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They are probably unable to view live 3pm Saturday Premiership games, the same as the rest of us.
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Ell
03 Jan 13 01:25 Betfair aren't refunding and said that "Due to the nature of the initial attacking move there were slightly lower odds put into the system by various customers anticipating the potential of a goal but in any case this was about 15 seconds before the penalty was given." I've looked at the video of the 3rd goal. 71:56 Poor headed clearance 72:01 Foul on edge of penalty area. 72:03 Ref points to the spot. Their quote of 15 seconds is rubbish. It was at best a promising position but certainly not a clear chance. 7 seconds at the most, probably less. The peoblem here is that you probably draw your conclusion from your delayed tv pictures. If your video is from digital HD pictures I wouldn't be surprised if they were as much as 5 - 8 seconds behind live and then we are close to the 15 seconds Betfair are talking about. Apart from that , I have no opinion on whether The Investor was hoovered or not though. |
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I think that
1) It's extremely unlikely that someone / some people would take such a wide range of odds merely based on a promising attack, taking out multiple markets simultaneously for bucket loads. 2) Immediately after the same thing happens at every goal in the Liverpool match, especially the disallowed one. Anyone moving the price 20 ticks with a good chance would go broke double quick. They're blatantly placing their bets after they know what's happened. If someone is betting what must be tens of thousands overall, and doing it repeatedly on UK untelevised matches, my money is on them being a fast pic merchant rather than a lucky mug. The City v Stoke match was on BBC radio stoke. I think Betfair might have to start actively scouting for sources like that for feeds (as I should too!). |
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Is it not just someone sitting in the stadium on their iphone.
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'I would advise you to stay away from games you're not watching.'
____________ the pictures are delayed to start with though ,how would watching the game help ? |
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It can help a bit coach, for instance if my pics are as fast as Betfair's feed, and the suspend guy is 2 seconds slow, I might be able to cancel my bets before the suspend, when the goal is scored (or with the slow feed 6-8 seconds after the goal is scored real time).
But of course having a fast feed like radio is far more valuable. |
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not really, eddie. though the pictures were delayed, the intervals between events are obviously reliable.
so if the "promising move" started 7 seconds before the goal was scored, the 15 second quote can't stand, whatever the delay. |
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My point is that if it was a big player:
1)If they were randomly putting in bets taking out 20 ticks, they will be losers for sure, and not matching me only when a goal is insta-scored. 2)If they are not doing it randomly, but during a strong attack (but before knowing what's already happened), they would still be losers I think. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and say they have some marginal edge. In that case I should be getting matched at various times when there isn't a (disallowed) goal/penalty, just a good chance 50/50 say. I'm only getting matched 20 ticks deep when I lose (as I've lost the instant the bet is matched). |
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investor: do you use any software? properly set up, the live charting on geeks captures hoovering visually pretty well, and a screenshot might be useful in similar cases.
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Investor- from a hoovering point of view there is more to it than anticipating moves via digital broadcasting i guess.
This lot are probably at the ground with their i-pads etc . Wasn't there a group hoovering in Spain or Mexico ? made a fair whack before getting found out . Yeah ,it goes on - BF need a quicker feed ,can't be hard on most big games . |
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This lot are probably at the ground with their i-pads etc .
thats what i said there obviously on their phones or that, it happens in tennis so often i.e courtsiding people do it for a living although, once in madrid a couple of years there were plain clothed officials posing as normal fans who then swamped on a lot of them and banned the, cant se any clamp down in a 40,000 stadium |
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slow suspends affects consumer confidence and some of these suspends are very slowww and i don't know why, something needs looking at here - either the feed fed to BF is not up to scratch or operators perhaps aren't paying enough attention .
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i suspect a digital /analogue combo is (and should be) used at all times . No way are BF just reliant on digital .
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If you can't beat 'em join 'em. Why can't BF have an operative or two at the ground, armed with suspend button thingys :) The suspend would happen 5/6/7 seconds before we see the reason why on tv, hoovering would be impossible. As you say Coach, slow suspends kill consumer confidence, something needs looking at.
