Classics 2016
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Frankel - horse of a generation?
Frankel - horse of a generation?
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Replies: 90
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with regards to the STS debate @ a mile Frankel would have mullered him.
@ a mile 2 would be a hard call @ a mile 4 would obviously give STS the nod . In terms of milers Frankel ranks up there with Brigadier Gerrard & El Gran Senor imo. 1/3 in the Queen Anne is as free as money gets Will be more like 2/9 |
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i dont think frankel has done anything to prove he would have beat sts over a mile. his time was considerably slower than sts in the guineas and his stride was shortening rapidly in the last furlong. it was beautiful to watch the manner of his victory but so far the horses in behind havent achieved much, with the exception of possibly the worst irish guineas in living memory! then well beat in the french derby, casamento, roderic etc. brutal form so far!
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As regards Frankel,the flaw is that he does what he wants, and not what the jockey wants.What happens if he goes off on his own on softer ground with a stiff finish?,he runs the risk of being a sitting duck.Value-wise it will be bad value,there again theres no viable challenge from any 3-y-old at least.
As for STS,99 per cent of horses that pull that hard in the Arc early always flatten out in the straight,i thought he was in trouble,the victory was AWESOME!!!!. Pity Peintre Celebre was injured and retired,he literally took off late on in the Arc,hecould have proved to have been something exceptional. |
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Brilliant though Frankel appears to be, I have a sneaking feeling that STS would beat him a cosy length or so over whichever distance they raced, just as he did with all the others. The horse was the ultimate professional only ever doing what he was asked and with Micky-Jo never asking more than was necessary, it is impossible to say what would've happened whichever horse he was asked to face. I've seen some good uns in 25 years + of watching this game. But that fella, with Kinane up, was the best, unquestionably.
That said, i'm looking forward to seeing what Frankel can do over the rest of the season and am particularly interested in seeing how he fares up in trip later on. I suspect he will prove himself the best at a mile, should he meet Canford Cliffs and Goldikova, but at 10f, he could be vulnerable. |
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Ilwab I dont compile speed figs but just a quick look @ the times on the respective days im certain Frankel would have recorded a better spped fig than STS in the GNS.
Just a bare comparison of times of 2 races from differing yrs is futile as obviously ground & especially wind direction which was a headwind this yr have a great bearing on overall times. Every race in 2011 GNS day took @ least 2 seconds(and more including 5 f sprint) longer than in 2009 except for Frankel. |
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its a shame in way that the recession didn't come even earlier than it did, perhaps then the current trend about
keeping olders horses in training due to lower stud fees would have applied to sea the stars. (probably not though) I think he would have been a superb older horse over 1 mile 2 and 1 mile four and would have kicked horse's like so you think, workforce and st nicholas abbey into touch. the fact that we are even debating the idea that he could have given frankel a race over 1 mile is a credit to his versatility. Would we even have the same debate with a horse like generous or daylami? bring sts out of retirement, run them both in a match race over 1 mile 2 at newmarket or ascot. we'd all pay a lot to see that. |
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Why cant we just enjoy Frankel and not have these moronic free money tosssers on about it all the time
If 3's on shots are your thing then enjoy, but FREE money does not exist you mugs. I would love to see this wonderfull animal win but a part of me wants to larf so loud at "FREE money" idiots |
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yeah but it'll win on tuesday, 1.3 is actually a pretty good price, stick a grand on and make an easy 300
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There is no free money , but 1.35 is a good price as he would be giving those horses well over a stone in a handicap
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I can't wait until Frankel comes across something half way decent
This horse, although a classic winner in a fairly poor Guineas does not deserve to be in the same book, let alone chapter, let alone paragraph, let alone sentence as a true horse of a Generation namely Sea the Stars, Dancing Brave, Brigadier Gerard etc. Wait until it beats something then say it is a decent 2011, 3year old miler |
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Think after royal ascot the next race for Frankel will be the juddmonte , think theres a fair chance he will be taking on Carlton House, Horse of a generation ? could be , just hope Frankel is given the chance to prove it i.e diffrent distances and running against his elders.
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Sterling,grand prix boss could be pretty decent,beat next time out gp1 winner in japan and connections hopeful having come all this way not for a holiday.
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Sterling Morrison
09 Jun 11 09:39 Joined: 24 Jun 03 | Topic/replies: 2,122 | Blogger: Sterling Morrison's blog I can't wait until Frankel comes across something half way decent This horse, although a classic winner in a fairly poor Guineas does not deserve to be in the same book, let alone chapter, let alone paragraph, let alone sentence as a true horse of a Generation namely Sea the Stars, Dancing Brave, Brigadier Gerard etc. Wait until it beats something then say it is a decent 2011, 3year old miler sorry, but I can't agree with this.. what did sea the stars beat before they were hailing him as a super horse.. rip van winkle? fame and glory? frankel is already a super horse based on his performances on the track.. he thrashed the runner up in the derby at ascot last year, treasure beach. on that form line that makes him 10 lengths better than pour moi. |
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Quealy the chink in the armour, Fantastic bit of front running on Timepiece..not..went too soon on Midday...and Frankel got him out of trouble at Newmarket...this guy is a bad judge of pace. the man cannot be feeling at all confident about his own ability after those two performances and Cecil must surely feel midday would have won given a little more patience..
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I thought they were very poorly judged rides too
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Extremely poor
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just realised you stick a grand on frankel in the st james, and it's 300 for a minute and half's work
that works out at over 100 million a year |
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Quelly's own words talking about Frankel "I got a feel off him that I've never experienced from a horse before - and I ride dozens of horses every week".
