Man city hoovering at penalty?

Probably due to slightly slow suspend by Betfair.It definitely looks like someone took advantage of the situation.Be amazed if you get them to refund-given the amounts involved wish you all the best in pursuing the matter.

I'm impressed that you can get your bets refunded when you are hoovered. When I phoned up the one time it happened to me I got a "no they are not cheats, yeah it happens but they pay more in charges so it ok" answer. Because they will more than likely be paying pc.

Phew I thought, i may have been swindled by these cheats and lost money but as long as betfair don't lose out that's the main thing. It was a huge relief to hear that and i promptly went to bed and had a nice long relaxing sleep.

I never get some joker taking my bets 10 or 20 ticks away from the market and being wrong.

This. It happens all too frequently for my liking. It's one of the reasons, I've really cut back my in-play betting on football. There's far too much hoovering going on for my liking and it appears little done about it. Even when you've complained on this occasion, and it seems a fair complaint, nothing is done.

Just looking the replay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0L2m3USY0Q

Looks like the tackle was outside the box and shouldn't have been a penalty.

Massive hoovering at Anfield tonight, even with the 8 second delay.

.
http://sports.betfair.com/football/marketactivity?id=1.107810478&selectionId=1222345

exactly Mr. Angry. Goal disallowed. Look at that graph and tell me there is no hoovering. It's blatant and undeniable.

1.7x to 1.5ish. That is not customer putting their bets in slightly lower in anticipation of an attack....

Jan 2, 2013 -- 3:24PM, TheInvestor2 wrote:

.http://sports.betfair.com/football/marketactivity?id=1.107810478&selectionId=1222345exactly Mr. Angry. Goal disallowed. Look at that graph and tell me there is no hoovering. It's blatant and undeniable.

I liken 'hoovering' to UFO's, tbh.

Call it years of watching graphs, flow of money.

I have seen this graph before.  I've seen it in horse racing dozens of times.

I have seen it at off's when a horse has drifted and just prior to in-running, someone who has laid at (example prices) 5.1 and the price has drifted out to 6.4.  They will then back "Down to" 5.20 to close their bet and will grab everything from 6.2 down to 5.20 till filled.

I have "seen" layers poised over tennis who have laid thousands and at even a hint of a goal going against their position, will hit the button to grab everything down to a price.  If it breaks through, the spike appears.  As well, people assume it is one person.  It is not.

Also, if people suddenly pull money out of the market, a spike will appear as people OR bots chase to fill.

CANCEL is instantaneous and quick to do.  If you think a play is going against you, don't watch the television, hit the button.  You can always go back into the market.

.

Also, players call this hoovering.

Question: if you don't want a position matched, why are you leaving it up?

Nope shapeshifter, doesn't happen in big football matches. A 2.5 goals market NEVER goes from 1.7x to 1.5 within a second just because a few people 'pull money from the market' or other technical reasons. It only happens when people with a fast feed know what has happened before betfair suspend the market.

Question: if you don't want a position matched, why are you leaving it up?

Do you have no understanding of the need for management of the football markets?

Because the odds move so dramatically if there is a goal/penalty/red card, Betfair pledge to attempt to suspend betting when it appears that one of those three has occurred.

We leave bets up that we want taken, assuming that the score/red card is as it currently stands. We don't want those bets taken if the score changes!!

The hoovering in the Liverpool game was blatant. Betfair have to do something about this, otherwise the markets will suffer.

Not sure which goals that graph is referring to, Investor, but the first 2 Liverpool goals were from breakaway attacks - both looked dead cert goals.  So possibly not hoovering.

Not sure about the disallowed goals - wasn't watching.

Jan 2, 2013 -- 3:46PM, TheInvestor2 wrote:

Nope shapeshifter, doesn't happen in big football matches. A 2.5 goals market NEVER goes from 1.7x to 1.5 within a second just because a few people 'pull money from the market' or other technical reasons. It only happens when people with a fast feed know what has happened before betfair suspend the market.

I think that might come down to 'in-play' strategy. 

I tend to trade 3.5 market a lot.  I have seen 'anticipation' (usually layers pulling bets out rather than backers coming down). 

I think those betting larger sums play the 1X2 market thus the push to match X K's is more blatant than me hob-nobbing in the 3.5.

