cleverly) making it look like he wants them to meet even tho he knows theres no chance of it happening. everything is in frankels favour for that race, the horse has had an easy time of it his whole life and his connections have molly coddled him never once wanting to test the feckin colt. under any other connections this horse wouldve seen 10f (at least) by now. now hes trying to coax aidan to run him in a race over 10 and the horse clearly wants 12f and doing so would severely put his triple crown chances in jeopardy.
i have never seen henry do this before and i reckon he just wants the scalp of a guineas and derby winner over an inadequate trip (for camelot) and entirely in favour of frankel. henry will only race frankel under handpicked conditions and i suggest aidan does the same for camelot, perhaps beating camelot would would ease the regret of not going for the derby last season who knows but whilst many applaude henrys handling of frankel, i see it as completely gutless and a complete waste of time. just look what camelot has achieved in 4 runs and look at what he still might achieve. then look at frankel, as brilliant as he undoubtedly is, hes won a guineas and a few mile races beating the same horse excel and canford once in a division absolutely devoid of depth. henry has run scared with this colt his whole career, frankel even gets credit for beating an irish derby winner in treasure beach and a king george winner in nathaniel even tho he beat the latter in his first ever race over a mile and he beat TB in the royal lodge at 2 u would think he beat both horses over 12f they way they talk.
frankel isnt even ENTERED in the prince of wales? wtf isnt this horse running in that race? joke of a campaign, im bored.
i have never seen henry do this before and i reckon he just wants the scalp of a guineas and derby winner over an inadequate trip (for camelot) and entirely in favour of frankel. henry will only race frankel under handpicked conditions and i suggest aidan does the same for camelot, perhaps beating camelot would would ease the regret of not going for the derby last season who knows but whilst many applaude henrys handling of frankel, i see it as completely gutless and a complete waste of time. just look what camelot has achieved in 4 runs and look at what he still might achieve. then look at frankel, as brilliant as he undoubtedly is, hes won a guineas and a few mile races beating the same horse excel and canford once in a division absolutely devoid of depth. henry has run scared with this colt his whole career, frankel even gets credit for beating an irish derby winner in treasure beach and a king george winner in nathaniel even tho he beat the latter in his first ever race over a mile and he beat TB in the royal lodge at 2
u would think he beat both horses over 12f they way they talk.frankel isnt even ENTERED in the prince of wales? wtf isnt this horse running in that race? joke of a campaign, im bored.
Frankel is in the Prince of Wales and IMO should take the opportunity to run in it against fellow older horses before the 3yos enter the fray. Some good middle distance horses will turn up - Cirrus, SYT, perhaps others - and the question of Frankel's effectiveness over a longer trip could be settled relatively early in the season. Beating Excelebration again in the Queen Anne will just be deja vu - exciting though it will be to watch Frankel again
It can't be that clever a ploy of Henry's if you've worked it out ILWAB.
not my fault u dont understand whats going on here joni. its as plain as the nose on your face henry knows the juddmonte is not the plan for camelot. ironically im sure he believes camelot would get beat by frankel anyway but hes still making the comments knowin it wasnt ever happening. just like a race was neevr gonna yake place with BC. all just to save face. i like henry as much as everyone else but he got frankels campaign wrong, the horse couldve achieved so much more and even if he couldnt have, at least had he tried to run him over 10 by now we'd know and we could just be happy to see him run over a mile, instead theres all this 'what if....'.
a wasted opportunity.
a wasted opportunity.
i like henry as much as everyone else but he got frankels campaign wrong,
So one of the best trainers of all time is wrong ..... and you're correct. I didn't realise this forum had posters of such high esteem.
So one of the best trainers of all time is wrong ..... and you're correct. I didn't realise this forum had posters of such high esteem.
Completely agree with Ilwab re Frankel.
Should be running in POW imo as the Queen Anne likely to be very small field and him beating horses he has already beaten. And then the Sussex to take on the vintage crop of 3yo milers?
Not sure I see the point of keeping him in training at the moment tbh. Yes its good to see a great athlete but we need to find out how good he is and that means a change of distance
Should be running in POW imo as the Queen Anne likely to be very small field and him beating horses he has already beaten. And then the Sussex to take on the vintage crop of 3yo milers?
Not sure I see the point of keeping him in training at the moment tbh. Yes its good to see a great athlete but we need to find out how good he is and that means a change of distance
Ilwab, you make some very valid points r ececils handling of Frankel, which up until now i believe to have been near faultless. However their current lack of ambition and/or sporting spirit with regards to stepping him up in trip( and consequently standard of racing, is doing a great disservice to the racing fraternity and flat product as a whole. The obvious first port of call imo should have been that shambles of a world cup @ Meydan. You cannot tell me that frankel would not have outclassed monterosso, Planteur,capponi and the like, over any trip you may care to mention. You might argue that by going to Dubai so early you leave your season behind, and their is a school of thought to suuport this theory, but plenty of top horses have won or run well in the world cup and sheema classic and then gone on to win multiple goup 1 races in europe and America, suchas the mighty dubai millenium, singspiel, Rewilding, Cape Blanco, Cigar ,victoire Pisa, Da re Mi to name but a few. If he had gone there he would have proved himself not only over 10f but also on an artificial surface, which would have allowed his connections to truly lay claim to having the best thoroughbred in the world over any trip/surface. This has not happened, and now we have the QA, Sussex which will tell us nothing new. What would make the Juddmonte interesting is if AOB sent H queen,Excelebration and power as truly group 1 pacemakers for camelot to set the kind of world record fractions that would truly stretch the mighty Frankel, and give camelot a fighting chance of beating this mighty horse. Coolmore nearly pulled this tactic off with Mastercraftsman against sts, and it would be a truly fantastic spectacle to see this scenario unfold.
The problem with your earlier rant ILWAB is that your one reasonable arguement loses all credibility because of all the moronic tripe you posted with it.
To say that all he did last year was win "a guineas and a few mile races beating the same horse excel and canford once in a division absolutely devoid of depth" is clueless. In addition to 5 time Group 1 winner Canford Cliffs and Excel you leave out 5 time Group 1 winner Dream Ahead who he beat twice and who beat Goldikova over 7f. You leave out three time Group 1 winner Immortal Verse. In fact he has beaten the winners of 29 Group 1 races. Arguably the mile division had more depth than the 10f division last year where you only really had Cirrhus, Snow Fairy and SYT - remember the Juddmonte? Over a mile there was Goldi, Imm Verse, Canford, and Excel and Frankel beat three of those - two of which had beaten Goldi.
