Frankel - thread if you got it wrong early doors

clues up on him now

he hasnt won the guineas yet eric ..........i layed him for the guineas and im not sweating.....yet!

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2783 10 Sep 10 20:57   
Doubt he'll go Guineas. Waiting for the Derby paid off for connections with Workforce.

LOL, Hoisted by one's own petard

Not at all ... earliest thread on Frankel below chronologically ordered.

zilzal1 interestingly never puts up his opinion we all know what that means (clueless antepost but doesnt want to let that fact out).




eric_morris
When: 28 Aug 10 08:37

You forced me in on him was going to wait a little longer. Been thinking since his run he has Racing Post Trophy written all

over him and he has shown he acts well on the likely ground at Doncaster. All going to plan that will make him much shorter

than 25s HRAC likes the race for a Derby build up. Really strong pacey middle distance type and ideally suited to the race.

eric_morris
When: 03 Sep 10 18:05

Excellent, good prep for the Racing Post Trophy. Not sure he looks a Lingfield Derby Trial type hoping he will be Dante

bound after his 2yo campaign.


Dark Destroyer
When: 10 Sep 10 11:54

Does anyone know the number of Cecil runners in the 2,000 over the past 10 years or so? Maybe it is just Twice Over swerving

the race which is clouding my judgement but right now Frankel does not appeal to me for Newmarket on that basis alone.


sintonian
When: 10 Sep 10 17:00

sorry folkes but he was racing against a debutant. It was a non-event.


eric_morris
When: 10 Sep 10 18:10

He oozes class and is an excellent Derby prospect. HRAC should go Racing Post Trophy now as the horse acts on the likely

ground there and wont jar himself up. A gradual build up for the Derby now this could be the one to put HRAC back on the map

with colts. On at 25s but may go in again at 20s. Never felt this way about St Nick as a 2yo.


jamesp
When: 10 Sep 10 18:13

He looks much more like a Derby horse than a Guineas one, but his next race will tell us a lot more.  The dam Kind was quite

headstrong and only won over 5-7f but she is from a stamina-laden family: she's a half-sister to Powerscourt (top class

10-12f winner), Brimming (13-14f winner) and Westlake (12f winner).  Kind's dam Rainbow Lake (by Rainbow Quest) won the

Lancashire Oaks and was a half-sister to Vertex (12f winner) and to a winning hurdler.  Frankel is also a half-brother to

Bullet Train, winner of the Lingfield Derby Trial.  So he's bred to be a smart middle distance performer and I doubt whether

he will be aimed at the Guineas.  He showed a lot of speed today, though, so it will be fascinating to see how he gets on

next time in pattern company.  As far as the form is concerned, I think it's very unlikely that Diamond Geezah ran anywhere

near his official rating of 90, so the form is pretty meaningless.


Stake & Chips
When: 10 Sep 10 19:18

Cecil said: "It was a shame the other horse was withdrawn as we would have learnt more but he's definitely progressing.

"He's in the Racing Post Trophy and the Royal Lodge and we will just see how he is. It's unlikely we'll supplement him for

the Dewhurst."


eric_morris
When: 10 Sep 10 20:57

Doubt he'll go Guineas. Waiting for the Derby paid off for connections with Workforce.


sintonian
When: 11 Sep 10 19:34

Saamidd for the 2000 and Frankel for the Derby .. 140/1 double

joking aside .. prices are ridiculous ..

Horses going via Conditions races always leave doubts in my mind.


Graeme83
When: 16 Sep 10 16:31

Frankel is being cut to 8 as proof once again that this forum effects ante post prices. It happened with Kauto a few days

ago and it's happening again.


sintonian
When: 16 Sep 10 16:33

Graeme, you dont know why that is the reason for him being trimmed. 2+2 doesn't always equal 4.

ridiculous price btw.


