After all these threads on pc charge whats changed ?

do you know how long it take to move 1/4 millions dollars, from 1 betting site to another

A few clicks of a botton...??

Betfairs share price.

This has certainly changed:

Last Week25/07/11 - 31/07/11
Gross PL    £    0.00   
Commission Generated    £    0.00    +
Other Charges    £    0.00    +
                  
Total Charges    £    0.00   
Total Charges    %    0.00   
Max possible Premium Charge    £    0.00   
Premium Charge [pre-allowance]    £    0.00   
Available allowance    £    0.00   
Premium Charge Applied    £    0.00   
Remaining allowance    £    0.00

the exchange is the same as it always has been ...

theres no liquidity anywhere else .......   nothing changed

really was hoping this time  with pc2 but looks like there too strong

I've had about 15% more bets matched on purple recently

Rs1, it surely depends how and what you trade.

For me, I can replicate most of what I did here elsewhere for a fraction of the cost. As Rocket mentions, Purple matching is getting easier gradually, this takes time.

A few clicks of a botton...??

and you have to wait on till your bank rings or email and say " we put a stop on you $250k bank wire, and now are just check to see if this was really you who made this wire" 

i only do in play  footy .... purple doesn't even have anything  there most the time and even worse it doesn't even offer all the market s!

old firm matches have plenty and if u r a layer like me you can get on quite a bit of other footy games - not as much as bf but when u consider the commision difference!!!!

The difference in the comparison of matched amounts per race has been huge. Obviously they are calculated in a different way over the road, but they also were when they were NOWHERE NEAR the amounts matched here - now they are always close, often in front. A huge swing.

The penny has dropped with most folk now, you only get what you pay or are charged for and if you want the highest profits possible from the giant of exchanges then moaning or running away to lesser alternatives produces 100% nil reward

or 10% of comparable liquidity at the duckpond

Ah, Captain Snorey, right on cue.

Saying 10% comparable liquidity is bending the truth. It depends on how you play the markets.

If you are a pre-race backer/layer on horses, you have no problem getting decent sums matched over there, just as easily as here.

Top league match odds footy the same, as is tennis slams, masters events and so on.

You cant just say they have no liquidity without being specific. As for in-play, it has improved but I do agree with Rs1 that there needs to be more markets in football.

Even if you just adapted the markets you can play form here to there, its a big cost-saver, so why deny it? What is your real agenda?

Given his username, joining date and the fact that he is endlessly on the forum putting one side of one debate, I would say that's pretty transparent funkymonkey.

i have no agenda ...
its just that after seeing thread after thread about pc2 ... nothing for me has changed ....


inplay footy is cack at quack ...

i go into a few matches .... most aren't even offered anywhere else only here

inplay footy not changed at all .... don't know about the horses aint looked

As low as 2% commission on 102% over-rounds, ten fold liquidity of nearest competition and only 20% basic premium charge and 60% for high gain users making the megabucks, still stacks up as the leader in the betting world and haven't they done so well for over 10 years now, well done betfair if I ever get on the pc2 rate they can have my charge payments with pleasure because they deserve every penny for being the best!

Yes, you are probably right Gerard.

who is this dunce bf fantastic .... he aint a newbie

Rs1, the agenda comment was not to you, sorry for confusion.

I was referring to Bf_fanatic and his constant pro-premium charge trolling.

why is he doing that


... 60 percent is a joke .... a  real bad one


its not fair for people like me ... i have no fast pics , cheat etc ....

23,s on the other one 21,s here, tiger woods price on wgc, isolated example i know but the "giant of the exchanges" is lacking here.
Why? pc very probably isn,t making it viable for golf market makers to be more competitive.
In answer to original question what,s changed,my betfair points,simply because of the above example shows the are alternatives out there,and up to a month or so lethargy was the only reason stopping me.

I am the very guy that betfair was designed for, an information guru, the betfair exchange model offers me the best chance of reaping the best profits even after all charges, I want to deal with a betting company that can handle not only my potential liquidity but my profit making skills,If I thought my future actions would damage or hurt the revenues of the company then I wouldn't be happy with my activity.I don't want to bite the hand that feeds me but to co-exist and if betfair had a problem with me and other high gain users I hop they would address the problem promptly in whichever fashion works best for the exchange model, I have faith in them and respect there ideals !

You do know that the ratio of average users liquidity to pro-traders/bettors at the duckpond is poorer so any newbies or mugs will get creamed off pretty quickly at the duckpond as there double exchange playing, so tread carefully if you move over, there is safety in numbers at betfair another fact that is overlooked by the average punter!

In fact I wonder what shape the duckponds revenues are in now that the tentacles that dip in betfairs are also in the duckponds only there unchecked, anyone care to project that long term effect?

After converting matched amounts of both sites to same method, the other one on average was matching just under 10% pre PC3, last week it was just over 20%.

so I want to lay a horse at 6.2 today. I look on Bf, price is 6.2. I look on the duck, its also 6.2 but with a fraction of the costs.