You even seem to want to decry him for beating TB and Nathaniel. Why would you NOT want to give him credit for that?! He might not have beaten Nathaniel over his optimum trip but he certainly beat him over his optimum conditions in a canter. Treasure Beach has won a Grade 1 over 10f so is clearly not devoid of paceand he was beaten 11 lengths. 11 lengths!!! No credit for that huh? Talk sense man.
By all means have an opinion on his race programme this year but to knock what he has done over his 2 and 3 year old campaigns is frankly embarrassing and either shows a supreme lack of knowledge and understanding or suggests there is some other agenda going on.
Roo I am disappointed with your comments as I always like reading what you say but I can understand why people are frustrated at his proposed campaign and here ILWAB has a very valid point. Personally I think the Lockinge was the perfect starting point for a horse who lets remember, despite what we might have WANTED him to be, was a miler last year. Then there was always the choice of QA or POW. I too would have preferred POW but they have gone with QA. Then the talk was of the Eclipse but now it looks like being the Sussex. This is a big head scratcher for me. I can only think that Henry still has doubts that Frankel will get a truly run 10f over a stiff track like Ascot or Sandown. York, despite being half a furlong longer, is a much easier track and I am assuming that is the reason they are waiting til then. I hope a decent field turns up, lets not forget Sea The Stars ran there. Henry has said in interview recently "what are we trying to prove?" - connections take on it seems to be that as long as they step him up at some point that will be enough.
I was stood 2 feet away from Henry when he was interviewed by Nick Luck at Newmarket and to suggest that this was some ingenious cover up is of course ludicrous. I have even heard some people say he was trying to map out Camelot's campaign for him?! What he was doing guys is called HYPOTHESISING. It is perfectly valid to suggest that Camelot could in theory run in the Juddmonte or the Champion. Of course he could and if Coolmore wanted to prove they have the better horse than what better way to show it than taking on Frankel? One thing Henry has never done with Frankel is change his plans because of the opposition.
Will they ever meet? No. But I would suggest not because Henry doesnt want it. I am very doubtful that Coolmore would want to see their future Triple Crown winner thumped. Better to leave it as an open ended question.
I will be there for the remainder of Frankels races because he is a legend and joy to watch and I for one am delighted that they sportingly kept him in training when it would have been far easier to retire him as so many others do. Soon we will be talking about this horse in the past tense so I want to enjoy him in the present. Would I have chosen this programme? No. Am I slightly disappointed? Yes. But it is outweighed by the thrill of seeing him in action. Nobody complains when Bolt beats the same runners every time. Nobody seems to worry when Quevega wins the same race at Cheltenham or Big Bucks. The problem with Frankel is that he is SOOOOO good he actually makes it look unfair on the others. But if seeing this once in a lifetime horse in action bores you I might respectfully suggest you are following the wrong sport.
To say that all he did last year was win "a guineas and a few mile races beating the same horse excel and canford once in a division absolutely devoid of depth" is clueless. In addition to 5 time Group 1 winner Canford Cliffs and Excel you leave out 5 time Group 1 winner Dream Ahead who he beat twice and who beat Goldikova over 7f. You leave out three time Group 1 winner Immortal Verse. In fact he has beaten the winners of 29 Group 1 races. Arguably the mile division had more depth than the 10f division last year where you only really had Cirrhus, Snow Fairy and SYT - remember the Juddmonte? Over a mile there was Goldi, Imm Verse, Canford, and Excel and Frankel beat three of those - two of which had beaten Goldi.
You even seem to want to decry him for beating TB and Nathaniel. Why would you NOT want to give him credit for that?! He might not have beaten Nathaniel over his optimum trip but he certainly beat him over his optimum conditions in a canter. Treasure Beach has won a Grade 1 over 10f so is clearly not devoid of paceand he was beaten 11 lengths. 11 lengths!!! No credit for that huh? Talk sense man.
By all means have an opinion on his race programme this year but to knock what he has done over his 2 and 3 year old campaigns is frankly embarrassing and either shows a supreme lack of knowledge and understanding or suggests there is some other agenda going on.
Roo I am disappointed with your comments as I always like reading what you say but I can understand why people are frustrated at his proposed campaign and here ILWAB has a very valid point. Personally I think the Lockinge was the perfect starting point for a horse who lets remember, despite what we might have WANTED him to be, was a miler last year. Then there was always the choice of QA or POW. I too would have preferred POW but they have gone with QA. Then the talk was of the Eclipse but now it looks like being the Sussex. This is a big head scratcher for me. I can only think that Henry still has doubts that Frankel will get a truly run 10f over a stiff track like Ascot or Sandown. York, despite being half a furlong longer, is a much easier track and I am assuming that is the reason they are waiting til then. I hope a decent field turns up, lets not forget Sea The Stars ran there. Henry has said in interview recently "what are we trying to prove?" - connections take on it seems to be that as long as they step him up at some point that will be enough.
I was stood 2 feet away from Henry when he was interviewed by Nick Luck at Newmarket and to suggest that this was some ingenious cover up is of course ludicrous. I have even heard some people say he was trying to map out Camelot's campaign for him?! What he was doing guys is called HYPOTHESISING. It is perfectly valid to suggest that Camelot could in theory run in the Juddmonte or the Champion. Of course he could and if Coolmore wanted to prove they have the better horse than what better way to show it than taking on Frankel? One thing Henry has never done with Frankel is change his plans because of the opposition.
Will they ever meet? No. But I would suggest not because Henry doesnt want it. I am very doubtful that Coolmore would want to see their future Triple Crown winner thumped. Better to leave it as an open ended question.
I will be there for the remainder of Frankels races because he is a legend and joy to watch and I for one am delighted that they sportingly kept him in training when it would have been far easier to retire him as so many others do. Soon we will be talking about this horse in the past tense so I want to enjoy him in the present. Would I have chosen this programme? No. Am I slightly disappointed? Yes. But it is outweighed by the thrill of seeing him in action. Nobody complains when Bolt beats the same runners every time. Nobody seems to worry when Quevega wins the same race at Cheltenham or Big Bucks. The problem with Frankel is that he is SOOOOO good he actually makes it look unfair on the others. But if seeing this once in a lifetime horse in action bores you I might respectfully suggest you are following the wrong sport.