Mr Angry,



The graph is the over 3.5 odds. The spike down from 1.78 to 1.5ish occurred in about the 73rd minute when Liverpool put the ball in the net, but it was subsequently disallowed (offside). This wasn't a breakaway attack.

Mr.Angry 02 Jan 13 21:56 Joined: 05 Jan 11 | Topic/replies: 3,493 | Blogger: Mr.Angry's blog
Not sure which goals that graph is referring to, Investor, but the first 2 Liverpool goals were from breakaway attacks - both looked dead cert goals.  So possibly not hoovering.

Not sure about the disallowed goals - wasn't watching.

I thought you said yourself in a earlier post there was massive hoovering in this game?

There was a disallowed goal and someone took the market from 1.7x to 1.5ish. I wasn't watching the game (wasn't even betting on it, as I was doing Chelsea and Newcastle), but just that stat tells me enough.

Jan 2, 2013 -- 3:51PM, Contrarian2 wrote:

Question: if you don't want a position matched, why are you leaving it up?Do you have no understanding of the need for management of the football markets?Because the odds move so dramatically if there is a goal/penalty/red card, Betfair pledge to attempt to suspend betting when it appears that one of those three has occurred.We leave bets up that we want taken, assuming that the score/red card is as it currently stands. We don't want those bets taken if the score changes!!

Have a very good understanding.

My point is, you have laid at 2.20 and the market is now out to 2.50.  You don't consider 2.55 value based on the score but do consider 2.20 value (as would I).  But with several ticks between you and the market, the only way I see you being matched is:

a) someone closing their position with a huge sum and having to chunk down
b) people anticipating wrongly and reaching down
c) people anticipating correctly and reaching down

Two of those positions go against you, (A) if the game turns against you and (C) if they anticipated correctly.

It happens all the time in tennis. 

The "mis-management" means Betfair not closing the market before the clock would run down.

I feel (A) creates this quite often.

Except 2.55 isn't value when the person taking your bet knows the score is different to the one where you put your money in. And the score where you expect the market to be matched at. Football is unique in terms of in-play betting and if Betfair can't manage the markets correctly, then it will suffocate the markets.

Betfair aren't refunding and said that "Due to the nature of the initial attacking move there were slightly lower odds put into the system by various customers anticipating the potential of a goal but in any case this was about 15 seconds before the penalty was given."

I've looked at the video of the 3rd goal.
71:56 Poor headed clearance
72:01 Foul on edge of penalty area.
72:03 Ref points to the spot.

Their quote of 15 seconds is rubbish.
It was at best a promising position but certainly not a clear chance.
7 seconds at the most, probably less.

Ell,

Presumably BF mean that the relevant bets were submitted 15 seconds before the penalty was given. This is possible, of course, but unlikely if you are suggesting that the ball was nowhere near the penalty area at that time.

part of the problem is they don't seem to be working off real time pictures.

it's a bit of a grey area, I'd say. for instance, say everyone's up for a late corner, someone loses possession on the edge of the box and the defending team run it up the pitch and score. if that takes six seconds and someone legitimately sees this might happen and fires in a bet right at the start of the process, is that hoovering? no - because when they bet none of the things that trigger a suspend have yet happened. but it is a reaction to a specific event.

but, what if in the above scenario BF have an 8 second delay and are working off 2 second delayed pictures themselves? and it takes the suspend mammal another second to actually hit the button? now we have a good faith sharp bet which is matched 9 seconds after the move starts on an 8 second delay. what should its status be?

I've got no solutions to that question, I'm just saying it's sometimes less clearcut than it looks.

The ball was inside the Man City half 15 seconds before the goal.
Sometimes you can see a promising build up several seconds before a goal is scored but not in this case.

If they'd said the bets were placed 15 seconds before the goal you wouldn't question it.
To give a convoluted response instead seems suspicious.

As far as I know Betfair don't actually have someone in the office who suspends they use the runningball feed to do it for them.

that's interesting, checkboxes. thanks.

sounds like they are open to "the wire" scam from The Sting if their using third party suspends

They are probably unable to view live 3pm Saturday Premiership games, the same as the rest of us.

Ell
03 Jan 13 01:25   


Betfair aren't refunding and said that "Due to the nature of the initial attacking move there were slightly lower odds put into the system by various customers anticipating the potential of a goal but in any case this was about 15 seconds before the penalty was given."

