General Betting
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Bots all over the place
Bots all over the place
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Just checking I can read thank you, Yes you are right, if there are more than one they will leap over each other until(and I suggest you read my comments) they reach their maximum or minimum price criteria. Why shouldn't there be more than one Gazumping bot, I say again why should these leaping bots be the preserve of a privileged few. This smacks very much of an Animal farm atitutde, All Betfairians are equal but some are more equal than others
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Not it smacks of common sense. I have no dog in this race, I have no such bot. It's simply this, as soon as 2 bots are set to go +1 over the bet before, they'll instantly race to their maximum value (if one is set or allowed to be set). If BF give everyone this bot, this'll happen all-the-sodding-time.
So you might as well just put the bet on at the odds you want - which would be your limit, and be done. ... or just get a bot yourself from the many available, I'd imagine from what I've read on this thread programming the configurable bots out there to do what you say is simple. And nobody is stopping anyone. ANYONE. From setting that up this very afternoon. Right now, if you want it, go do it. And if as someone else has said this b365 bot is seeding the market ... well that makes sense. If the market makers at 365 are going to the effort of pricing it up, then a bot can easily track that - a margin here. It's just a specialist version of this : I'd be absolutely shocked if there werent' a load of bots out there arbing the prices of other markets out there anyway, just pulling in the data in an odds checker way and seeing if a profit can be made her. |
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herE.
And might I add if bots were banned (madness) what would happen? You'd just get sweat shops in asia of people manualy entering bets on 20c an hour?! This is just the reality, all this whingeing is frankly a waste of time. And on that note I'm off to do something constructive   |
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(PS by front of the queue did you mean current bet + 1, as this discussion is all about that, or on top of current front, which is putting you .. near the front of the queue. The latter wouldn't instantly race away.
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With regard to banning the bots, that's not and never will be practical. I am no computer expert and if I am wrong in my description can some one please correct me. The reason the API was introduced a few years back was to stop people Scraping information, this was having a drain on the site, they thought by having an API they could at least control the flow of information. So if you ban bots, programmers would just go back to doing what they did before the API was introduced
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Just checking, yes that's what I meant. On many markets at the moment you have one or more gazumping bot, these are often working to certain criteria , for example refresh speed, maximum/ minimum price range, and many others, you don't get the markets instantly moving to 100% but they do head that way over a period of time, with more people having the opportunity to play the gazumping game it would just mean you would get to 100% quicker, in the long term, people who were laissez faire about their criteria would just loose money over time and fall by the wayside
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Ok,if that's what you mean that's fairer so that's not so bad ; But it would open up the manipulation of people moving a 2 pound bet into place in on "bad" odds to draw the bots to place on top of it, then scooping the lot. In fact someone wanting to back could just pull a lay onto the odds they want by doing just that. Not hard to work out I'm afraid.
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Llamedos - yes that was a reason for introducing the API - people can scrape the site anyway and hammer the webservers with heavy request loads. since the webservers are providing loads of graphical information which is irrelevant to the scrapers, this is very inefficient for both parties
the API gives them a way to do this which is both more convenient for programmers and more efficient for betfair, providing pure data rather than full web pages. since the data flow is separate and controlled, betfair can also charge higher fees for heavy API users, while keeping a free version which is strictly throttled for 'lite' users and betfairs even newer API (the API-NG) is even more trimmed down and compact than the old API, for exactly the same reasons |
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(I didn't mean last sentence as an insult, just .. people will work it out very quickly).