Interesting the amount of times Usain Bolt is mentioned.
Bolt made his name over 200m before(ironically) dropping back in trip to test himself at 100m. We also get to see him race in the 4x100m every now and then.
People will be bored of Frankel by the time the Sussex comes along and No matter how much people try and hype up Frankel he'll be remembered as a 'what if' horse than a 'what he did' horse such as Brigadier Gerrard.
Bolt made his name over 200m before(ironically) dropping back in trip to test himself at 100m. We also get to see him race in the 4x100m every now and then.
People will be bored of Frankel by the time the Sussex comes along and No matter how much people try and hype up Frankel he'll be remembered as a 'what if' horse than a 'what he did' horse such as Brigadier Gerrard.
Joni I have no problem whatsoever with his 3yo campaign, other than he could perhaps have had another run.
I know that you are HRAC's number one fan but surely you are frustrated by the conservative nature of his campaign this year, the traditional English Group 1s. Not even an entry in the Irish Champion which is basically the same gap that would be for Camelot after the Juddmonte to the St Leger.
It is great to have him in training but what actually is the purpose - simply to mop up some easy Group 1s because he is so good over a mile?
I love racing but also love most sports. But really the only time I really engage is when it is competitive, when all parties need to be stretched to be successful. Most top level sportsmen having proved themselves tend to look for the next challenge to test their abilities and those that don't, are criticised for a lack of ambition.
To the examples you gave as mentioned Usain Bolt runs over both 100 and 200m, and I believe he has tried 400m though I cannot be sure about that.
Big Bucks if you remember tried steeplechasing. Also it is slightly different as at each festival he has different challengers.
Quevega imo should run in the World Hurdle. The clash against BB would be great for the sport.
You say that Frankel is a once in a lifetime horse and he could very well be so. In full flow he is a sight to behold. But Sea The Stars and perhaps Camelot have an awful lot going for them and it can be argued that they have achieved more. You think that Frankel will beat Camelot but you don't actually know and the problem with Cecil is that he is suggesting what races other horses should run in to meet Frankel as he will not change course. As you rightly say he won't change plans to make a clash and that in my mind, however much I rate him a trainer, is not particularly sporting and having racing best interests at heart.
If he is worried about getting the trip, why not drop back in distance for one race? I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would beat every European horse over 6F and so the July Cup or even the Haydock Sprint would be something different if Cecil insisted on staying in this country.
Of course he won't but beating the same horses at Ascot and Goodwood will not be the spectacle they could be if Frankel's next two races were over a new distance. Boring is perhaps the wrong word, but you cannot help to feel a little underwhelmed when as requestingflyby says 'what if'
I know that you are HRAC's number one fan but surely you are frustrated by the conservative nature of his campaign this year, the traditional English Group 1s. Not even an entry in the Irish Champion which is basically the same gap that would be for Camelot after the Juddmonte to the St Leger.
It is great to have him in training but what actually is the purpose - simply to mop up some easy Group 1s because he is so good over a mile?
I love racing but also love most sports. But really the only time I really engage is when it is competitive, when all parties need to be stretched to be successful. Most top level sportsmen having proved themselves tend to look for the next challenge to test their abilities and those that don't, are criticised for a lack of ambition.
To the examples you gave as mentioned Usain Bolt runs over both 100 and 200m, and I believe he has tried 400m though I cannot be sure about that.
Big Bucks if you remember tried steeplechasing. Also it is slightly different as at each festival he has different challengers.
Quevega imo should run in the World Hurdle. The clash against BB would be great for the sport.
You say that Frankel is a once in a lifetime horse and he could very well be so. In full flow he is a sight to behold. But Sea The Stars and perhaps Camelot have an awful lot going for them and it can be argued that they have achieved more. You think that Frankel will beat Camelot but you don't actually know and the problem with Cecil is that he is suggesting what races other horses should run in to meet Frankel as he will not change course. As you rightly say he won't change plans to make a clash and that in my mind, however much I rate him a trainer, is not particularly sporting and having racing best interests at heart.
If he is worried about getting the trip, why not drop back in distance for one race? I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would beat every European horse over 6F and so the July Cup or even the Haydock Sprint would be something different if Cecil insisted on staying in this country.
Of course he won't but beating the same horses at Ascot and Goodwood will not be the spectacle they could be if Frankel's next two races were over a new distance. Boring is perhaps the wrong word, but you cannot help to feel a little underwhelmed when as requestingflyby says 'what if'
I agree with virtually all of what you say Roo. As I said in my post I am slightly disappointed at this campaign. Especially the decision to go to the Sussex.
You are correct that it is only my opinion that he would beat Camelot but I am not sure how you can argue that Camelot has achieved more than Frankel - yet. Sea The Stars was of course a legend and again I can see why people would argue that he has achieved more. Both have clearly shown that they were more versatile than Frankel but is versatility the only measure of greatness?
Frankel was a champion at 2, 3 and now 4. STS only at 3. Frankel has won on all types of ground. John Oxx didnt want to run STS on worse than good. Frankel wins his races by wide margins. STS did just enough. They are both great horses and Camelot is well on his way as well. We are blessed to be seeing them all so close together - not to mention a certain Australian mare!
You are right that Henry wont change his plans but I doubt Coolmore would either do you?
As I have said there are some very valid arguements here but what I object to (and the reason I rarely post on here anymore) is people putting down what this horse has done so far. That is nonsensical. If, by the end of the season he has only beaten donkeys in a series of processions I too will be bitterly disappointed. I am prepared to be patient and wait for the Juddmonte and The Champion and hope that he will show what he can do over further at least against the likes of Cirrhus and Snow Fairy if not Camelot.
You are correct that it is only my opinion that he would beat Camelot but I am not sure how you can argue that Camelot has achieved more than Frankel - yet. Sea The Stars was of course a legend and again I can see why people would argue that he has achieved more. Both have clearly shown that they were more versatile than Frankel but is versatility the only measure of greatness?
