We want to share an important update with our Betfair Community users.
Over the coming months, the Betfair Community platform will be winding down. The final active day for the platform will be December 21st. From December 22nd, users will no longer be able to access the platform.
Your discussions, insights, engagement, and, most importantly, feedback have helped shape the platform and guided innovation. Your feedback continues to be important to us, and we will continue to listen via our dedicated feedback channels, as well as through product testing and innovations.
To share your feedback and experience, visit: https://support.betfair.com/app/home
General Betting
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
These 2082 comments are related to the topic:
THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED
THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 2,082
|
By:
I guess you don't pay PC BigMig....?
LOSSES are carried over...... TWO Calculations are made each week...... One for the week in isolation, One for your lifetime situation......The one that generates the LEAST PC is used and therefore LOSSES are effectively carried over each week when the second calculation is used....i.e. One's lifetime Situation...... |
|
By:
Actually hazel, that is exactly how Betfair plan to do it....Your Weekly PC Statement will remain the same as it always has but Betfair are planning on giving people "Rebates" Wednesday lunchtime based on Rugby winnings......Your situation is nice and easy, assuming you pay 40% PC, you will receive a £2 rebate on Wednesday and everything will carry on as normal......
Well that is the theory.....You will have to let us know if you receive your "Windfall" on Wednesday lunchtime...... |
|
By:
No llama1.
It's not good if Rugby losses are carried foward to offset against future Rugby wins. Week one lose £1500 rugby Week two win £1500 rugby. If losses are not carried foward I get full rebate on £1500 win At the moment week one £1500 loss is already offset against other sport winnings this week. So they remove it from above, to offset week 2 £1500 Rugby win, leaving me PC to pay on week 1 other sport winnings,which is no longer offset. As clear as mud. |
|
By:
I don't think you are reading it correctly JML......
Each week is treated in isolation. Therefore if this week you WON £1500 on Football and LOST £1500 on Rugby, you would pay NO PC (Providing LOSSES are counted). Next week is a brand new week and if you were to WIN £1500 at Rugby, you would be allowed to keep ALL of it (NO PC on Rugby Wins). Therefore over the TWO weeks, you have paid NO PC. Under the old rules, you would have paid £600 over the TWO weeks (Based on 40% PC)...... Betfair are NOT planning to make any changes to your PC Statement Calculations (Well, that was their initial game plan).... The only thing additional is the idea of a rebate on the PC that you have provisionally paid via your PC Statement on Tuesday for your Rugby WINS...... |
|
By:
all this tinkering about and manipulation of things ,it's so fecking gay ! ...even 'dave' and his cronies is at it again with this stupid mortgage scheme coming into effect tomorrow .
What happened to the days of real men and meaningful values ? ...where you walloped someone in the nuts at 8pm for eyeing up yer missus and ended up shaking their hand and buying them a drink at 10pm  |
|
By:
AND we used jumpers for goalposts!
The other elephant in the room here re liqudity is that BF has pulled out of big market countries due to local legislation. IMO they should be pushing to get back into them, maybe offering to pay local tax or something in exchange... Though giving e.g. France a big pile of mullah in extra tax might give Red Ed an idea for something to nab here, bashing betting companies would probably be suitably populist.. |
|
By:
Llama1 This was my original post which you questioned.
I lost £1500 on the rugby yesterday. If losses are carried foward it's very unlikely I'll have another bet on Rugby. Obviously if every week is taken in isolation,the above doesn't apply. And at the moment no one knows if every week is taken in isolation. It would leave the scenario where people pay different amount for exactly the same bets depending when they were placed. |
|
By:
i'm guessing this stops and starts with Rugby ,so it's a PC portal based around Rugby and indi of other sports
so losing on Rugby doesn't allow you to win elsewhere |
|
By:
Yes it does.
The only difference is PC paid on Rugby winnings. |
|
By:
With all due respect JML, I still think that you would WANT Losses to be carried over to the next week......
If Rugby LOSSES are carried over, this would mean that your LIFETIME PC Calculation, for the two weeks in question, would be a NETT +£1500 and the £600 PC charge in week 2, would be negated with a £600 Rebate for your Rugby WIN in week2. Anyway, I am sure we will get a clearer indication over the next few days...... |
|
By:
The problem with that idea Coachbuster is that any PC Payer who LOSES at Rugby Union is going to be much worse off under the new scheme......