How am I getting creamed off please?

I have worked out my price in advance, decided 6.2 is value, found it offered in 2 places, and one has vastly better incentives to actually place it. Very simple choice.

Safety in numbers is what losers believe in.

'I am .. an information guru’

'my potential liquidity’

'my profit making skills’

Pure comedy gold

That 20p in your account is gonna grow and grow!  Like a weed.  I can feel it.  If only you’d stop posting on the forum, you’d be a millionaire!

Can,t agree with your 14.29 statement bf fanatic, joe punter backs woods at 23,s for £10,return 230,pays £5.50 comm at the moment leaving£225.50 and  does same here returns £210 pays £10 comm return £200, quite a big difference and that would be a recreational player.

Hazel, stop dealing in facts please - nothing has changed, it never will, move on, nothing to see......[;)]

Betfar share price dipped below £6 today, oh no, not another fact.  sorry gerad.  I will go back to sleep.

i really was hoping some pressure would come from somewhere and they would have to step down from pc2

it was  a small hope ... i think a lot of work would gone into pc2 and they know its viable for them to charge it as we can't do anything about it an got now where to go

The share price dropping is not a great concern just means betfair can buy shares back and those that bought them have lost 60%, ah the money just keeps rolling in

who says buying back shares is running out of good ideas for a company, betfair never stop having good ideas when it comes to profits

There is much method in there madness, thats why I love them so much[;)]

bf_fananatic     02 Aug 11 14:24 
I am the very guy that betfair was designed for, an information guru, the betfair exchange model offers me the best chance of reaping the best profits even after all charges, I want to deal with a betting company that can handle not only my potential liquidity but my profit making skills


the exchange was designed for guys who have  a bet and pay commission

have you paid any commission since you joined the forum or are you too busy posting full time 537 posts in 16 days all on the same subject which will never affect you

don't even reply to him

hes a full time troll

gerbs sorry to keep constantly correcting people and you for there endless mistakes but when you create a forum name the date that appears next to "joined" is actually the date one has joined the forum, I have had an account for 3 years but not stupid enough to start betting until I reach my goals, This requires super-human dedication and work, my portfolio for racing prediction software is both rich and varied, and my only other interest is in assuring people that the platform I an they use is in good fiscal shape and its policies on winners is the correct one, success for me on here isnt a question of "if" but when and I wont be silly enough to bite the hand that feeds me or move over to the duckpond with its less than 10% liquidity that is now attracting the sharks from betfair as a side dish to snap up the sardines that inhabit it!

Seems you,re right lads.

bff, there may be some truth in your point that the shark/mug ratio may be higher at the purple at the moment, but why would that matter to anyone wanting to have a bet and the prices are the same both places with lower commission at the purple ?

i did not ask you if you had paid any commission since you joined betfair i asked since you joined the forum


are you saying you have had this account for 3 years and have not had a bet in that time

I'll bite bf fanatic.

If I drive my car and stop to get fuel and there are two garages, one charges £1.35p a litre and the one 50 yards up the road charges £1.36. Which garage will I go to?

I'm not a horse racing punter but I'm quite impressed with the liquidity at Betquack when I looked today. They would be a cheaper option for virtually anyone on here, PC player or not. I honestly believe that Betfair's demise has started but it will take a long time to happen and won't happen in the next few months but the wheels are in motion.

Sooner or later the customers that buy their fuel at £1.36 a litre will have to ask themselves why they do it when they can get exactly the same product for 1p a litre cheaper?

GOM
If the petrol quality is the same at both, then obviously you would be crazy to pay the higher price.
But until the quality gets the same, there will be many prepared to pay a premium for the better product won't there ?
Btw as a general observation on Bff, it would seem quite apparent to any reasonable, objective observer that he has let his emotions run a bit out on control on this whole matter.
He is starting on occasion to sound as mad as a meat-axe.
But he is never really rude or overly abusive to anybody, unless perhaps he is sorely and deliberately provoked.
Therefore I would suggest that some of you, if you can't be civilised or reasonably polite to him, just ignore him completely.
It just demeans you to treat him with utter contempt, and just shows what some of you really stand for.
That is you just want the status quo to continue so that you can continue to game the exchange to your own self interests. You really have no interest in the overall future general health of the exchange.

Betfair is still the best GET ON MASSIVE, even if have to pay £1.36 is still better for us.

ok  GOM nice little post but lets show the true picture. If your a mega-user on betfair and lets say you have a car and the petrol is a lot cheaper at another gas station say £1 instead of £1.36 but you can only buy 4 litre per day, whereas the other station lets you have 40 litre per day and you really need the petrol to do your well paid job, then having a petty mind costs you a hell of alot of money


Also the duckpond are falsely representing there liquidity, for every £1 in a matched dog race its really the same as 17p at betfair matched and horse races are worse, 8p .