Frankel was a champion at 2, 3 and now 4. STS only at 3. Frankel has won on all types of ground. John Oxx didnt want to run STS on worse than good. Frankel wins his races by wide margins. STS did just enough. They are both great horses and Camelot is well on his way as well. We are blessed to be seeing them all so close together - not to mention a certain Australian mare!
You are right that Henry wont change his plans but I doubt Coolmore would either do you?
As I have said there are some very valid arguements here but what I object to (and the reason I rarely post on here anymore) is people putting down what this horse has done so far. That is nonsensical. If, by the end of the season he has only beaten donkeys in a series of processions I too will be bitterly disappointed. I am prepared to be patient and wait for the Juddmonte and The Champion and hope that he will show what he can do over further at least against the likes of Cirrhus and Snow Fairy if not Camelot.
Frankel to me is like Dayjur - a horse of freakish ability. The shame is that we'll probably never know if he was also another Brigadier Gerard.
Frankel is not yet a Champion 4yo though I am sure he will be
Camelot won a Group 1 in his second race as a 2yo, and two Group 1s/Classics over 1/2 mile difference at 3 and I would suggest just as impressively in different ways to Frankel.
What STS achieved in his 3yo campaign was extraordinary and I would be surprised if we ever see the like again. His performance in the Arc, regardless of the strength of the field, when pulling hard, trapped in on the rail and win going away at the end of a busy season was simply immense.
I guess the frustrating thing is that as AT says Frankel hints at having even more ability but I just want to see him given the opportunity to prove it.
Finally Coolmore have a history of taking their horses all over the world to race. Camelot is in his 3yo campaign and it appears the Triple Crown is the objective. I would suggest that this is sporting enough given the recent rejection of the St Leger from a breeding perspective.
Anyway as you say we are blessed to have seen these three horses in such a short space of time. Time will tell what both Frankel and Camelot achieve.
Camelot won a Group 1 in his second race as a 2yo, and two Group 1s/Classics over 1/2 mile difference at 3 and I would suggest just as impressively in different ways to Frankel.
What STS achieved in his 3yo campaign was extraordinary and I would be surprised if we ever see the like again. His performance in the Arc, regardless of the strength of the field, when pulling hard, trapped in on the rail and win going away at the end of a busy season was simply immense.
I guess the frustrating thing is that as AT says Frankel hints at having even more ability but I just want to see him given the opportunity to prove it.
Finally Coolmore have a history of taking their horses all over the world to race. Camelot is in his 3yo campaign and it appears the Triple Crown is the objective. I would suggest that this is sporting enough given the recent rejection of the St Leger from a breeding perspective.
Anyway as you say we are blessed to have seen these three horses in such a short space of time. Time will tell what both Frankel and Camelot achieve.
Andrew in Sweden
10 Jun 12 05:18
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10 Nov 07
| Topic/replies: 1,501 | Blogger: Andrew in Sweden's blog
i like henry as much as everyone else but he got frankels campaign wrong,
So one of the best trainers of all time is wrong ..... and you're correct. I didn't realise this forum had posters of such high esteem.
andrew, its just my opinion, henry is an all time great trainer, one of the best, esp of fillies, and frankel is one of the best milers ive ever seen but i dont think he got it right with frankel, yes hes unbeaten, hes been given poor rides and still won but i believe they have been too conservative with him. im not saying they should have run him in the derby, he prob wasnt ready, but its hard to argue that up until now the horse really hasnt been allowed show what he is truly capable of. there is no reason why he shouldnt have been stepped up after last years brilliant sussex performance and imo shouldve been stepped up before then. henry obv believes he will stay at least 10f now so i still dont get why he isnt running in the prince or wales.
im just keeping this debate alive, i stick to what ive said and by no means do i think I could train any racehorse better than henry or anyone else for that matter but its a forum and we should be allowed express or views openly. i dont understand why frankel is still running over a mile, no idea, i wish i did but i dont, whats the point, he'll beat whatever lines up against him and will start 2/7.
10 Jun 12 05:18
Joined:
10 Nov 07
| Topic/replies: 1,501 | Blogger: Andrew in Sweden's blog
i like henry as much as everyone else but he got frankels campaign wrong,
So one of the best trainers of all time is wrong ..... and you're correct. I didn't realise this forum had posters of such high esteem.
andrew, its just my opinion, henry is an all time great trainer, one of the best, esp of fillies, and frankel is one of the best milers ive ever seen but i dont think he got it right with frankel, yes hes unbeaten, hes been given poor rides and still won but i believe they have been too conservative with him. im not saying they should have run him in the derby, he prob wasnt ready, but its hard to argue that up until now the horse really hasnt been allowed show what he is truly capable of. there is no reason why he shouldnt have been stepped up after last years brilliant sussex performance and imo shouldve been stepped up before then. henry obv believes he will stay at least 10f now so i still dont get why he isnt running in the prince or wales.
im just keeping this debate alive, i stick to what ive said and by no means do i think I could train any racehorse better than henry or anyone else for that matter but its a forum and we should be allowed express or views openly. i dont understand why frankel is still running over a mile, no idea, i wish i did but i dont, whats the point, he'll beat whatever lines up against him and will start 2/7.
jonibake
10 Jun 12 09:25
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18 Nov 10
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The problem with your earlier rant ILWAB is that your one reasonable arguement loses all credibility because of all the moronic tripe you posted with it.
joni i dont know why YOU feel the need to abuse ME about what i post. i express my VALID view, but u dont seem to be able to see past frankel and will not accept ANY criticism of the horse or how hes been campaigned. and instead u come back from my well thought out posts with a post like this..
jonibake
09 Jun 12 21:36
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It can't be that clever a ploy of Henry's if you've worked it out ILWAB.
why are u bothering to post that? i hear the argument about how frankel is a champ at 3 and the likes of sea the stars was retired after his 3 yr old season. the reason he was retired is because he won everything, he did it all, frankel is still on level 1 when sts won all the races at multiple distances including the guineas and derby and then the arc.
do u honestly think we wouldve seen frankel had he won all the races sts won? get real.