So if anything, this would make even less liquidity in the Rugby Markets, due to the fact that the PC Payers do not dare play in Rugby Union Markets...... |
|
By:
my opinion is this is the end of premium charge, if betfair scrapped PC rugby markets would be no better off this way they let people get round PC but with adding liquidity to the markets, expect it to extend to other markets, rugby league next then maybe snooker, baseball and so on.
markets they will never add are horse racing, football, tennis, cricket no increase in liquidity is needed in these markets |
|
By:
It's late, but it appears there's mass over-complication of what's been announced.
If it's simply a rebate of PC paid on rugby union markets - as they've said - and the PC calculation doesn't change, then betting on rugby union will now allow you to slash PC payments. If you pay PC and don't understand how, you're a great example of why too many people are caught in the PC trap. |
|
By:
yes TP, but how likely is it that they'd deliberately go about effectively scrapping the PC in this way?
more likely, surely, they've simply not thought it through. possibly they had two problems - unpopularity of PC and dead markets in some sports including RU - and someone said, hey, we can do something clever here and solve both problems at once. and it got agreed because no one fully understood the implications. |
|
By:
what is the problem???. this way they give u a chance to effectively reduce/scrap PC but with adding liquidity to the minor markets
|
|
By:
so if the pc is scrapped what happens to all the charges to date ? are they returned ? it's affected a certain amount of folk for a limited time (hitting me bang on)
this is loopy , i currently have around 5k to win before i hit charges again due to recent losses - that's something that shouldn't be allowed to happen imo - all charges should be refunded on losing weeks  greedy BF |
|
By:
which effectively is paying premium charge on winnings you haven't won
 I'm surprised we don't get charged for breathing air |
|
By:
Was very happy when received the email
Then gutted when read that New Zealand and Aussie accounts are excluded. Very unfair and annoying , been on here since the start and now being paid less than other players simply because im in NZ. |
|
By:
Only BF could start something a week ago , only e-mail a select few and have no rules explaining how it works.
|
|
By:
viva el presidente! • September 29, 2013 11:54 PM BST
yes TP, but how likely is it that they'd deliberately go about effectively scrapping the PC in this way? more likely, surely, they've simply not thought it through. possibly they had two problems - unpopularity of PC and dead markets in some sports including RU - and someone said, hey, we can do something clever here and solve both problems at once. and it got agreed because no one fully understood the implications. This is the crux of the matter. In my opinion, Betfair HAVEN'T chosen this as a way to scrap PC, they just haven't realised the implications! They're trialling a number of methods of 'intelligent' pricing and this is one of them. They want to see if the increased liquidity (and hence extra commission they earn) in rugby union offsets the lost PC they currently make from this sport. They probably make minimal PC from rugby union so they thought it was a no-lose situation. They clearly didn't factor in people using it as a way to slash their overall PC bill. I'm expecting confirmation today from my a/c manager as to whether rugby union losses do count towards the overall PC calculation. My gut feeling is there's going to be some major tweaking to this trial. As usual, Betfair's communication has been piss poor (and this coming from someone who got a phone call and an email about it) and they're showing a complete lack of understanding how the PC affects its customers. |
|
By:
frames • September 30, 2013 8:09 AM BST
Only BF could start something a week ago , only e-mail a select few and have no rules explaining how it works. I believe the email was sent only to those who have paid PC on rugby union before. This strengthens my belief they didn't realise it was a tool that all PC users could use to reduce PC. Maybe they thought if someone hadn't bet on rugby union before they wouldn't be interested. Which is dumb on two counts: 1) maybe PC-paying customers were betting on rugby union elsewhere because of the PC; 2) maybe PC-paying customers would now bet on rugby union in order to reduce their PC. |
|
By:
I see what you're saying Templeton, but that would be pretty naïve to say the least.
I would hope they don't just come up with an idea in 10 minutes and roll it out. I think they've realised what a massive boost it will give all exchange activity, get people talking about the exchange again and ensure weekend rugby will be extremely lively. Anything else will just add to the complexity of the charge or even worse prevent people from playing rugby markets because they wont have a clue where they stand |
|
By:
Yep, I think Betfair have been naive. As I've said, they probably spent weeks thinking about this and it took many of us seconds/minutes to notice the implication.