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By: This user is online. Coachbuster Date Joined: 08 Apr 06
Blogger: Coachbuster's blog Add contact | Send message When: 04 Jan 13 22:04 Joined: Date Joined: 08 Apr 06 | Topic/replies: 21,845 | Blogger: Coachbuster's blog Investor- from a hoovering point of view there is more to it than anticipating moves via digital broadcasting i guess. This lot are probably at the ground with their i-pads etc . Wasn't there a group hoovering in Spain or Mexico ? made a fair whack before getting found out . Yeah ,it goes on - BF need a quicker feed ,can't be hard on most big games . Alright coach. How did you hear/find out about this group in Spain or Mexico, would like to read about that?! Trevh. I agree, why dont betfair have their own suspend operative at the ground? And if they do use the scouts from Runningball at grounds instead, why isn't the message that theres been a goal/pen/red card, getting through to Betfair in order to suspend before all the markets get hoovered?! |
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Gazza , it was in the news some months ago now -i'm sure someone on here can remember it .
might have even been been south America |
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There was clear hoovering in copa america and there used to be clear hoovering in the primera, so it's not 'or' it's both!
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There are a few solutions:
1. Betfair get fast feeds (live / someone at the ground) 2. Betfair introduce a post-cancelling system ("unmatching" matched bets with x seconds of the suspend. 3. Don't leave bets up. |
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I would add
4. Dedicate 2 people to suspend duty. That would probably halve the problems. Also always use radio. For instance for the Man City v Stoke match, BBC radio Stoke had it on. Betfair should be able to find a way to get that. ------------- 3. Is a no go. I bet money at virtually every tick at market. |
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I agree with investor. This isn't the hooverer's fault - all they're doing is finding an edge that we're all trying to get, just that there's is slightly more immoral. And this isn't other punter's fault - you should be able to leave money up with confidence. It's Betfair's task to find a solution, be that find a method to suspend as quickly as possible and as accurately as possible, but secondly leave a suspend long enough that covers their own delay.
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It's Betfair's task to find a solution, be that find a method to suspend as quickly as possible and as accurately as possible, but secondly leave a suspend long enough that covers their own delay.
It's been happening for years. Betfair have tightened up, to their credit. In the meantime, despite the rights or wrongs of it, how long can you keep leaving prices up for the market sweepers to steal? That's why is the only way to protect. |
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How long?
I've really curtailed my in-play betting on football - for various reason. But one because I keep getting stung by something akin to hoovering. Yes, it's really hit my profits because despite the hoovering I was making money on football but it's also reduced the silly errors I was making which enabled the hoovering to hit me. |
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i've seen it before.
why is it that they are now beating an 8 sec delay when we used to have a 5 sec (even less maybe ) ? why weren't they beating the clock a lot more before now ? |
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EE broadband mobile?
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Pics are more delayed these days than ever, plus it can't be too far from the imagination that some of the suspend guys are getting back handers for getting it wrong, or not wrong, just a few secs out. Must be minimum wage kind of job so a few of them will be ripe for getting at.
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analogue is dying that will slow things down.
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2. Betfair introduce a post-cancelling system ("unmatching" matched bets with x seconds of the suspend.
Yeah, I think this is exactly what's needed. I'm not quite sure how this would work, but I suppose that a bet would hit the market (after the usual bet delay period), and then if it hits an opposing bet at the same odds, would display as 'provisionally matched'. Then, after the post-cancel delay period, it would display as 'matched'. At this point, of course, even if a goal is scored, the bets stand. |
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"If a 'big player' is closing a position, 20 ticks is very possible. They would not go broke doing this."
I can guarantee you, they would go broke |
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TheVis : plus it can't be too far from the imagination that some of the suspend guys are getting back handers for getting it wrong, or not wrong, just a few secs out. Must be minimum wage kind of job so a few of them will be ripe for getting at.
That's never entered my mind but I have to agree, yes that is entirely possible. |
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That's never entered my mind but I have to agree, yes that is entirely possible.
That, and backhanders to broadcast personnel for access to streams. |
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Yes, there is no doubt a serious amount of money involved so corruption at some level is almost certainly happening.
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^
The question is why would they not get out over a period of say 1-2 minutes and get an average price close to market 2.4, instead of the nonsensically poor one they get taking out the market dozens of ticks deep? In a decent match with good liquidity it just doesn't make sense to behave like that. |
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Haven't been following football markets the last month or so but before that 364 seemed to suspend well before betfair regularly. believe a lot of gambling companies use the same feed so unsure why other firms can suspend quicker than here.
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"Haven't been following football markets the last month or so but before that 364 seemed to suspend well before betfair regularly. believe a lot of gambling companies use the same feed so unsure why other firms can suspend quicker than here."
Incentives... at other firms the firm gets screwed on late suspends here the customer gets screwed, so other chap makes a profit and betfair probably make 5-60% of this. |
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