I trade manually on old website, hit for £551 PC this week, depressing

Been playing US horse all night ,depressing.Most winners I had have paid 12/1 etc on here 20/1 on the us pools.
In the old days the outside would have been 50/1 on here.Now all the bigger priced horses are depressed.
As soon as someone lays a good price in a billionth of a second Bf cross matching bot takes it.
It's not an exchange anymore.It's like a big fruit machine where they give newbies 98% payback from their 100% and
skillful player 60% back from their 100%.As long as everyone loses it seems Bf are happy.
People who helped them for free for years have been let down badly.
SCRAP THE PREMIUM CHARGE A.S.A.P.

I think the lack of impact that the rugby union PC exemption is having is a good indicator that the exchange problems are far wider reaching than just the existence of PC....

10 years ago Betfair was the place to find value. Now the bookmakers have narrowed the spreads and for a straight bet the value is with the bookmakers. So betfairs commission structure is making betfair uncompetitive for straight bets.
Other problems with Betfair.
Beta site is unusable.
Closing the forum to new members. Forum was a unique selling point bringing people to the site.

I haven't checked the matched figures but my hunch is that despite the rugby markets still having poor liquidity they are still marginally better than before the trial started (if someone could confirm that'd be great).

Obviously you'd expect to see a bit of a pick up with Heineken cup matches and in the Autumn internationals, but when compared to similar fixtures last year I'd guess they were slightly ahead.

The key thing here is that things aren't going to drastically improve overnight.  The rugby trial lasts until June which is a fair timescale but let's remember that Betfair are trying to mend something that they've gone out of their way to break over the last 5 years.

There's a lot of bad will towards them now and people will need to be won over in order to return. Why would users go out of their way to work on profitable rugby strategies if the carrot of no premium charges risks being taken away in a few months?

Unless Betfair change their pricing structure including premium charges soon, they have a grim future ahead.  They've lost the best form of advertising - word of mouth - and are more reliant on costly TV advertising than ever.

Ayers - They've not posted about the 'current' (and ongoing) rugby union PC exemption on here, for some reason.

Marky - First week it came into action, there was a lot more money around, though that may in part have been as a result of no Premier League footy (international week).  Since then, it's been pretty much the same old, same old, IMHO - certainly on the handicap markets.  I'll concede that some of the Heineken Cup matches (particularly last week's) have been poor for traders (1.01 trains, in the main).

They've certainly been looking.

Spanish Primera Liga also falls under the current exemption too, FWIW.

Frog said ..
They just need to admit they were wrong and change their pricing. They need to stop taking advise off computer programmers/traders and start thinking about what they can offer to punters. They need to offer the best value on the web.
   This is the problem, the pricing structure is hugely advantageous( even allowing for pc ) to scalpers and momentum traders in the highly liquid markets.
Most punters want to have straight bet but are penalised with a huge 5% commission on their bet.
Betfair need to lower the overall commission, scrap the pc and have a commission on a transaction basis.
This as far as i can see is the fairest thing to do.

BETUNFAIR HAVE SCREWED UP THE TAX IS A BIG NO GO.
WHO THE HELL DO THEY THINK WILL KEEP PAYING 40-50-60-TAX.
NOW YOU MAY SAY PLENTY DO,BUT LOOK AT ALL THERE IN PLAY MARKETS,SOME HAVE DECLINED THAT MUCH NO ONE EVER LOOKS,NEVER MIND BET OR SEED.

There are an absolute maximum of 5% of punters who are not going to lose. They're either going to turn a profit or not bet.

The question for any bm is whether they want to accommodate these players. Can they extract some information for them, or get some irreplaceable liquidity from them, that compensates for proprietary losses / loss of losing-customer custom?

A new generation of Pinny and the Asians are doing this for football and other 2-team sports and can expect to attract more and more custom just on price. I'm not sure it's possible for any sport like the horses on which bf have liquid market because their price info. is implicitly available for free.

The problem is bet356 are running 102% books on the Premiership soccer match odds market. Small punters would be better betting there than paying 5% commission betting on the exchange. Thats the problem and Betfair will have to deal with it.

send your Questions to the MDs about the PC to see if there is anything in the pipeline to sort this mess out

Yes, P/C needs to be much fairer if it is here to stay. Market makers put many hours of research into creating / establishing the markets with liquidity; whereas the bots just feed of that hard work and yet stil pay the same P/C rates, (other than requests of course).

They may have sound reasons for the PC but the thing is it needs to be fairer. Or better still scrap it, screwing winning customers for more money was not the original concept of betfair. It was an own goal when greed and desperation set in.

Noooo it's not just traders that find it unfair... People like me who have good strike rate also get punished... And just because people are traders doesn't mean they are winners, it's possible to lose big/have losing weeks trading too.

And if Betfair is for the shareholders then isn't that an even bigger reason to scrap pc or atleast make it fairer?? When a worthy rival to Betfair eventually gets their act together, people will leave Betfair in droves, how's that gunna work out for shareholders?

Competition is not necessarily from another exchange. If you make a margin over 2.5% on turnover you pay PC on here. So it hits any gambler that has had a half decent run. The guy who invented the Premium Charge has never heard of companies like Pinnacle, SBO and IBC who are Betfair's main future competition for sophisticated gamblers.

It seems the whole model that the PC was built on was based on false assumptions.

also the share holders must be comfortable about the upwards value of the company.

You cannot club all the shareholders together as one. Share price is still below the float price. It could be argued that the rise this year is more due to cost cutting than any positives on the revenue side.

If the POCT comes in next year (which seems very likely) Betfair will be up for an extra £15m a year tax bill. This will rise if they continue to only focus on a small number of countries.

Over a period of time I cannot see how scrapping the PC could not be at least revenue neutral. Revenues are not up since it came in and they were growing massively YOY before it came in.

But the publicity and good will over the public apology could cut a significant amount off the need for £100m a year to be spent on marketing.

Are you seriously trying to claim the share price would FALL if Betfair scrapped the Premium Charge publicly and decisively??

I do not pay it.

Its not about having sympathy or jealousy or anything else for those who pay the charge. That is irrelevant.

The PC is a destructive force on the efficient running of the markets regardless of who wins or loses.

"it's not just traders that find it unfair... People with a good strike rate also get punished.."

That is the issue about the fairness of it, they want to target certain players but others are caught up in the net. 

And no evidence of a mass exodus to the other site, It might still be possible for them to become a realistic competitor, but at the moment they are little more than a thorn in the side for betfair. However, they do need to look after valuable customers and not p1ss them off. And I know they have the shareholders and customers to keep happy.  But would the share price fall if they scrapped the PC (?)

They will always be after those who pay less than 10% of their
profits, retaining 90%+ for themselves. Unfortunate but there you
are.