I've looked at the video of the 3rd goal.
71:56 Poor headed clearance
72:01 Foul on edge of penalty area.
72:03 Ref points to the spot.

Their quote of 15 seconds is rubbish.
It was at best a promising position but certainly not a clear chance.
7 seconds at the most, probably less.

The peoblem here is that you probably draw your conclusion from your delayed tv pictures. If your video is from digital HD pictures I wouldn't be surprised if they were as much as 5 - 8 seconds behind live and then we are close to the 15 seconds Betfair are talking about.

  Apart from that , I have no opinion on whether The Investor was hoovered or not though.

I think that

1) It's extremely unlikely that someone / some people would take such a wide range of odds merely based on a promising attack, taking out multiple markets simultaneously for bucket loads.

2) Immediately after the same thing happens at every goal in the Liverpool match, especially the disallowed one.

Anyone moving the price 20 ticks with a good chance would go broke double quick. They're blatantly placing their bets after they know what's happened. If someone is betting what must be tens of thousands overall, and doing it repeatedly on UK untelevised matches, my money is on them being a fast pic merchant rather than a lucky mug.

The City v Stoke match was on BBC radio stoke. I think Betfair might have to start actively scouting for sources like that for feeds (as I should too!).

Is it not just someone sitting in the stadium on their iphone.

'I would advise you to stay away from games you're not watching.'
____________

the pictures are delayed to start with though ,how would watching the game help ?

It can help a bit coach, for instance if my pics are as fast as Betfair's feed, and the suspend guy is 2 seconds slow, I might be able to cancel my bets before the suspend, when the goal is scored (or with the slow feed 6-8 seconds after the goal is scored real time).

But of course having a fast feed like radio is far more valuable.

not really, eddie. though the pictures were delayed, the intervals between events are obviously reliable.

so if the "promising move" started 7 seconds before the goal was scored, the 15 second quote can't stand, whatever the delay.

Jan 4, 2013 -- 5:05AM, TheInvestor2 wrote:

I think that 1) It's extremely unlikely that someone / some people would take such a wide range of odds merely based on a promising attack, taking out multiple markets simultaneously for bucket loads.2) Immediately after the same thing happens at every goal in the Liverpool match, especially the disallowed one. Anyone moving the price 20 ticks with a good chance would go broke double quick. They're blatantly placing their bets after they know what's happened. If someone is betting what must be tens of thousands overall, and doing it repeatedly on UK untelevised matches, my money is on them being a fast pic merchant rather than a lucky mug.The City v Stoke match was on BBC radio stoke. I think Betfair might have to start actively scouting for sources like that for feeds (as I should too!).

If a 'big player' is closing a position, 20 ticks is very possible. They would not go broke doing this.

ALSO: you are focused on the moment.  How was the minute/two minutes leading up to the penalty?  Would a 'big player' be tempted to close green?

My point is that if it was a big player:

1)If they were randomly putting in bets taking out 20 ticks, they will be losers for sure, and not matching me only when a goal is insta-scored.
2)If they are not doing it randomly, but during a strong attack (but before knowing what's already happened), they would still be losers I think. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and say they have some marginal edge. In that case I should be getting matched at various times when there isn't a (disallowed) goal/penalty, just a good chance 50/50 say. I'm only getting matched 20 ticks deep when I lose (as I've lost the instant the bet is matched).

investor: do you use any software? properly set up, the live charting on geeks captures hoovering visually pretty well, and a screenshot might be useful in similar cases.

Jan 4, 2013 -- 11:44AM, SHAPESHIFTER wrote:

Jan  4, 2013 -- 11:05AM, TheInvestor2 wrote:I think that 1) It's extremely unlikely that someone / some people would take such a wide range of odds merely based on a promising attack, taking out multiple markets simultaneously for bucket loads.2) Immediately after the same thing happens at every goal in the Liverpool match, especially the disallowed one. Anyone moving the price 20 ticks with a good chance would go broke double quick. They're blatantly placing their bets after they know what's happened. If someone is betting what must be tens of thousands overall, and doing it repeatedly on UK untelevised matches, my money is on them being a fast pic merchant rather than a lucky mug.The City v Stoke match was on BBC radio stoke. I think Betfair might have to start actively scouting for sources like that for feeds (as I should too!).If a 'big player' is closing a position, 20 ticks is very possible. They would not go broke doing this.ALSO: you are focused on the moment.  How was the minute/two minutes leading up to the penalty?  Would a 'big player' be tempted to close green?