Graeme83

When: 16 Sep 10 16:41

So none of you have backed him ?


eric_morris
When: 21 Sep 10 13:22

HRAC giving unusual vibes have taken him
Guineas now though still see him as predominently
Derby


eric_morris
When: 21 Sep 10 16:58

28 years here and rarely get this vibe from HRAC.
We all know backing a horse for Guinea and Derby leads to the poorhouse
long term and you are best making your choice which.
This is a rare occasion I will go for both Derby early, Guineas late. He has come on for his last run so
let's hope he is the real deal


sintonian
When: 21 Sep 10 17:06

I've not backed im no Graeme. On Saamidd for the Guineas. He has the best turn of foot i've seen from anything this season

imo and will blitz anything on Good to Firm.


johnnyrant
When: 21 Sep 10 23:21

Any high st firms offering price on Frankel doing Guineas/Derby double? Can't seem to find any quotes. You did well to snap

up those odds cryoftruth.


sintonian
When: 22 Sep 10 08:53

the double at 50/1 is a shocking price.


mythical prince
When: 22 Sep 10 14:50

looks quite generous to me

bank of frankel runs this sat, currently paying around 70 percent interest


sintonian
When: 22 Sep 10 16:45

you telling me he is actually less than 50/1 right now for the Guineas & Derby double ??

Oh

My

God


mythical prince
When: 22 Sep 10 17:07

sint, if he wins the guineas he'd be about 6-4 for the derby. and he's about 8-1 for the guineas. so 50-1 for the double

hardly looks daft


Dark Destroyer
When: 24 Sep 10 11:36

Since everybody else is expressing an opinion based on the totally inadeqaute evidence available here's mine 

This is an extremely important horse for trainer and connections. There is no way HC will rush his 3 year-old preparation

for the Guineas. Everything will be directed towards the Derby.


A_T
When: 25 Sep 10 14:44

Henry Cecil doesn't think he'll stay the Derby trip.


sintonian
When: 25 Sep 10 14:54

Plenty of dig in the ground today chaps.

No denying he is horse of immense talent.. but one mile at newmarket on Good to Firm is a different ball game.



eric_morris
When: 25 Sep 10 14:54

I told you St Nick was no Sea The Stars to be fair but if you can find any department STS impressed more let me know.



Graeme83
When: 25 Sep 10 14:56

Eric it's far too early mate. As you know there what happens at 2 then the real stuff gets going at 3. Comparisons to a

horse who had a clean sweep is extremely premature.



Dark Destroyer
When: 25 Sep 10 17:09

Cheers both.

I'm just kicking myself. I looked long and hard at the same price for the guineas and eventually convinced myself it wasnt a

realistic target. Really really stupid.


A_T
When: 25 Sep 10 18:10

Yes in that respect he reminds me of Zafonic - great bull of a horse physically superior to his peers. Like that colt he may

still be superior come next May but there must be a question of what will happen when the others start to catch up.


jair1970
When: 25 Sep 10 18:45

"I don't believe in ante-post - a lot can happen between now and then," the trainer said when asked for his reaction to the

bookmakers' short Classic quotes. "I'd question whether he'll get the Derby trip, I really would.

"He's out of a mare [Kind] who's very, very fast and the female is the dominant sex. He's got a lot of class and could

easily be a Guineas horse. His three-parts brother Bullet Train is more a mile-and-a-quarter horse, so you would question it

[the Derby distance of 1m4f]."

Rip up those ante post vouchers?
French Derby anyone?

;)


jair1970
When: 25 Sep 10 18:46

Epsom vouchers that is...



eric_morris
When: 25 Sep 10 23:34

I said around a week ago I went in Guineas also you thicko.  Got great positions Guineas and Derby am pretty sure they will

go Derby to join the all-time greats after the Guineas. This could easily be the owners best horse since Dancing Brave and

he's had some gooduns.


He has to be pulled up after a mile on soft ground ffs and yet he prefers good ground which would see him get a lot further

especially the way he cruises. He could have sat with that lot today going easy in behind as far as you like.



ilikewavingatbuses
When: 28 Sep 10 10:51

personally i think frankel, although apparently v talented is just another overhyped horse like st nick was last season!i

mean he won the rp thophy as easy as you like on the bridle as he hit the front!!

frankel looks a speed horse to me and a horse that loves cut!!im just going by my eyes of course and i may be proved wrong

in time and thats fine but i think you all should be careful before getting sucked in to this as i see the same comments

every year someone puts up  a good performance!!

nathaniel hasnt even won a race yet and he got to within half a length of him on 1st run!i think hes just beat average

horses very well so far but he will face stiffer tests soon!!he hasnt even run in a truly run race yet on good ground!you'd

go broke backing these horses for guineas and derbys!

wait until he faces a horse that isnt listed class on good ground in a truly run race and they youll find out how good he

is!!