10 Jun 12 09:25
Joined:
18 Nov 10
| Topic/replies: 323 | Blogger: jonibake's blog
The problem with your earlier rant ILWAB is that your one reasonable arguement loses all credibility because of all the moronic tripe you posted with it.
joni i dont know why YOU feel the need to abuse ME about what i post. i express my VALID view, but u dont seem to be able to see past frankel and will not accept ANY criticism of the horse or how hes been campaigned. and instead u come back from my well thought out posts with a post like this..
jonibake
09 Jun 12 21:36
Joined:
18 Nov 10
| Topic/replies: 323 | Blogger: jonibake's blog
It can't be that clever a ploy of Henry's if you've worked it out ILWAB.
why are u bothering to post that? i hear the argument about how frankel is a champ at 3 and the likes of sea the stars was retired after his 3 yr old season. the reason he was retired is because he won everything, he did it all, frankel is still on level 1 when sts won all the races at multiple distances including the guineas and derby and then the arc.
do u honestly think we wouldve seen frankel had he won all the races sts won? get real.
join versatility IS the main characteristic that defines a champion. thats why people dont talk about dayjur in the same breath as they do nijinsky or dancing brave.
going up in distance is the whole point once you have achieved all there is at a particular distance. frankel hasnt achieved half of what sts has. the susses, sjp, queen eliz all over a mile against the same horse, u must be feckin joking. by the time frankel beat up excelebration for the3rd or 4th time in the queen liz, sts had dominated EVERY horse over all distances. to absolutely incomparable achievements. rock of Gibraltar couldve done what frankel did last year, but there isnt a horse since dancing brave that couldve done what sts did, perhaps camelot who imo has already achieved more imo than frankel winning both the guineas and derby, thats an incredible achievement, not beating excelebration again again and again. immortal verse is an average miler, nothing special, and dream ahead is a sprinter, and of course i give frankel credit for beating nathaniel and TB but as i mentioned, lets see him beat them over THEIR TRIPS and not HIS for bloody once.
going up in distance is the whole point once you have achieved all there is at a particular distance. frankel hasnt achieved half of what sts has. the susses, sjp, queen eliz all over a mile against the same horse, u must be feckin joking. by the time frankel beat up excelebration for the3rd or 4th time in the queen liz, sts had dominated EVERY horse over all distances. to absolutely incomparable achievements. rock of Gibraltar couldve done what frankel did last year, but there isnt a horse since dancing brave that couldve done what sts did, perhaps camelot who imo has already achieved more imo than frankel winning both the guineas and derby, thats an incredible achievement, not beating excelebration again again and again. immortal verse is an average miler, nothing special, and dream ahead is a sprinter, and of course i give frankel credit for beating nathaniel and TB but as i mentioned, lets see him beat them over THEIR TRIPS and not HIS for bloody once.
I'm sorry ILWAB but I stand by what I say. Your post (not you) was moronic tripe for reasons I detailed. I am not going to get drawn into something with you because whatever i say will make little difference to you as whatever you say will certainly make no difference to me. I DONT think versatility is the main characteristic and I am quite prepared to accept criticism of the horse as I have twice posted that you have a perfectly valid point with his campaign. I agree with you on that. Please read that sentence this time.
Many people will always hold STS in higher regard and I understand that perfectly. Others like me will disagree.
What I would never do is put down that great horse (STS) and it annoys me when you do that to Frankel.
Good luck anyway.
Many people will always hold STS in higher regard and I understand that perfectly. Others like me will disagree.
What I would never do is put down that great horse (STS) and it annoys me when you do that to Frankel.
Good luck anyway.
The big problem with Frankel's campaign as I see it is that he could run in the Juddmonte and very little
could oppose him and the race could end up proving very little. Cecil could then aim the horse at the Champion stakes on say Good to soft ground with the likes of Cirus des and a top end Ballydoyle horse in the field and end up destroying them and finishing the race with plenty of energy. If this happened then
the horse may well have been up to winning the best races 1 1/2m races, yet they've left it too late to realise
this posiblity and wasted a lot of time by running Frankel against the same horses at a mile over and over
and over again. If this happened then Cecil would be guilty of not allowing Frankel to show his versatility and as such the races he's run in don't do full justice to the horse.
could oppose him and the race could end up proving very little. Cecil could then aim the horse at the Champion stakes on say Good to soft ground with the likes of Cirus des and a top end Ballydoyle horse in the field and end up destroying them and finishing the race with plenty of energy. If this happened then
the horse may well have been up to winning the best races 1 1/2m races, yet they've left it too late to realise
this posiblity and wasted a lot of time by running Frankel against the same horses at a mile over and over
and over again. If this happened then Cecil would be guilty of not allowing Frankel to show his versatility and as such the races he's run in don't do full justice to the horse.
I agree wholeheartedly Tinkler. I would have love to see him run in the Eclipse because if he were to win easily they could start thinking about races like the Arc. In an interview during the winter HRAC said Frankel would even get an entry in the King George as all options were open. They have certainly gone back on things they said over the winter. I just wonder if he has serious doubts about whether he actually will get a strongly run 10f.
This is a game of opinions and it is interesting to hear the likes of Kieron Fallon saying why bother stepping him up at all? He says why not just win a whole host of group 1's over a mile as he is so dominant. I am not saying I agree with that but everyone has their own views.
This is a game of opinions and it is interesting to hear the likes of Kieron Fallon saying why bother stepping him up at all? He says why not just win a whole host of group 1's over a mile as he is so dominant. I am not saying I agree with that but everyone has their own views.
He may well not stay a fast run 1 1/4m especially at Ascot with some give under foot and I suppose it's
possible Cecil could by-pass the Champion and take in the QE2.
If Frankel run's at York on fast ground with a small field he may not have his stamina put to the test
but if he lines up in the Champion he almost certainly will.
The Prix Jacque de Marois and Breeders Cup Mile would have been interesting races for Frankel to run
in if they do a u-turn and decide not to go beyond a mile.
possible Cecil could by-pass the Champion and take in the QE2.
If Frankel run's at York on fast ground with a small field he may not have his stamina put to the test
but if he lines up in the Champion he almost certainly will.
The Prix Jacque de Marois and Breeders Cup Mile would have been interesting races for Frankel to run
in if they do a u-turn and decide not to go beyond a mile.