Bit lucky to be closing a position right on a goal. Repeatedly.

Investor- from a hoovering point of view there is more to it than anticipating moves via digital broadcasting i guess.


This lot are probably at the ground with their i-pads  etc .

Wasn't there a group hoovering in Spain or Mexico ?  made a fair whack before getting found out .

Yeah ,it goes on - BF need a quicker feed ,can't be hard on most big games .

This lot are probably at the ground with their i-pads  etc .


thats what i said there obviously on their phones or that, it happens in tennis so often i.e courtsiding people do it for a living although, once in madrid a couple of years there were plain clothed officials posing as normal fans who then swamped on a lot of them and banned  the, cant se any clamp down in a 40,000 stadium

Jan 4, 2013 -- 4:04PM, Coachbuster wrote:

Investor- from a hoovering point of view there is more to it than anticipating moves via digital broadcasting i guess.This lot are probably at the ground with their i-pads  etc .Wasn't there a group hoovering in Spain or Mexico ?  made a fair whack before getting found out .Yeah ,it goes on - BF need a quicker feed ,can't be hard on most big games .

Quick feed? I thought that's what the x-second delay was supposed to be for. I can't see much point in the delay on most sports since the only suspend is right at the end - all the delay does is actually limit Joe Public Punter. But for football, the delay should help the punter. But if the market can't be suspended within the correct delay, then the delay should be increased.

slow suspends affects consumer confidence and some of these suspends are very slowww and i don't know why,  something needs looking at here - either the feed fed to BF is not up to scratch or operators perhaps aren't paying enough attention .

i suspect a  digital /analogue combo is (and should be) used at all times . No way are BF just reliant on digital .

If you can't beat 'em join 'em. Why can't BF have an operative or two at the ground, armed with suspend button thingys :) The suspend would happen 5/6/7 seconds before we see the reason why on tv, hoovering would be impossible. As you say Coach, slow suspends kill consumer confidence, something needs looking at.

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Investor- from a hoovering point of view there is more to it than anticipating moves via digital broadcasting i guess.


This lot are probably at the ground with their i-pads  etc .

Wasn't there a group hoovering in Spain or Mexico ?  made a fair whack before getting found out .

Yeah ,it goes on - BF need a quicker feed ,can't be hard on most big games .

Alright coach. How did you hear/find out about this group in Spain or Mexico, would like to read about that?!

Trevh. I agree, why dont betfair have their own suspend operative at the ground? And if they do use the scouts from Runningball at grounds instead, why isn't the message that theres been a goal/pen/red card, getting through to Betfair in order to suspend before all the markets get hoovered?!

Gazza , it was in the news some months ago now -i'm sure someone on here can remember it .

might have even been been south America

There was clear hoovering in copa america and there used to be clear hoovering in the primera, so it's not 'or' it's both!

There are a few solutions:
1. Betfair get fast feeds (live / someone at the ground)
2. Betfair introduce a post-cancelling system ("unmatching" matched bets with x seconds of the suspend.
3. Don't leave bets up.

I would add
4. Dedicate 2 people to suspend duty. That would probably halve the problems.

Also always use radio. For instance for the Man City v Stoke match, BBC radio Stoke had it on. Betfair should be able to find a way to get that.

-------------
3. Is a no go. I bet money at virtually every tick at market.

I agree with investor. This isn't the hooverer's fault - all they're doing is finding an edge that we're all trying to get, just that there's is slightly more immoral. And this isn't other punter's fault - you should be able to leave money up with confidence. It's Betfair's task to find a solution, be that find a method to suspend as quickly as possible and as accurately as possible, but secondly leave a suspend long enough that covers their own delay.

It's Betfair's task to find a solution, be that find a method to suspend as quickly as possible and as accurately as possible, but secondly leave a suspend long enough that covers their own delay.

It's been happening for years.  Betfair have tightened up, to their credit.

In the meantime, despite the rights or wrongs of it, how long can you keep leaving prices up for the market sweepers to steal?  That's why is the only way to protect.

How long?