If they wanted to slash PC in order to boost liquidity/goodwill, there are countless better ways to do it. They'd also certainly have informed all customers, not just the PC-payers who already bet on rugby union and also highlighted in their email that losses will count. The email simply says you'll get a rebate on any PC paid on rugby union, implying this is the only benefit. This is one of those times I hope I'm wrong. |
|
By:
The email also says
Your premium charge statement will include all your rugby activity AS NORMAL, but you will receive an account credit on Wednesday... I guess we'll find out Wednesday when notes are compared |
|
By:
Yep, the email says all stays the same but you get a rebate on rugby union. This implies you now keep all your winnings but losers will continue to reduce your PC. I'd be amazed if they realised this would lead to a huge dent in their PC revenue.
Anyway, like you say, we need more info. I'm hearing back today from my account manager who'll inform me of the finer details. The chaps in charge of this weren't in the office (late) Friday afternoon. |
|
By:
Look forward to hearing what they say to you Templeton.
I spoke to them Friday and was told more emails would be going out in the next few days.Still nothing here so far. |
|
By:
Just heard back. Losses DO count. In brief, the PC is calculated exactly the same as it has been. The only difference is we get a rebate from any PC incurred from rugby union bets.
I'm now asking how they calculate the rebate in weeks where your PC is based on your lifetime figures. Say I owe £1,000 based on my lifetime but had £5,000 winnings on rugby union and am a 40% payer. |
|
By:
Great news.
As you say, now we need to know if the rebate can be more than the pc. |
|
By:
Thanks Templeton for feedback.
Just for clarification. It's the word rebate that gets me. If I don't pay any pc this week because of losses on other sports. Do I get a refund (rebate) on previously paid pc if in this week of total losses, my rugby bets are in profit. Cheers |
|
By:
Hazel, I'll ask. I'm assuming if you don't pay PC for a week then you get no rebate whatsoever.
|
|
By:
So on winning weeks (other sports) you can get some great value RU bets.
Win on RU and you keep all but normal 3-5% commission. Lose on RU and your PC is reduced by 40-60% of the stake, so you effectively get a refund of half-ish the stake of losing RU bets. Can you guarantee a win with an arb, or does it depend on the BF bet losing? Not sure my head is quite around this yet.  |
|
By:
Templeton that would mean that you will pay pc on rugby bets. Because the next week your lifetime profit, which will be used to calculate that weeks pc, will include rugby bets that you did not get a rebate for.
|
|
By:
Or put another way, it looks like from what you said in post 13.03 that if you lose on other sports in any week, you will not get a full rebate of rugby winnings.
That might be something arb players need to consider? Not sure. But it sounds complicated if you lose on other sports. |
|
By:
Hazel, I've asked for clarification on how it'll be calculated. My initial thoughts have been you need to know roughly how well you're going to do that week to be able to act accordingly. If so, rugby union matches on a Sunday will see the biggest increase in liquidity.
1.01 Layer, your first paragraph is correct. On winning weeks for other sports, you can use rugby to win and keep it all or lose and reduce the PC you pay on the other sports. I don't quite understand your second paragraph though. |
|
By:
Templeton Your involvement in trying to sort this is much appreciated.
|
|
By:
I 2nd that, Hazel/ Thanks TP.
My 2nd para was referring to RU bets. To rephrase: Is it possible to guarantee a win, by arbing the RU bet, in case it loses? i.e. On a winning week, say you have a RU bet. If it wins, great - you're quids in and PC is unchanged. But if it loses, although you have had a good value bet (because of the rebate), you still lose, albeit half(ish) of your stake. |
|
By:
Yeah thanks TP, good stuff.
1.01 you can, doesn't really matter if it's a winning or losing week, law of averages and all that. |
|
By:
No worries. The irony is I'm not going to be paying PC for the next month or two as when I moved from 50% to 40% the recalculated lifetime figures left my lifetime total charges at c.45%. But it will be of interest to me once I'm back paying PC, so I need to know the answers to our questions.
|
|
By:
Agreed, curly. You CAN eat value in the long run. I was just contemplating the possibility of a guaranteed win.
|
|
By:
Thanks TP.
Over the weekend I arbed 2 bets ,they both lost on BF so I lost £400 on here.All good but depending on the rules I see it as one bet a week when it looks like a winning week on Others and hope to lose on here.It will help a bit.But on the week where the rugby bet cops on here does is it then start from scratch the following week ? If both bets had copped this week putting me 400 up on rugby would I have to lose 400 the next week to get to level on rugby or would that 400 count to any possible PC that week ? |