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Just Checking,That's only assuming that somebody has put criteria for say their lay bet to move out in price to an unlimited number. A simple example if you where laying a favourite which you felt was a 6/4 chance you wouldn't let your lay bet go out to 100/1 you would probably have the maximum set at say around 2.7
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1.01 Layer 12 Oct 13 10:08 Joined: 23 Aug 03 | Topic/replies: 4,690 | Blogger: 1.01 Layer's blog
The focus on the 1.99 bot is that it's a bot. It should be that it's minimum bet abuse. The prevalence of invisible bets makes markets inefficient and gives the invisible bettor an unfair advantage, especially if the 1.99 bet is replenished every time it gets taken. -------- that's exactly the point, and also the point I was making in the first place which BJT totally failed to grasp in his usual shouty 14 year old just out of sarcasm class way. why is the bet 1.99? to prevent people seeing it and beating its offer. it's set at the level it is to get business but also stifle the formation of an efficient market. if it was 2 quid, it would still be annoying in the way that competition's always annoying, but I wouldn't have a problem with it. |
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Llamedos ..................... I say again why should these leaping bots be the preserve of a privileged few. This smacks very much of an Animal farm atitutde, All Betfairians are equal but some are more equal than others Not too sure how you've come to this Animal Farm conclusion, it's not as if Betfair is giving anyone an advantage, they haven't paid or programmed the bots for people, you're perfectly entitled to commission or write your own you know? It's always going to be the situation that some people will be prepared to put that extra effort in or pay extra to get an advantage over the masses whether that's courtsiding or botting. |
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Ghetto, I have often seen written that to write a program similar to the type of bot being discussed was relatively easy, if that was the case, why doesn't Betfairs 'crack team ' of computer programmers add this type of facility to their new site. At least everybody would have opportunity to have a go with a Gazumping bot, that would then make it fairer for everybody
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Why on earth would Betfair want to introduce additional features that'd continually be polling the site for prices and impact on the site's stability just because people can't be bothered to use the dedicated API themselves. I've heard match tickets are relatively easy to obtain too , hopefully Betfair will get me some and hold my hand whilst I'm there so I don't get scared.
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Re your earlier quote '' it's not as if Betfair is giving anyone an advantage '' well I am afraid you are wrong, I have as an extra premium charge payer been offer(at least until the end of October)transaction free charges, I think you would consider that an advantage over other users.
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The way I see it the exchange is now riddled with £2 bot operators and that can only be bad for BF.
For example, I often see markets that have 8 bots competing and offering £2 bets, ironically they are dumb bots that just gazump the latest bot's price, so are actually offering good value to the opposing punter and as such I will very often take the first 3 or 4 bots money. But the point is, when the recreational punter wants to get 20 or 30 quid on, and being a recreational punter he doesn't know the correct price, all he sees is offers of 2 quid after 2 quid, so he will disappear to a bookie that will let him get his 30 quid on and the exchange misses out not only on that occasion, but also that that punter has probably gone for good. I don't know what the answer is, but if I was running the exchange I would like to trial perhaps a minimum bot stake of £50 to clear out some of the more parasitical bots and offer recreational punters a stake worth having. |
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BJT, I don't understand where Googling comes into it sorry, but Viva is correct in that some punters like to place a myriad of £1.99 bets in order to get matched ahead of the visible amount, but not entice the visible amount to jump it. It's rife.
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And I am correct in saying the minimum legitimate Euro staked bet will not show on the exchange due to BFs system, and through no fault of their own.
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And for all the smarties out there. How do you feel the exchange would even know a bot was running? Excel triggered betting for instance, is just a bet triggered to bet through the betting program it is linked with, ie Gruss/Betangel. There is nothing on the bet reference that says "this bet came from a triggered bet".
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If they're allowed to stake less than £2 then yes it won't show, but the point is by looking at the graphs you can see sometimes dozens of £1.99 bets that aren't there by innocent euro stakers, they're there because that's the maximum sized stake that will remain hidden and not entice a punter or bot to jump it.
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How do you know?
They are allowed to stake 2 Euro, which is about 1.7 GBP. That gives them the scope of about 2-2.33 Euros that won't show on BF servers. That is they system they work on, so why the fcuk not take advantage of it? Are outright soccer matches affected by 2 pound bots? If they are such a problem, then surely it is just a matter of time. All these "recreational punters" out there, how many of them would want to bet on these unpopular markets? They are unpopular because most of them are ridiculous and unneeded. There is too many markets and some won't be popular. Recreational punters, would want to back their team to win, not score 1.6 times between the 22nd and 27th minute of games played between 20 and 21.5 degrees. |
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Good point about triggered betting, I actually wouldn't have a clue how to run a bot or detect who was doing it, so will leave the answer to someone else.
I've nothing against bots btw, as per my other thread they can be easily manipulated and the exchange is rife with them at the moment for easy pickings, but I just think the exchange on the whole would be more attractive to recreational and new punters without the £2 parasite bots being the first thing they see when trying to place a bet. |
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Yes, but as above, that is on the assumption that these recreational punters are avoiding the obvious markets that people like to bet on, and going for the specialist markets. Specialist markets are called that for a reason. Recreational punters rarely if at all, bet on specialist markets.