I've really curtailed my in-play betting on football - for various reason. But one because I keep getting stung by something akin to hoovering. Yes, it's really hit my profits because despite the hoovering I was making money on football but it's also reduced the silly errors I was making which enabled the hoovering to hit me.

i've seen it before.

why is it that they are now beating an 8 sec delay when we used to have a 5 sec (even less maybe ) ?  why weren't they beating the clock a lot more before now ?

EE broadband mobile?

Pics are more delayed these days than ever, plus it can't be too far from the imagination that some of the suspend guys are getting back handers for getting it wrong, or not wrong, just a few secs out.  Must be minimum wage kind of job so a few of them will be ripe for getting at.

analogue is dying that will slow things down.

2. Betfair introduce a post-cancelling system ("unmatching" matched bets with x seconds of the suspend.


Yeah, I think this is exactly what's needed. I'm not quite sure how this would work, but I suppose that a bet would hit the market (after the usual bet delay period), and then if it hits an opposing bet at the same odds, would display as 'provisionally matched'. Then, after the post-cancel delay period, it would display as 'matched'. At this point, of course, even if a goal is scored, the bets stand.

"If a 'big player' is closing a position, 20 ticks is very possible. They would not go broke doing this."

I can guarantee you, they would go broke

TheVis : plus it can't be too far from the imagination that some of the suspend guys are getting back handers for getting it wrong, or not wrong, just a few secs out.  Must be minimum wage kind of job so a few of them will be ripe for getting at.

That's never entered my mind but I have to agree, yes that is entirely possible.

That's never entered my mind but I have to agree, yes that is entirely possible.

That, and backhanders to broadcast personnel for access to streams.

Yes, there is no doubt a serious amount of money involved so corruption at some level is almost certainly happening.

Jan 5, 2013 -- 6:54PM, [x] These checkboxes suck wrote:

"If a 'big player' is closing a position, 20 ticks is very possible. They would not go broke doing this."I can guarantee you, they would go broke

Lay team 1.80 £30000 

market moves out to 2.40

Layer decides to close completely.   Targets 2.00 to grab everything from 2.40 down to 2.00 plugging 27,000 into the market

Minimum profit if matched down to 2.00 = 3,000

^
The question is why would they not get out over a period of say 1-2 minutes and get an average price close to market 2.4, instead of the nonsensically poor one they get taking out the market dozens of ticks deep? In a decent match with good liquidity it just doesn't make sense to behave like that.

Haven't been following football markets the last month or so but before that 364 seemed to suspend well before betfair regularly. believe a lot of gambling companies use the same feed so unsure why other firms can suspend quicker than here.

"Haven't been following football markets the last month or so but before that 364 seemed to suspend well before betfair regularly. believe a lot of gambling companies use the same feed so unsure why other firms can suspend quicker than here."

Incentives...
at other firms the firm gets screwed on late suspends
here the customer gets screwed, so other chap makes a profit and betfair probably make 5-60% of this.

Jan 6, 2013 -- 1:46PM, TheInvestor2 wrote:

^ The question is why would they not get out over a period of say 1-2 minutes and get an average price close to market 2.4, instead of the nonsensically poor one they get taking out the market dozens of ticks deep? In a decent match with good liquidity it just doesn't make sense to behave like that.

TheInvestor2.  It is a simple example of where a trader can leave up his money 2.40 and above BUT if he is watching the match and/or deciding it is time to close off, he will close out.

I have seen individuals work this way.  So I find that on this thread, posters are dismissing this strategy since they feel it isn't 'profitable' in the long term. 

Players that employ this tactic don't use it ALL THE TIME.  It is just one move to close out.

Posters on this thread seem to be too rigid in their thinking.  They are also assuming the spike is caused by one person reacting in a certain way. 

I, myself, use it for horse racing/in -running.  I will lay a position then set prices to close.  If, while watching the race, I feel it is not unfolding the way I thought (pace, dangers not performing as expected, fallers, etc), I will fire a price in that will obtain a percentage profit but will sometimes cut through the prices to get matched. 

SHAPESHIFTER
seen it all since 2003

Jan 6, 2013 -- 1:46PM, TheInvestor2 wrote:

^ The question is why would they not get out over a period of say 1-2 minutes and get an average price close to market 2.4, instead of the nonsensically poor one they get taking out the market dozens of ticks deep? In a decent match with good liquidity it just doesn't make sense to behave like that.