Like a lot of people I think Frankel would run away with the POW winning by four or five lengths ,so why not run him .The answer probably lies in Cecil not wanting to play the Frankel stamina Card before Camelot enters the fray ....if Camelot enters the fray at York . To do so would be to expose to the Coolmore team the limits of Frankels staying ability , which would come under acute post race scrutiny by the opposition ....was he going away at the finish or was he being hauled in ...when did he make his move , what tactics could be engineered to bring about his downfall and so on and so forth .The initiative would one way or another be with the Camelot Team ...but what can coolmore
do without such information ? They have excelebration to test against their champion , the plot thickens in lieu of the mighty showdown
do without such information ? They have excelebration to test against their champion , the plot thickens in lieu of the mighty showdown
Certainly have no problem with the way Frankel has been campaigned to now, though he has proven all there is to prove at a mile now, his talents are there for all to see.
It is time to step him up and prove himself the champ at 10. What better way to start than at Royal Ascot in what should be a good field. Take the Wales, the Eclipse, the International, the Irish Champ and then step up and beat a triple crown winner in the Arc... that would stamp him as the greatest...
It is time to step him up and prove himself the champ at 10. What better way to start than at Royal Ascot in what should be a good field. Take the Wales, the Eclipse, the International, the Irish Champ and then step up and beat a triple crown winner in the Arc... that would stamp him as the greatest...
The PoW would be an ideal time to test Frankel's stamina - if he doesn't stay or struggles to get the trip then that still leaves a mile programme for the rest of the season.
Legendary status not yet certain
Taking on Frankel must be balanced against the danger of Camelot losing his record, says Ian McClean
Like a climber reaching base camp, it is time to momentarily pause and reflect before looking ahead to the final summit. The ripple of Camelot's achievement in winning the Epsom Derby reached as far as the following day's New York Times where it trumped even I'll Have Another's Triple Crown bid for precious column space in a broadsheet not renowned for its racing coverage.
The frailty of the thoroughbred and the transience of opportunity were sadly mirrored in that horse's 11th-hour withdrawal from the Belmont and the possibility of accomplishing a feat last achieved in the US by the mighty Affirmed in 1978. America will have to wait at least another year.
It only serves to bring into even sharper focus Camelot's future and what it might entail. One thing is for certain -- with a CV beginning to match his christening and reputation (now unbeaten in four races including three Group Ones, two of them Classics) Camelot is big box-office. Between Friday evening and last Wednesday (after the extended UK Diamond Jubilee bank holiday), fuelled by the whiff of a Triple Crown, tickets for the premier enclosure at Doncaster sold out online.
Two Camelot questions are being hotly debated: What has he accomplished so far and what should he do next? The hyperbole surrounding his Derby victory is not entirely reflected in the cold slide rule of the handicapper's rating -- falling short of Workforce, Authorized and even Aidan O'Brien's last winner, High Chaparral.
In victory last Saturday, Camelot defeated the smallest field since 1907. At least half the field will struggle to win a Group race of any kind and his main market rival, Bonfire, floundered on the tricky Epsom contours. In four races Camelot has defeated a total of 34 rivals. Between them all, his victims have won just four races -- two of those on the all-weather. It is easy, seductive almost (and compulsive when it comes to the media) to dilute perspective. After all, Marcel Duchamp walked into a plumbing suppliers in New York in 1917, bought a urinal, signed it and called it art.
That is not to say Camelot is not as 'magical' as connections have always claimed. Or that there isn't something sacred in the unblemished perfection of flawless accomplishment. Camelot has effectively reached base camp; to conquer Everest he needs to overcome his elders. When 'the boys at Coolmore' sit down at the table this week there are a number of options for Camelot. After all, he is currently favourite for the Irish Derby, King George, St Leger and the Arc -- and if they'd priced up Crufts or the 1,500m at the Olympics he'd be favourite for those as well. I'm certain the top two items on the agenda will read 'Triple Crown' and 'Frankel'.
It was interesting to hear John Magnier say after the Derby when asked about the pursuit of a Triple Crown: "We're all so old but if you'd asked me 30 years ago I'd have looked the other way". But a lot has changed and Coolmore (and those who make it up) is a different beast now. Historically, winning a St Leger has been inimical to the reputation of a young stallion.
However, Coolmore has migrated from a fledgling challenger brand back in the day to its position as world-leading brand today. Where it once followed, it now leads, and it could in that capacity single- handedly restore a creaky Leonard Cohen of a Leger back to cool high fashion.
Another cheery conundrum to spice up the Camelot round-table is the accompanying squad of Group One horses presently in the yard and how to deploy them. Magnier, as a postscript to the Derby, also referred to the fact that the Ballydoyle operation is presently going through "a good patch". Yes, and I also hear Michelangelo did a spot of painting and decorating.
Aidan O'Brien has already won seven Group Ones this year including all four UK Classics and one in Ireland. The world record number in a season is 25, held by Bobby Frankel. O'Brien's best total was 23 back in 2008. At this stage of that season he had won six. In the wings, the yard holds older horses of the calibre of So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey and Excelebration, all of whom operate in Camelot's range, not to mention Fame And Glory.
So while Camelot is the headline act, his chosen targets will be calculated as part of an overall grander scheme. The Triple Crown might represent the very pinnacle of a three year-old's achievement, but Camelot v Frankel would be the ultimate Everest for racing.
Taking on Frankel must be balanced against the danger of Camelot losing his record, says Ian McClean
Like a climber reaching base camp, it is time to momentarily pause and reflect before looking ahead to the final summit. The ripple of Camelot's achievement in winning the Epsom Derby reached as far as the following day's New York Times where it trumped even I'll Have Another's Triple Crown bid for precious column space in a broadsheet not renowned for its racing coverage.
The frailty of the thoroughbred and the transience of opportunity were sadly mirrored in that horse's 11th-hour withdrawal from the Belmont and the possibility of accomplishing a feat last achieved in the US by the mighty Affirmed in 1978. America will have to wait at least another year.
It only serves to bring into even sharper focus Camelot's future and what it might entail. One thing is for certain -- with a CV beginning to match his christening and reputation (now unbeaten in four races including three Group Ones, two of them Classics) Camelot is big box-office. Between Friday evening and last Wednesday (after the extended UK Diamond Jubilee bank holiday), fuelled by the whiff of a Triple Crown, tickets for the premier enclosure at Doncaster sold out online.