Can see why you want to start a fresh thread on Frankel lads this was pretty p1ss poor from you all early doors.

eric_morris
Date Joined: 27 Jun 10
Add contact | Send message When: 11 Sep 10 15:10 Joined: Date Joined: 27 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 2,791 | Blogger: eric_morris's blog
To be fair the 2 races cannot be related at all on different days other than based on your wrist-watch over a distance of your choosing. Think HRAC will do what is best for the horses future whatever happens you can be sure of that. Saamidd will win the Dewhurst based on that performance I will be having a good bet on him unless Strong Suit runs also.

eric_morris
Date Joined: 27 Jun 10 Add contact | Send message
When: 16 Sep 10 22:37 Joined: Date Joined: 27 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 2,792 | Blogger: eric_morris's blog
I havent backed him Guineas as I think there will be good competition with much better form on display at the moment with the Godolphin horse beating other Group horses in a canter. Strong Suit has shown better speed than anything for me this season before his below par run last time out. Hannon has said he thinks he undercooked him for that and that he is back to the form before the Coventry. Like Canford in the Morny think we can forgive him one run where he was not ridden to his strengths. Already the Guineas is looking a hot race with lots of v good Group form on show. Frankels form doesnt compare at these trips. He impressed against Nathaniel but his speed was staged and he wound up the gears gradually. It wasnt the electric burst of a Guineas winner for me.

The gradual gears though are what I look for in a middle distance horse. Travel then wind it up and kick which says Derby to me.

Doh.

Perhaps you should think about it before you go copying and pasting everyone elses comments , hey Eric ?

Blocked, I can't read your usual learner plate stuff no time to waste.

eric_morris
18 Apr 11 10:28
Blocked, I can't read your usual learner plate stuff no time to waste.

I'd bet every penny I have that Eric has not really blocked anyone - DOUBLE NAP

Of course we are not bl0cked.

Did his nuts on Saamindd in the Dewhurst too when the ground was not in his favour. Doh.

"early doors" Frankel is only a Derby horse no way will he go for the Guineas - kirk's money is elsewhere

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2783 10 Sep 10 20:57   
Doubt he'll go Guineas. Waiting for the Derby paid off for connections with Workforce.

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2788 11 Sep 10 14:29   
Saamidd beating Group horses in a canter there now a big challenger for the Guineas with fellow Groupees Strong Suit. Zoffany and Pathfork to come lots of Guineas pointers today. 8s Saamidd now the Guineas and bound for the Dewhurst.

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2788 11 Sep 10 15:04   
Racing Post Trophy is perfect for Frankel as a winner of the proven Derby prep to end the season unbeaten. Saamidd will be extremely difficult to beat in the Dewhurst they should only go there if they are sure they want to go the Guineas route. He reminds me of Motivator and should be given a similar campaign imo. Will get the mile and a half but will also be a force over 1m 2f after the Derby.

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2788 11 Sep 10 20:51   
I would run him in the RPT hoping to get a bit more company for longer in the race due to the better oppo. It will help him gain experience, develop more physically and allow the jockey to learn more about him in a race. Then the Dante it couldn't be simpler with a horse like him who can cruise then kick.

throws in a bit of aftertiming to reminds us what a shrewdy he is

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2788 12 Sep 10 09:26   
Just as well I didnt mention the 5k I won on Nadal at Wimbers you would have been psychotic .. oops.

Kirk's money is elsewhere for the Guineas

eric_morris 16 Sep 10 22:37   
I havent backed him Guineas as I think there will be good competition with much better form on display at the moment with the Godolphin horse beating other Group horses in a canter. Strong Suit has shown better speed than anything for me this season before his below par run last time out. Hannon has said he thinks he undercooked him for that and that he is back to the form before the Coventry. Like Canford in the Morny think we can forgive him one run where he was not ridden to his strengths. Already the Guineas is looking a hot race with lots of v good Group form on show. Frankels form doesnt compare at these trips. He impressed against Nathaniel but his speed was staged and he wound up the gears gradually. It wasnt the electric burst of a Guineas winner for me.

The gradual gears though are what I look for in a middle distance horse. Travel then wind it up and kick which says Derby to me.

sh1ts his pants when he starts to think he may have got it wrong

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2788 16 Sep 10 22:42   
Not sure if everyone remembers Grimthorpe misleading everyone last season with Workforce. Apparently was on target for the Guineas didnt look a Derby horse then the about turn came. Does the guy like a bet or what? Not sure where the money for the Guineas came from today considering he announced the Royal Lodge then perhaps Racing Post Trophy was preferred by HRAC which screams Derby prep? Nobody goes that route for the Guineas history shows it is the worst route possible so where was the money from a tipping line or is this guy putting people away again?