"In a decent match with good liquidity it just doesn't make sense to behave like that."

It does if you are watching a match and feel the momentum has the potential of turning against your position

The number of times I have been watching a football game or a tennis match and feel it is time to close out is numerous.  Sometimes I am right, relieved as a goal goes in literally seconds after I have closed out.  Other times, yes, I could have rode it out for more profit but a steady green book from event to event is still a profit.

^if you're playing with those kinds of money giving up that many ticks due to a sense of match "momentum" would seem like a bit of an unlikely mistake to make.

unless you're just incredibly loaded and playing at it, I guess.

Trading - v - gambling

Today, I traded for a fraction when the momentum changed.

If you have a chance, watch the replay on ATR of CHEPSTOW 3:00

Lady Bridget was slogged its way through the first 14 furlongs of a two miler.  It was like watching a car with a broken gear box. 

Then, with two furlongs left, on only his fifth or sixth ride to date, Jake Hodson settled the horse and converted the energy into momentum around the final bend.

I had a lay averaging 3.40.  I hit a % at BACK and caught numbers ranging from 40.00 (a few pence) down to 5's because the market sawtoothed.

I looked at my graph after and fraction matches had gone up to 80 though the core was in the high 20's in-running.

Bottom line: I went in with the gamble but when the 'momentum' switched, I closed out with over a furlong to go.

And if you had seen the graph, you would have seen mine and others pushing the price from 30's into 5's while the eventual winner was 4th moving into 3rd.  Anticipation.

No, it wasn't 30K but I avoided a full hit which is a good thing.

I live to fight another day.  This is the beauty of an exchange.

Sure in horse racing where the odds can change massively and legitimately from second to second... Doesn't happen in football (as the market should be suspended for goals, red cards etc.)

Was about to post the same response Investor, entirely different to taking poor value prices in order to green up.

I know what you mean though Shapeshifter, but like others have said I don't think anyone regularly doing that in football markets would make much if any money.

Shapeshifter,

There's little point in comparing IR racing to IR football, as far as these sorts of odds movements are concerned. In 99.x% of the time, highly liquid IR football markets, like the one under discussion, move in roughly straight lines, with a tick or two of movement deviation. Your putative trader, looking to close out, or open a position because he had detected a change in momentum would know this, and therefore know that a large bet placed 4 ticks deep into the market, say, would very quickly get matched. The only reason to sweep everything from 1.8 down to 1.5, say, as happened on Saturday in the Liverpool match, is if you know that you have about 1 second to do so (because you're trying to beat the Betfair suspend!).

Fair enough.  I know earlier my 'sarcasm' was also sincere saying that I compare it to U.F.O's. 

I have also seen 'spikes' in football and/or bets being canceled on the lay side (instantaneous) when something is happening. 

re: my post - more the distinction between 'gambling' and using intuition to 'trade'.

in practice there's so little that can happen in a football match which will make taking everything from 2.4 down to 2.0 a legitimate move without also causing a suspension and market reformation.

obviously, horse racing is different.

If a quick-pic player sees a goal scored, ball in the net, places bet, goal disallowed, Betfair DON'T suspend, we will see the kind of swings mentioned here.

yeah of course, but we see the swings also when: quick-pic player sees a goal scored, ball in the net, places bet, goal disallowed, Betfair DO suspend.

Which is what happened in the Liverpool match.

a radio is essential i am finding ,used to bet blind and wonder why i had ££s hoovered before a goal ,usually a dangerous free kick  etc

You know what...a few things have emerged over the past decade:

a) people expect everything for free ("FACEBOOK PUT ADS ON THE RIGHT COLUMN OF MY PAGE!!!!" they cried).  They boast about abilities to download music and films for free.  Well, as someone that has been involved in music since 1981, I can tell you that the 'free music you download'...actually sounds like crap compared to how it really sounds (sorry, too tired to explain compression/limiting and mastering).

b) people expect the internet to be flawless.  They expect platforms to run perfectly 24 hours a day.  they expect their 'demand' television to be there whenever they want it.  They expect Betfair never to be down or go down (people scream when an outage costs them (I lost 70% of a small bank once - I just don't expose myself as much-lesson learnt).   They are awfully quiet when they profited).

c) and they expect those who have their 'finger on the buzzer' to be 'perfect'.