Yes dozens of horses, the same dozen every week, unlike some of the better jockeys that have sat on and ridden thousands. Queally factor into the horse = 1/2..4/7..4/6 |
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Yes I agree. Bit of pocket talk because I was on Midday, but I think some other jockeys on board would have given Midday a much better chance.
Interesting to see tactics from Frankel when it does come up a good horse. Jockeyship will be crucial when not just able to burn rivals off. STS beat some pretty good horses by the way, and his wins are in the form book not in the imagination. |
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frank has done everthing asked of him so far but its far to early to call him the horse of the generation , he is however going in the right direction .[;)]
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sts form like a rock, everything he beat won all the major european grp 1 races he wasnt in. questioning his form is just ridiculous.
thats directed at nobody  |
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unlike you ilikewavingatbuses, I identified sea the stars as being a superb prospect as a two-year old and put up a thread tipping him as next years derby winner. pretty much anyone could point out that sea the stars was an outstanding racehorse now of course.
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incidentally i'm just trying to prove the point that it's not always what you beat that proves you are an outstanding racehorse. fame and glory is a one-paced slowboat but for me that doesn't take away from the fact that sea the stars is an exceptional racehorse. just as frankel's performances shouldn't be solely judged by what is finishing behind him.
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mythical prince Joined: 20 Sep 06
Replies: 2889 10 Jun 11 18:22 unlike you ilikewavingatbuses, I identified sea the stars as being a superb prospect as a two-year old and put up a thread tipping him as next years derby winner. pretty much anyone could point out that sea the stars was an outstanding racehorse now of course. wd  |
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incidentally, how do u know i didnt think he was an outstanding horse at 2?
just curious! |
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So churlish imo to crab Frankels form at this stage of his career. Beat the derby second and fourth pointless as well as 2 guineas winners coming out of his guineas already.
And on the subject of versatility,could sts win a july cup? probably not. Could Frankel win a king george? probably not given his style of running. They are both versatile just in different ways and we should just appreciate them for what they are/were |
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well if you did ilawb, then you kept it quiet because I don't recall anything on here.
and at the risk of sounding too eric morris like, I was one of the few to come on here after frankel's DONCASTER win, and hail him as a superstar. Of course now everyone is doing it. |
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good grief MP, you are starting to sound like fooking mayweather, get a grip!
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i'm just trying to point out that the real skill
is identifiying something BEFORE it becomes generally accepted knowledge. on the subject of that I see theres been a lot of money for this hills horse in the coventry, do they know something?  |
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incidentally ilwab, mayweather and co make the same claims every five seconds, so their claims lose effect.
I only do it for the legends [;)] |
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at this stage Frankel is a damn good miler,possibly a great miler,but until we see more of him,he cannot be compared to the greats of the past,and he certainly aint the horse of a generation.
It seems the way things are going that he will be kept to a mile,maybe 10 furlongs,so comparing him with the greats that won top races at middle distance as well as a mile is imo not right. He should be judged against other great milers,and lets face it their aint nowt wrong with that,when you look at the greats we have had over that distance. |
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ABSOLUTELY AGREE, Buddeliea ... Frankel is superb, hopefully sensational... and we'll know WHEN he takes on older milers... Pls God he stuffs it to the yanks at the Breeders Cup this year and comes back for top TEN furlong international races next year... he could easily win 10mil prize money that way... thing is, cash is not important to the owner, who (having already got some very strong 10-12f horses) may look to keep him unbeaten at 8f... Either way, he'd give Denman a run in the "Monster" stakes and letr's just enjoy him for what he is and forget the cross-distance comparisons
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would love to see him up against Canford and Goldikova at some stage,maybe the Sussex Stakes or the QE11,that would tell us a lot more for sure.
Mouth watering stuff!! I'm a NH man,but the prospect of them meeting gets me excited,possibly the race of the century. |
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scrambled home
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sts wouldve picked him up and carried him over the line today without coming off the bit.
14sec final furlong  tom nearly blew it! |
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so,was he dossing as connections said,or was he tired as it looked to me??
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Definitely tiring in final furlong but that's not the horse's fault. Queally got it badly wrong sprinting so early. Would have won doing handstands under most other jockeys IMO.
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Right,so we dont believe trainer and jockey,and believe our own eyes,fair enough,normal then!!
So given that the jockey rode him far too early,what happens when he meets proper milers??.By that i mean the 2 in the earlier race and not the poor by comparism he has beaten so far. Presume different tactics, cos repeat that he gets stuffed. Can he beat Canford?? Not for me. However he is ridden. |
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the problem is everyone is hyping frankel up so much that the doom
mongerers come out in force when he doesn't win 10 lengths. lets all chill out and relax, see the horse for what he is, a superb three year old who could become a great horse. should he be favourite against canford? no. because the older horse has been there and done it. But you couldn't definitely say he wouldn't beat him either. was canford that impressive today? he looked good, but not unbeatable. Ridden with more restraint we'd see frankel in a much better light. |
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Totally agree Myth,we dont know who would win,but i can have my view.
Frankel has earned a shot at the best older horses as he has proved to be the best 3yr old. From what i have seen i really think Canford would beat Frankel,but we will not know for definite till they meet. And yes he has been over hyped,as often happens,and he was unfairly ridden today to be judged properly. We certainly need to see him ridden with more restraint in a race with the best,and then we can judge. |