Finally changes his tune once he realises the Guineas is the target

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2788 21 Sep 10 16:58   
28 years here and rarely get this vibe from HRAC.
We all know backing a horse for Guinea and Derby leads to the poorhouse
long term and you are best making your choice which.
This is a rare occasion I will go for both Derby early, Guineas late. He has come on for his last run so
let's hope he is the real deal

Lol LOl Lol.

Devastating piece of analysis there A_T.

Now we look forwards to seeing Eric worm his way out of IT with a 50/1 acca of somekind.

Absolutley ROFL.

eric_clueless

Post of the year A_T

eric
Frankel - thread if you got it wrong early doors

I think its quite admirable that eric starts a thread highlighting that he did.


Subtley puts the word potential tho .


Even stevie wonder could see after his debut it was a race full of potential a lot harder to see he would be a red hot guineas hope.

Dont beat yourself up over getting it wrong now & again  we all do.
its being able to realise it & learn form it
Which is very difficult to do if your so arrogant & cant accept a wrong call.

This is a rare occasion I will go for both Derby early, Guineas late

Good bit of 4/9 about if required and covered on Strong Suit too (34/1)

Plenty of mugs got Frankel wrong either beat nothing, over-hyped or tooearly to say (on an antepost forum yes he did say that Graeme83 .. comedy classic).

Most of them have started and post on a thread titled 'The Derby'. I can confirm they have not got anything wrong ... in the title.

Strong Suit has shown better speed than anything for me this season

Yes you were so right.

Yes I was last season. You have an out of date calendar lad. Horses dont always train on buy the beginners guide to antepost and have a read.

You were wrong about Dubai Prince training on also.

A horse getting injured does not mean it hasn't trained on.....lad

roobuck, check out his post about going in big on Saamidd in the Dewhurst.

Makes you wonder why he goes to all this effort of bringing up everyone elses old posts.

Not too concerned about 'laughing' at a horse I backed that is out are you .. t1t?

sint,

it does appear that happy to laugh at others when get a bet wrong, but his mistakes are all part of the big picture

You are a charleton 'lad' happy to laugh at others bets that are down (I will win anyway but that is beyond the point)

yep indeed.

In truth he probably doesn't win long term. People who do tend not to bang on about it, or aftertime. Imo.

Caant read that master gangmaster sintonian you are as sh1t as your football team currently but at least they have won things in the past

Eric claims that he went in betting shops around 25 years ago, if so its a bit worrying that a 40yo plus adult would react this way

Someone phone social services please..........

zzzzz boring now imo, 'sint wins nothing' and eric is afraind of a 1 on 1.


boring.

Desmond Orchard Joined: 28 Jun 04
Replies: 1427 30 Mar 11 18:02
Eric Morris on Horse Racing Ante-post/Cheltenham etc Fora, is the current incarnation of perhaps the most preposterous poster anywhere. He too is given to heroic last minute trades, directly at odds with previously strongly argued positions in order to get out in profit (often 6 figures!), despite never posting an actual bet before an event. He is utterly incapable of getting anything wrong and has, to my knowledge, never had a losing bet. Anyone who disagrees with him is a 'stalker', to whom he will attribute imaginary statements, obviously without any evidence to back them up, which he then attempts to discredit. He labours under the misapprehension that he has then 'proved you wrong' - a peculiar obsession of his that gives an indication of his overall insecurity. On the rare ocassions that he does tip up a winner (without actually admitting to having placed any actual money on the beast), he then crows from the rooftops that he is some kind of guru and all should worship at his alter, clearly oblivious to the fact that even a blind dog will pi55 up the odd lampost.
He is great fun though and we would miss him over there if his Mum ever banned him for any length of time. That said, there is no shortage of contenders for Forum Idiot waiting in the wings Cry

Oh

My

God

Stalkers dont like it up 'em when the boot is on the other foot. (NAP)

Speaking as somebody who backed Frankel for the Derby after his Doncaster win, I believe I got it wrong early doors, I now think he'll be vulnerable in any Classic.

Why so Figgis?

I'd say it's unlikely he'll run in any but the Guineas..

I just think there's a big chance he won't be any better than last season, which will make him vulnerable to a high class 3yo in the Guineas. I think he will either run to previous form and just get beat, or may even disappoint completely. If he gets beat narrowly connections might be more tempted to go the Derby route, thinking he might need further. Either way I don't hold out much hope for my Derby bet, I think we may have already seen the best of Frankel.

think you are being overly negative there figgis. for a start there doesn't look like being a top class 3 year old rival to frankel in the guineas.