In 1999, I had $50,000 U.S. in play with margin when I lost my feed from Montreal that went to Houston and back to the NASDAQ Floor.  By the time I got from my desk to the phone to make a trade directly, I lost thousands.

Though they couldn't reimburse me, I did get some of my transaction charges dropped. 

Still, the reality was that feeds went down.

That said, yes, betfair do have a responsibility to keep track of the situation 'frame by frame' and look at the situation.  But anyone that has been involved with a horse race that wasn't suspended properly due to a technical hitch knows it takes ten to fifteen minutes to sort then conciliate then post the decision.

Could they do that during a football match?  Not a chance. 

This platform will never be perfect.  But if you add up the number of suspends, goals, whatever during the year, I think the number of times there has been a slip up (human or technical) is equivalent to a blip.

Sorry, betfair, like most technology, will not be perfect.  The alternative to the internet - small pieces of paper that go through a scanner and can be crumpled up when things don't go your way.

It does if you are watching a match and feel the momentum has the potential of turning against your position


That may have been what happened I wasn't following the market but it's extremely rare for someone to shift a football market 20 ticks to close out their position, even more rare for that person to be profitable if they do it on a regular basis

The betfair delay on the India/England ODI (5 secs) is at least 3 seconds too short. Obviously no suspends, but hoovering on every wicket or boundary.

DonNo1 - what people don't factor when they see these 'valley's' is that watching these football matches are players who have bricks of lays on those 20 ticks.

When THE LAYERS see the momentum swing, the CANCEL their positions instantaneously leaving no floor.  If, at the same time, someone has hit their "green out / fill all" or any combination, it will reach down. 

As well:

Some bots are still programmed that if they see volume or prices disappear, they trigger to close "at any price"

The other thing is when there are spikes in the action, people assume it is ONE person and one person alone making a move.  This is rarely the case.

Watch a tennis match.  Long rally or an indicator that the point will swing the odds, CANCEL buttons are hit from Toronto to Asia.

Yes, not the same as football but a similar "reaction".

The betfair delay on the India/England ODI (5 secs) is at least 3 seconds too short. Obviously no suspends, but hoovering on every wicket or boundary.

On the Sky pics.

That's because Sky is way behind.

Erm, I know that Darlo...as it is on the football. Point is, maybe the delay should reflect that. If it's 8 seconds on the Sky football, reckon it should be the same in the cricket. Just another example of fast pics/people at the ground beating the delay.

The extent of the delay won't help in a non-managed market like cricket unless you cancel your bets. My Sky is sometimes a minute behind live coverage. You can't possibly have a minute delay on betting.

The lesson is you can't rely on "live" pictures to be live. You have to work out your own delay.

Sky 409 about 6 seconds behind the analogue radio for the ODI.

My Sky is sometimes a minute behind live coverage

Surely not?

I don't use it to bet. I get the Sky through an XBox and via internet connection hence why it's so slow. Cricket it's normally about a ball or two behind, but I've noticed in football that a goal has been scored and I don't see it for another minute.

SHAPESHIFTER 11 Jan 13 00:20 Joined: 04 Apr 03 | Topic/replies: 2,558 | Blogger: SHAPESHIFTER's blog
You know what...a few things have emerged over the past decade:

[...]

This platform will never be perfect.  But if you add up the number of suspends, goals, whatever during the year, I think the number of times there has been a slip up (human or technical) is equivalent to a blip.

Sorry, betfair, like most technology, will not be perfect.  The alternative to the internet - small pieces of paper that go through a scanner and can be crumpled up when things don't go your way.

Unfortunately though, a single one of these blips can cost me on average more than a week's profit (if I don't get a refund which in fairness, I have done in almost every case).

I believe these slip ups are happening in more than 1% of big football matches (almost certainly more in small ones), which in my opinion is crazy high. Then recently we had 2 of the big matches in 2 days where it happened. Betfair should strive to get that down to less than 1/1,000 and be ultra vigilant recovering money from (football) hooverers. I would be able to quadruple stakes on many matches if I could be confident I wasn't going to get ripped off.

TheInvestor2.  Do you have an account manager?

definite late suspend and hoovering on second chelsea goal today.