Two Camelot questions are being hotly debated: What has he accomplished so far and what should he do next? The hyperbole surrounding his Derby victory is not entirely reflected in the cold slide rule of the handicapper's rating -- falling short of Workforce, Authorized and even Aidan O'Brien's last winner, High Chaparral.
In victory last Saturday, Camelot defeated the smallest field since 1907. At least half the field will struggle to win a Group race of any kind and his main market rival, Bonfire, floundered on the tricky Epsom contours. In four races Camelot has defeated a total of 34 rivals. Between them all, his victims have won just four races -- two of those on the all-weather. It is easy, seductive almost (and compulsive when it comes to the media) to dilute perspective. After all, Marcel Duchamp walked into a plumbing suppliers in New York in 1917, bought a urinal, signed it and called it art.
That is not to say Camelot is not as 'magical' as connections have always claimed. Or that there isn't something sacred in the unblemished perfection of flawless accomplishment. Camelot has effectively reached base camp; to conquer Everest he needs to overcome his elders. When 'the boys at Coolmore' sit down at the table this week there are a number of options for Camelot. After all, he is currently favourite for the Irish Derby, King George, St Leger and the Arc -- and if they'd priced up Crufts or the 1,500m at the Olympics he'd be favourite for those as well. I'm certain the top two items on the agenda will read 'Triple Crown' and 'Frankel'.
It was interesting to hear John Magnier say after the Derby when asked about the pursuit of a Triple Crown: "We're all so old but if you'd asked me 30 years ago I'd have looked the other way". But a lot has changed and Coolmore (and those who make it up) is a different beast now. Historically, winning a St Leger has been inimical to the reputation of a young stallion.
However, Coolmore has migrated from a fledgling challenger brand back in the day to its position as world-leading brand today. Where it once followed, it now leads, and it could in that capacity single- handedly restore a creaky Leonard Cohen of a Leger back to cool high fashion.
Another cheery conundrum to spice up the Camelot round-table is the accompanying squad of Group One horses presently in the yard and how to deploy them. Magnier, as a postscript to the Derby, also referred to the fact that the Ballydoyle operation is presently going through "a good patch". Yes, and I also hear Michelangelo did a spot of painting and decorating.
Aidan O'Brien has already won seven Group Ones this year including all four UK Classics and one in Ireland. The world record number in a season is 25, held by Bobby Frankel. O'Brien's best total was 23 back in 2008. At this stage of that season he had won six. In the wings, the yard holds older horses of the calibre of So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey and Excelebration, all of whom operate in Camelot's range, not to mention Fame And Glory.
So while Camelot is the headline act, his chosen targets will be calculated as part of an overall grander scheme. The Triple Crown might represent the very pinnacle of a three year-old's achievement, but Camelot v Frankel would be the ultimate Everest for racing.
Its quality threads like this that make the forum such avid reading,I marvel at the depth of knowledge of the subject matter and the thought processes of some posters. This is really a non-thread as the "clash" will never happen sport doesnt really exist its cash and ego that dictates this "clash wont happen".
Frankel is a wonderhorse we all know it but its not likely to be proved as there is no 3yo champion at a mile and he is unlikely to tackle anything more challanging than a soft 10F to take on before returning to a mile. Camelot is no wonderhorse but a horse that will (hopefully win the triple crown via the Curragh and retire undefeated,Coolmore know what they have and more importantly what they DONT have,in a very average 3yo crop so the "clash will never happen" very sad from a sporting POV but thats the economics of the times we live in.
Frankel is a wonderhorse we all know it but its not likely to be proved as there is no 3yo champion at a mile and he is unlikely to tackle anything more challanging than a soft 10F to take on before returning to a mile. Camelot is no wonderhorse but a horse that will (hopefully win the triple crown via the Curragh and retire undefeated,Coolmore know what they have and more importantly what they DONT have,in a very average 3yo crop so the "clash will never happen" very sad from a sporting POV but thats the economics of the times we live in.
What was unlikely before, is unimaginable after todays performance. I can't see how another 2f will inconvenience Frankel to the extent that he runs 10lb below his best, which is what would be required for any horse currently in training to challenge him.
I am not sure Frankel achieved much more than he did before as Excelebration was possibly below his best. He beat the 4th placed horse (a 113 horse) by 25lbs easing up, so its probably another effort worth rating 140+. (ONLY 140+... AGAIN!!!)
If there was any prospect whatsoever of Camelot meeting Frankel, it just went down the pan. I remember Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef and saw Shergar live at Ascot. I have seen the video of the great Sea Bird.
I am certain Frankel is the best flat horse I have ever seen and possibly the best horse anyone alive today will ever see.
The frightening thing is that he may be quite a bit better than we have yet seen.
If there was any prospect whatsoever of Camelot meeting Frankel, it just went down the pan. I remember Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef and saw Shergar live at Ascot. I have seen the video of the great Sea Bird.
I am certain Frankel is the best flat horse I have ever seen and possibly the best horse anyone alive today will ever see.
The frightening thing is that he may be quite a bit better than we have yet seen.
Cryoftruth
I agree that Excelebration must have been a bit below his best but that was highly likely because he tried to keep pace with Frankel. On the clock the performance is every bit as impressive as the visual display, it looks huge, Frankel's fastest run yet and well above anything I've ever rated before.
I agree that Excelebration must have been a bit below his best but that was highly likely because he tried to keep pace with Frankel. On the clock the performance is every bit as impressive as the visual display, it looks huge, Frankel's fastest run yet and well above anything I've ever rated before.
I have to admit it was an astonishing performance and he simply did to Excelebration what he did to the Guineas field for daring to go with him - its that raw power that simply sets him apart.
That MUST prove though its time to step him up, and at least Cecil mentioned the Eclipse post-race
That MUST prove though its time to step him up, and at least Cecil mentioned the Eclipse post-race
He will be even better over 10f and there has been some nice talk today about him possibly racing as a 5 yo
the prince may even want this to happen
the prince may even want this to happen
I'm expecting So You Think to win the POW impressively tomorrow and iirc his last race in Europe is definitely going to be the Eclipse. I reckon Cecil will bypass the Eclipse (citing it's too close to Ascot perhaps) and wait for the only really top class older 10f horse to go back to Australia before he steps Frankel up (if he ever does).
The Juddmonte will then be the next possible race over 10f but again he could instead go for a cake walk in the Sussex. In the Juddmonte the only realistic half decent opposition would be St Nicholas Abbey (unless Carlton House proves much better than I think he will) though SNA seems better at 1m4f these days.