Pathfork easily has the potential to make a top class 3yo, MP. I also think Fury looks the type who could make big progress. I admit I'm struggling to find any other possible dangers, so if those two don't live up to my hopes then the race is at Frankel's mercy. Even if he does win by default I think he will find it difficult to maintain his superiority as the season unfolds (personally I've never doubted his stamina, even for the Derby). Of course I'm prepared to be proved wrong and he might turn out to be one of the best horses I've ever seen, if that turns out to be the case I will have no hesistation acknowledging him as such. I don't see much mileage financially though in raving about 4/6 chances that, for me, still have it to prove.

^ little harsh on pathfork, ROC, Native khan, casamento, these are all at the top of the betting and frankel has only ever faced one of them (at 2)... frankel looks brilliant but its a little unfair to say theres nothing to rival him when he hasnt even faced the horses that are at the head of the guineas market.

he beat a 25/1 shot last time. if hannons hadnt been in there he'd have been a 1/20 shot which essentially he was,he'd want to win the way he did against those horses imo.

hes billiant but its ridiculous writing off the other before theyve even run a) as 3 yr olds and b) against the long odds on shot that has only proved hes still alive in his latest appearence.

that was for MP sorry figgis.

I'd agree that for all Frankel is very good, he's unlikely to get much better and his physical advantage from last season may well have receded.

Very good may well be good enough for a Guineas but those who doubt the class of the final line up would do well to remember that year in year out a handful of top class animals come out of the race.  No reason to suspect that this year will be any different.

given he already looks live a four or five year old, i'd be unconcerned about him losing any perceived advantage in psychique. maybe in five years time that might not be the case

maybe i'll have even learnt to spell physique [smiley:crazy]

he might not have to improve of course but  id imagine theres a good few that have improved  more over the winter than him, its just a question if thats enough.

a good few? doubt it. one or two at most. take out frankel and it would look like a fairly awful guineas. I doubt many would disagree with that. I never jumped on the st nicholas abbey bandwagon, who was also pretty short for the guineas. frankel just looks like a different specimen to him. he looks like a monster and the evidence on the racetrack suggests that hes not far off that.

anyway we'll see on guineas day but I for one will be very surprised if he gets turned over.

mythical, he's not wrong.  Not suggesting Frankel isn't as good as he might be just that others had more room for improvement.  Arguably the entire field have just that.

Really? maybe later in the year but in the guineas? I doubt that. Didn't I read somewhere (actually it was mordin who pointed it out) that those listed as "nice types" in the raceform annual have a hugely positive record in the guineas as they simply have a physical advantage over their contemporaries in the first classic which admittedly may vanish as the season proceeds. i'm sure if raceform were still doing it frankel would have got that description.

Anyway I get tired of these admittedly interesting debates. better to lump my entire bank on frankel before too much debate changes my mind [smiley:crazy]

Frankel is much better than any 3 yo colt out there at any trip up to a mile and a half. Horses can have off days that's what it will take for him to lose in the Guineas or Derby. It could be a 3 yo filly will turn out next best at a mile as Frankel steps up in trip.

eric is getting cold  feet.
you backed misty for me, yet?

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2963 20 Apr 11 20:23
As you rightly point out I won a lot on Nadal last year .. and will this also. My mathematical methods in tennis would make your a-b=c arbing equation look like a nursery school mug.


eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2562 23 Jul 10 11:54
Think ben10 might have been the only contributor on the thread that caused kirk's demise. Kirk should have kissed ass kept stum like Post reporters on issues and he would keep everyone happy.

He did go strongly against St Nick on a stupidly long thread on here and was strong on Steinbeck in singles and doubles then Canford Cliffs in a big treble with Big Bucks 3s, Kauto 7/4. Steinbeck won't be any good over trips further than a mile IMO though I believe he had/has potential turns out his injuries may have affected his career and in that respect prima Donna was right.

As for Kirk wouldn't be surprised if he is on here claiming he won k's on Nadal at Wimbledon or something else made up.







ok ok ok ok ok ok ok, so let me get this straight, eric wouldnt be surprised if eric(kirk) claimed he won thousands on nadal 'or something else made up?'

good grief. would u care to explain this post eric ta

eric how do you know frankel is much better than any 3 yo colt up to a distance of a mile and half ......