Yes I saw the slow suspend viva, easily more than 5 seconds behind radio, but I wasn't hoovered and couldn't see any evidence of it in graphs. Did you get done viva?

Yes Shapeshifter, got a meeting next week, will see if I can get some more evidence together, and make some suggestions, ask questions etc.

I have provided evidence in the past.  It was swept under the carpet.

Two points:

a) 5 seconds behind radio would work within the delay.

b) If a third party is being used to 'trigger' the 'suspend' (i.e. Running Ball), it would need constant supervision and review by Betfair to avoid third party fraud.

c) the only way I can see 'big players' (and Betfair (on behalf of their clients) if they are using a third party) protecting themselves would be to collectively come up with an independent way to 'time stamp' goals.

Until then, it is 'buyer beware' or increasing the delay OR...

Increasing the delay if the bet is above a certain threashold (i.e. 8 seconds UNDER £xxx / or 8 seconds for the portion under the threashold and 10 seconds for the balance above the threashold.

Yes, there is the possibility of designing some kind of automated suspend, triggered when certain patterns of bets are fired.  That would be very very effective, though would take some time to define and tune the algorithm.

Not "SUSPEND" - Just limit the amount a person can fire in at once under 8 seconds.  It will make hoovering on football less attractive.

What about giving betfair users themselves the possibility to "vote" for a suspend.  If there is a quorum of votes then the match gets suspended automatically.  If you use your vote frivolously then it gets taken away.

What about giving betfair users themselves the possibility to "vote" for a suspend.  If there is a quorum of votes then the match gets suspended automatically.  If you use your vote frivolously then it gets taken away

An interesting idea, but, I fear, massively open to abuse.

Jan 14, 2013 -- 2:20PM, Contrarian2 wrote:

What about giving betfair users themselves the possibility to "vote" for a suspend.  If there is a quorum of votes then the match gets suspended automatically.  If you use your vote frivolously then it gets taken awayAn interesting idea, but, I fear, massively open to abuse.

Um, abuse is an understatement.

a revolution is coming! the tables are starting to turn

Jan 14, 2013 -- 3:46PM, RioGrande wrote:

a revolution is coming! the tables are starting to turn

Double zero....the table is now open.

SHAPESHIFTER     Joined: 04 Apr 03
Replies: 2574 13 Jan 13 18:31 
Not "SUSPEND" - Just limit the amount a person can fire in at once under 8 seconds.  It will make hoovering on football less attractive.


Your quoted suggestion seems to be in effect to allow the hoovering of managed markets upon a material event occurring on some occasions but to limit the amount any individual can submit to those markets within the standard bet placement delay.

Regardless of any objections on principle, I would observe that there appear to be some practical flaws with your suggestion.

Firstly, unless £xxx varies with price, the use of xxx certainly isn't sufficient in itself to indicate that the limit would vary with price, there is a huge variation in the potential takeout.  To the parties concerned, I suspect that the hoovering of £xxx @ 50 on the draw when a late injury time equalizer is scored would be of rather more significance than the hoovering of £xxx @ 1.01 on the leading team as a result of that team scoring an additional goal.

In addition, you stated just limit the amount a person can fire in at once under 8 seconds. I'll presume that by at once, you mean over a set period of time of perhaps 1-2 seconds. If not, your suggestion would be rendered almost completely useless by the ability of a single user to submit, with the use of technology, a great number of bets of £xxx within a fraction of a second.

Regardless of how successfully any individual limit of £xxx could be applied, that limit would do little for the losing party or parties if multiple bets of £xxx, submitted upon a material event by different parties, hit the market before it was suspended.

Ignoring the hoovering issue and again based on the assumption that by at once you meant within a set time period, your suggestion would also seem to disadvantage the larger players against customers submitting smaller bets.

Multiple smaller players would have up to, depending on feed delay, the set time period referred to above to gain queue position on anyone who wished to submit a bet greater than £xxx. That would not be welcomed by the larger players and would likely result in less liquidity.

Where bf are not confident that they can consistently suspend managed markets within the set bet placement delay upon a material event occurring live but are confident that they can suspend those markets within an additional 2 seconds of such an event on the overwhelming majority of occasions, I would suggest that it would be a better idea to increase the bet placement delay by 2 seconds in those markets or if possible utilise a faster feed.