The race we all really want to see is Frankel against Camelot over 10f+ in the Juddmonte.
The Juddmonte will then be the next possible race over 10f but again he could instead go for a cake walk in the Sussex. In the Juddmonte the only realistic half decent opposition would be St Nicholas Abbey (unless Carlton House proves much better than I think he will) though SNA seems better at 1m4f these days.
The race we all really want to see is Frankel against Camelot over 10f+ in the Juddmonte.
uncle if he does go Sussex ( which unfortunately is still the most likely ), he will still go Juddmonte
^ But the best older 10f horse around is So You Think (as just proven at Ascot) and his last race here is going to be in the Eclipse before he goes off to Stud in Australia, so Frankel waiting for the Juddmonte means that unless Camelot runs he'll likely be a 1/10 shot at York which will tell us nothing new.
Taking on So You Think at Sandown would be a proper test and could enable Frankel to run up a monster mark - but equally the stiff course and a high class opponent may see him beaten (or maybe scrpae home) which will then dent his lofty reputation. If they swerve the Eclipse then that tells me that connections fear the latter scenario.
What would the betting be if they did meet at Sandwon - 4/11 Frankel, 5/2 So You Think?
) and his last race here is going to be in the Eclipse before he goes off to Stud in Australia, so Frankel waiting for the Juddmonte means that unless Camelot runs he'll likely be a 1/10 shot at York which will tell us nothing new.Taking on So You Think at Sandown would be a proper test and could enable Frankel to run up a monster mark - but equally the stiff course and a high class opponent may see him beaten (or maybe scrpae home) which will then dent his lofty reputation. If they swerve the Eclipse then that tells me that connections fear the latter scenario.
What would the betting be if they did meet at Sandwon - 4/11 Frankel, 5/2 So You Think?
uncle I agree, he should go eclipse but I think he'll wait for the Sussex and as you say step up to 10F at the Juddmonte.
However don't think he's scared of SYT - I think he'd murder him tbh.
The only thing that gives me hope is as I said above he at least mentioned the eclipse post race, and then that he may run up to 4 times more this season
However don't think he's scared of SYT - I think he'd murder him tbh.
The only thing that gives me hope is as I said above he at least mentioned the eclipse post race, and then that he may run up to 4 times more this season
i cannot see anyway that Coolmore will risk Camelot being beaten/thrashed by Frankel
Got a bad feeling its just going to be the Sussex and QEII this year then retirement.
Get the feeling Henry is more than content to keep pounding Excelebration and keep Frankel unbeaten.
Get the feeling Henry is more than content to keep pounding Excelebration and keep Frankel unbeaten.
He simply must go to the Eclipse.
I don't think there is any doubt that he would beat SYT but we want to see it. Nathaniel still holds the claim of having been closest to Frankel in a race and he will be there. Some substance to that race.
The Sussex, if Frankel runs, could quite literally be Frankel vs his older brother and whichever horse opts to turn up and take the place money... It could actually dent Frankel's reputation by giving substance to the 'beating up on nothing' theory...
I don't think there is any doubt that he would beat SYT but we want to see it. Nathaniel still holds the claim of having been closest to Frankel in a race and he will be there. Some substance to that race.
The Sussex, if Frankel runs, could quite literally be Frankel vs his older brother and whichever horse opts to turn up and take the place money... It could actually dent Frankel's reputation by giving substance to the 'beating up on nothing' theory...
Dear God but if he doesn't race against a serious horse soon it will be the biggest waste in Flat racing history
Agree Sussex likely to be a complete non-event. Must go to the Eclipse.
Cecil said on Friday: "He seems fine, he went out yesterday for a trot and a walk and we'll feel our way. I'd say at the moment it's more likely he'll go to Goodwood and to York."
........
So that's a line through the Eclipse. Anyone want to bet he doesnt show up at York either?
........
So that's a line through the Eclipse. Anyone want to bet he doesnt show up at York either?
ELG I share your frustration but I'm sure he will be at York
The most annoying thing is that now that he has flagged York he has given everyone else plenty of time to set their horses on different paths....
Irish Champion will be strong this year!
Irish Champion will be strong this year!
These are a poor bunch of 3 yo's that Camelot has dominated worse than Sea The Stars faced, of course Ballydoyle want their horse mentioning in the same breath as an all time great in Frankel for stud purposes to try and elevate Camelot above Sea The Stars.
The only reason they arent laughed out of town is because of Cecil's pitiful lack of ambition with Frankel who would be Champion from 1m to 1m4f if given the chance. His Royal Lodge performance showed he would have easily got 1m2f as a 2yo and I believe he could have won the Derby.
I can understand those who think not as it would take a freak to win like a sprinter one day then go away from them over a trip the next, however this horse is a freak but we arent being allowed to see his versatility through lack of ambition.
Lets see him over 1m2f used as a stepping stone to the Arc ... they will soon put him above Dancing Brave after that.
The only reason they arent laughed out of town is because of Cecil's pitiful lack of ambition with Frankel who would be Champion from 1m to 1m4f if given the chance. His Royal Lodge performance showed he would have easily got 1m2f as a 2yo and I believe he could have won the Derby.
I can understand those who think not as it would take a freak to win like a sprinter one day then go away from them over a trip the next, however this horse is a freak but we arent being allowed to see his versatility through lack of ambition.
Lets see him over 1m2f used as a stepping stone to the Arc ... they will soon put him above Dancing Brave after that.
As we know HRAC in the past has liked his colts to be specialists at one trip so dont hold your breath.
The difference here HRAC is you have a once in a lifetime horse and a once in a lifetime opportunity to show he is the best (which must include versatile at trip) flat horse ever.
also...I was fairly disappointed to hear Sir Henry say Frankel won't be going to the Breeders Cup either.
Suppose that's my fault for being disappointed. Just thought given the name they would've at least graced the Breeders Cup once his career. shame.
Suppose that's my fault for being disappointed. Just thought given the name they would've at least graced the Breeders Cup once his career. shame.
Dear God but if he doesn't race against a serious horse soon it will be the biggest waste in Flat racing history
Mr Mischief,
I totally agree.
Mr Mischief,
I totally agree.
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