Exactly ben10 ... Steinbeck may be the key to whether they bother running SNA or give him a perfect Derby prep.

What makes you think that SNA might not train on, Ben?

Flamenco Wave (SNA's grand-dam) appeared not to train on from two to three, I agree. But she produced several top-class horses that trained on well. You mention Aristotle, but he seemed to train on OK: his Racing Post Trophy winning rating (RPR 116) was reproduced on his seasonal debut at three when he finished first in the G2 Prix Greffulhe at Longchamp (RPR 116). He was very disappointing in the Derby on much quicker ground, where something must have been amiss - he had hung badly at Longchamp previously, so maybe there was some underlying physical problem - but he won his comeback race at four in Singapore the following year. Cascata perhaps hasn't fulfilled her potential, but she hasn't failed to train on. She won a modest maiden at Great Leighs at two (RPR 71) and improved on that performance in four starts last year: she wasn't beaten far on seasonal debut (despite taking a keen hold), then didn't act too well on the really fast ground at Salisbury next time (her first try on turf), and then ran very well at Ripon on slightly better ground, beaten a neck (RPR 88, the front two well clear of the rest). I'll agree with you about Flamenco Wave, but not Aristotle or Cascata.

i think youre barking up the wrong tree ben in thinking sna wont train on.

i know grand dams and grand sires are very important but surely .

the sire is more important and when do you ever see montjeus not

training on especially obriens.

Kirk and Ben 10, Aiden said that Steinbeck had only been back in training for 6 weeks prior to the Dewhurst, so why not take him to the Breeders Cup with Beethoven? After all the horse is fresh, didn't have a hard time at Newmarket and should have come on for the run. Or is it more a case of it being too much of a risk for a fragile horse, it would be harder to explain away another defeat, and atm Steinbeck is a nice talking horse for his sire. Being beaten at BC may take the gloss off him and leave him a little exposed. What are they going to do this year? If they go for a prep run the may not have him sound for the GNS but if they go straight to newmarket they always have the excuse of him'needing the run' or 'lacking a bit of racing experience'

No need, he's had his sighter of the course, put him away and next season they can look forward to a top class campaign over a mile this year. I don't think anyone on here would have thought Steinbeck would be heading off to America and sounds like you're clutching at straws big time here. He'll go straight there and all Coolmore horses improve over the season but he'll be ready enough to win. The Breeders Cup juvenile is one of the worst races for a 2 year old that you want a top class 3 year old. I can even go back as far as Arazi for that!

To say it was a weak Dewhurst because the winner was beaten NTO, did you see the Breeders Cup race ? Beethoven was knocked out of contension right at the first bend , he did well to finish as close as he did.
SNA may well turn out to be a world beater,he was very impressive in his last 2 races, but the form of the RPT is ( imo ) not on par with the Dewhurst. RPT the 2nd had fair form winning the Acomb, the 3rd had won a Conditions race at Doncaster and the 4th had won a Maiden race at Newbury.

So now it is a good idea to go to the Breeders Cup with a horse you are preparing for an English Classic? Beethoven went there imo as they think there are at least 2 or 3 better than him for Newmarket.

He ran a great race and would have won but for his terrible luck in the race ... anyone with a horse for the Classics in the Dewhurst was smiling after that including me as he ranked extremely well against speed horses both sides of the Atlantic... AND APOB has better :)

Also you say you have inside info on Steinbeck being fragile then suggest taking him to the States ... you couldnt make it up .... or could you :D

PDonna , the 2009 may not be any better than the 2008 version, but it still produced the Sussex Stakes winner + QEII, the Guineas 2nd, the Goodwood Lennox Stakes , the Celebration Mile winner the St James Palace 2nd. A French Grp 1 winner, not that bad a race after all. But fair enough, it will be interesting to see what happens come the Flat season.

Yes me too, good luck with your bets.
p.s it is not always the fancied Ballydoyle horse that wins, the stable 2nd choice have a fair record at good prices . BBI 16-1 Dante, and the Royal Lodge winner at 12-1.

Nobody is disputing SNA is a class horse however at the price with his chances of a run you can have your smile I will be looking for value elsewhere. He is covered in my book in case. Great to look forward to whatever happens.

A Group 1 over what distance? St Leger distance, 1m, 1m4f, 1m2f ... very much doubt at a mile unless an extremely weak one and that is the Guineas trip.

A strong run mile on G-F may well suit E.Pimp in the Guineas, just dont ride him like Ravens Pass was riden in the Guineas. i.e out the back with way too much ground to make up.

Was much closer to the pace in the RPT , depends how much he improves from 2-3 years, he had a big frame as a 2yo, should make a good 3yo.

EP is my main flat antepost horse - backed for Guineas and Derby, even though his pedigree and run style suggest 10f will be bets.

There is no earthly reason to think he can bridge the gap with SNA over any trip, but as I stated in my earlier post I feel Elusive Pimpernel or Al Zir would have gone off warm favourite and probably won the Dewhurst had they gone for it instead of the RPT.

The filly of his trained by B.Hills was also 4th in the Grp 1 Fillies Mile and won a Grp 3. Lets see how they progress with time .

APOB thinks it was a good Dewhurst and he had 3 of the first 4 ;)

O'BRIEN BACKS DEWHURST FORM

Aidan O'Brien feels the form of the Dewhurst Stakes has been "underrated".

The trainer saddled the first two home as 33-1 chance Beethoven led home 20-1 shot Fencing Master, with better-fancied Ballydoyle runner Steinbeck a close-up fourth on his first run since May and just his second in total.