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Admittedly, I very much dislike soccer, so am not going to pretend to know what all the terms mean. So I will consider myself, if I were to bet on the game, to be a recreational punter.
Now the options I have: Arsenal Clean Sheet? I assume that means they aren't scored against? Aresenal win to nil. I assume that means they aren't scored against? Correct score Arsenal every option to 0. I assume that means they aren't scored against? In fact, there are 77 different markets, for 1 game of soccer. I call a big WTF. Why are so many markets needed where a lot essentially do the same thing. What recreational punter would join Betfair to try and place a bet on Norwich being scored against first and then coming back to win the game? You seriously suggesting they are joining for these markets? They are probably more turned off by not having a clue how to simply place a bet on their team to win the game through the myriad of ridiculous markets. 77 markets for 90 minutes of soccer? Come on now. 1.99 pounds is the least of peoples issues here. |
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People do not use bots,apparently betfair use inhouse bots to cut your price back or lay,so I am constantly being told
by the experts. I don't know what to believe anymore as betfair deny these claims obviously. You can make your own mind up like I have Swedebank, but you are correct that bots are killing the markets so why do betfair allow their use,to improve market depths they tell me but I find that answer is not true as the market depths simply have not improved in my 7 or so years of using this product,so why really??? |
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Just backed 3 horses in a Melbourne trot race,
each time I placed the bet a bot kicked in and I had to redo each bet at a lower price to get on in time. As soon as each bet was matched upon refresh the price would drift back out again as if my timing was just bad!. Very very hard to comprehend that someone is using bots which say that if someone wants the price available then they will get that price first and if no one like me wants that price then these people using bots will simply go without the bet aswell.Makes no sense at all yet betfair want me to believe this is true... |
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I just hope these shy recreational punters appreciate the efforts of full time traders like trev and viva speaking up for them.
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I imagine it has been said and I haven't read all the thread but the increase in bot activity is due to the scrapping of the transaction charge.
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Ghetto Joe, I'm not speaking up for anyone, I'm just saying what I believe would be best for growth of the exchange.
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BJT: They are probably more turned off by not having a clue how to simply place a bet on their team to win the game through the myriad of ridiculous markets.
77 markets for 90 minutes of soccer? Come on now. 1.99 pounds is the least of peoples issues here. The match odds market is easily visible, the other markets are too many IMO but that's a whole separate issue. Do you place £1.99 bets yourself BJT? If you did would it make any moral difference whether you bet in pounds or euros? In both instances your plan would be the same. |
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the problem i find with bots is they manage to sweep up bets quicker (somehow) how do they manage it ? usually noticable after a goal has been scored and the SUSP sign lifted
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BJT, your relentless, monotonous and aggressive reiteration of the same points is bordering on bullying now. As important as your opinion is, it is not the only one.
I welcome the difference of opinion on the forum but I have no patience for trolls. At least Morse was amusing at times. |
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Belittling someones views insulting them ,calling them a troll and accusing them of bullying, seems a bit hypocritical to be honest
 BJT just seems to be pointing out the fact if these 1.99 bets are hidden why are they of such importance to anyone arriving at the site to have a bet, the simple fact is the people who complain about the 'hidden' bets are well capable of seeing them as they're also using the API but just annoyed someone else is beating their poor value bets with slightly better poor value. If you go on the new site there's even an option to change what the minimum bet value you see is , so obviously not everyone even want's to low amounts displayed in the first place. If people are annoyed about the 1.99's they need to direct it at Betfair as minimum bet abuse, no one on the forum can do anything about it. The continual whining about sub £2 bets on the forum isn't going to embarrass Betfair into action as the fact is the only people who care are pretty much employing the same tactics. |
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The 365 tracker bot is now operating on every basketball every basketball market, so sad.
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BJT • October 17, 2013 2:24 AM BST
Bullying? rotflmfao. Oh dear. Sensitive Suzy is on the case. Haha, love it! Classic troll response.Keep it up, BJT. I wouldn't expect anything less |
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Come on now Suzy, you are the only one that has been personal here. Your bullying remark was absolutely ridiculous considering your posts directed at me.
Enjoy your time on the forum. |