Plenty of critics were keen to crab the form, but O'Brien was adamant at the time it was a good race, and is sticking with that viewpoint, not least after the efforts of Beethoven in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile, where he was almost brought down before finishing to great effect.

O'Brien told At The Races: "We felt it was a very good Dewhurst, a strong and evenly-run race. They all got a clear run if they were good enough.

"We think the first two are very underrated and it was the first time Beethoven got a real strong run race.

"The second we were very happy with and it was the first run back in a long time for Steinbeck. Johnny (Murtagh) dropped him out and he got into a good rhythm. He was cruising in the last half-furlong but maybe could have done with a lead, and Colm (O'Donoghue on Fencing Master) and Ryan (Moore on Beethoven) just challenged a bit wider.

Prima Donna 25 Jan 20:22
Kirk,Im sure he does!But Steinbeck IS fragile and FYI I know someone at Ballydoyle I DO know what that colt is like,some on here take all the spoon fed rubbish about the Monster,I DONT think he will win the GNS I think he may not even run!I bet S.Heffernan will ride him..............if he stays sound enough to run that is .

Ah the Montjeu was a NH sire in waiting man. PD What makes you think Heffernan is going to get the ride, inside info??? His past record in the Newmarket Guineas wouldnt really give you faith would it, how may times has he got the leg up on a live chance for the race nevermind a pacesetter its an easy answer ;)

IMO I wouldnt be having a bet on any of the stable runners just yet. Defintely cant see SNA running in it either. Twist my arm I think Cape Blanco at 20's in places could be of interest!

I reckon that Elusive Pimpernel would just about have won the Dewhurst if he had taken part. In the Acomb Stakes he did get a bit outpaced (partly, I suspect, through greenness, as it was only his second ever race), but the really fast pace at York played right into his hands and he finished really strongly to get up and win. The even faster pace in the Dewhurst would have suited him down to the ground. There's a lot of nonsense spoken about the effect of a fast pace, and horses not being able to keep up with the pace. If you've got a horse like SNA or Elusive Pimpernel or Al Zir you can get away with a moderate pace in a race like the Racing Post Trophy because those horses have enough basic speed and acceleration (more than enough, in the case of SNA) to be able to quicken off that kind of pace, and the real staying types will be inconvenienced by a moderate pace because they don't do anything quickly and tend to lengthen rather than quicken. In a race like the Guineas, a really fast even pace throughout will favour horses like SNA and Elusive Pimpernel who get every yard of the trip and have the ability to quicken off a fast pace, whereas a fast even pace will be a disadvantage to horses with suspect stamina such as Canford Cliffs. As we have seen many times before, it's no disadvantage to be held up, a few lengths off the pace, in the Guineas, so long as there are no serious traffic problems (though, in point of fact, traffic problems are more likely if they don't go fast enough in the early stages). Conversely, if they only go a moderate pace through the early stages, the likes of Elusive Pimpernel will be disadvantaged and the speedier types will be able to get home.

Take another look at the Acomb Stakes form. 5th Vale Of York (beaten 4½ lengths) went on to win a Listed race at Goodwood, was then a good third in the Royal Lodge (beaten 1½ lengths), a close second to Hearts Of Fire in a Group 1 (RPR 116), and finally was a surprise winner of the Breeders Cup Juvenile (RPR 116). Acomb 4th Party Doctor (beaten 2 lengths) did not race again but had previously been beaten a nose by the useful Nideeb (the pair 9 lengths clear) in a Listed race at Ascot and had a progressive profile. Acomb 3rd Poet's Voice had won a novice race by 10 lengths and went on to land the Champagne Stakes (RPR 113) and finished 4th in a competitive renewal of the Middle Park, beaten a couple of lengths (RPR 112). Acomb 2nd Emerald Commander had won his maiden at Newbury impressively and went on to land a Listed race at Haydock comfortably (RPR 109) before finishing runner-up to Jan Vermeer on heavy ground in the Criterium International (RPR 110). In my opinion, the fast pace in the Dewhurst would have suited Elusive Pimpernel perfectly, and with normal improvement of 5-7lbs in the two months between the Acomb and Dewhurst, could have been expected to have finished right up there with Beethoven and Fencing Master.

The official ratings merely confirm what we all knew already, which is that on all known form St Nicholas Abbey's win at Doncaster represents the best juvenile performance of last season and was several pounds ahead of anything else. Elusive Pimpernel's performance at Doncaster was just a couple of pounds (less than a length) behind the Dewhurst winner Beethoven. In my opinion, the faster pace of the Dewhurst would have suited Elusive Pimpernel better than the moderate pace of the RPT, so it is quite possible that he would have found the necessary extra couple of pounds improvement. The Dewhurst principals (Beethoven, Fencing Master, Xtension, Steinbeck), the Middle Park winner Awzaan, the Prix Morny winner Arcano and third Canford Cliffs, and the RPT runner-up Elusive Pimpernel, are all more or less on a par (all can be rated around 115-117). St Nicholas Abbey is significantly better (so far) than all of these. Based on what I saw at Doncaster, I believe that SNA has the class, the basic speed and the devastating acceleration needed to win the Guineas. Anyone who argues that SNA simply beat slow staying types at Doncaster is barking up the wrong tree.

I stand by my earlier assertion, which is based on a cold analysis of the form. The official ratings suggest that Elusive Pimpernel would have got to within a length of Beethoven in the Dewhurst. There is no doubt that EP would have been ideally suited by the fast pace in the Dewhurst.