Also the reason they dont have as many markets or products is because there isn't enough TOTAL liquidity to go round the site.

Yet again another brainless post from persons that do no real research and have no real objective except slagging betfair off.

sensible comment ballabriggs

The daq  are out of the top 11 in the betting are higher in price on no less than 6,the same price on 4 and less on 1 on one of the biggest golf tournaments of the year.Bf, doesn,t sound as if mugs and newbies have to be careful of the so called sharks.
Sensible posts here mostly saying the consumer should be getting the most for their pound and instead being fed speil of boogeymen.

Eggman
A Beatles fan at least I trust ?

FAFH, you mention often about people having self interest and not caring about the overall big picture of the exchange model.

What exactly is it you do that is not of self interest in relation to your activities on here, which adds value to the collective?

wow thats a cool question to put to the frog but i know his answer will be better[;)]

As one of the un-researched idiots on here and quite brainless I am stupid enough to keep on laying a team I think won't win, hopefully cashing in and not paying more than 2.5 percent commish.  But then I am a silly billy.

If you did stroll over to the duckpond who do you think will be waiting to match your bet the first, other newbies or certain mega-beasts that have there tentacles in both betfair and the duckpond only in the duckpond there un-checked, un-p-charged and consuming all the pondlife over there?

^^ Doesn,t matter if best price available.

But your not doing to a high level or you would be doing it at both sites to increse your turnover, and you wont get all the footie markets that betfair offer as there isnt enough liquidity to fuel as many markets, have fun

So if only a few more low spenders or low achievers leave for the duckpond and the mega-beasts stay or dual use both exchanges how will that affect betfair, seems like betfair stand to make a hell of a lot more money than the duckpond, and thats what is best for an exchange to keep promoting in the future, making more and better markets and new products, entertaining a small sectors recreational choice isn't high on betfairs hit-list of goals.

This simply isn't the case, already several games have had very decent liquidity but some others won't have enough for me - we will have to see if that changes - it may not -
and I am using both sites of course
I am a long time full timer on here and quite happy to look at other options
I am mainly a layer of football matches and occasional trade the correct scores.
I commit quite large amounts when appropriate.
I was wondering what you(bff) bet on.

FINE AS FROG HAIR
02 Aug 11 16:09 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 3,784 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
Eggman
A Beatles fan at least I trust ?

I actually quite enjoy fananatic’s posts - some of them are ‘fananatastic’!  Even you have to admire his/her posts on Betfair’s share price.

I did enjoy your ‘at least’.  Did amuse me.  But unfortunately no, not a massive fan of The Beatles, more of an admirer, but do have an occasional listen, and my name is based on that song.  I think my favourite is ‘I Want You (She’s So Heavy)’.  If you haven’t heard it, I do recommend it.  Of course, this is only my opinion...

I don't bet on anything at the moment but I do lay peoples doubts to rest and back good ideas. Football is very popular on sports betting now and surely you like the wider range of football markets that the duckpond cant open for fear of diluted liquidity that is all ready super-sized to make it look respectable with a matched figure that represents total winnings and exposure figure and not the matched stake value, very naughty practice over at the duckpond.

Oh sorry I didn't realise you don't bet.  As long as I can bet and get matched I am happy - where ever that may be. I was wondering that if you don't bet then how would you know if you can get a bet on say an old firm game on saturday lunchtime and get matched at a decent price  elsewwhere

Because I read endless posts about people complaining about the lack of markets in duckpond, especially football, still if people want a second rated service then a tick in the comms rate will draw them in and if you cant stand the heat then perhaps the best exchange isn't for you.

surprised your posting on here though or is the class of forum user better also whaich makes me wonder how bad they must be over there

Well it hasn't been my experience for the games I was interested and what I do.  I am still well involved in both and we will see how it all pans out.  It is slightly odd to have u say about standing the heat when you don't actually bet yourself
I must go now as the footy is starting and I have to put some bets on
nice talking to you

stop spoiling the thread bf fantastic ...

they got a monopoly an are doing as they please ... if every company did that you wouldn't be so 'excited'

like i said i was hoping something would have changed ...

think horses slightly touch better but footy there is 0 difference

A genuine question to bf_fananatic:

If you could magically click your fingers which instantly made **** (or another site like Weetabix, m@tchbook etc) be betfairs equal in-terms of liquidity and customer pool would you do it?

**** = purple

I dont need magic, we have betfair

hes a troll who does not use the site for betting

Dogs today 103% Betfair, 101% the Daq.

....ones3-5% the other2.5% limited period, no brainer, be very afraid Betfair!

I haven't paid PC (the 20% one) since January, when I paid about £4k. I'm not due to pay PC2 for a while, now on 23% charges generated.

My betting turnover on football outside of Betfair was mainly due to PC:

    Turnover
Oct-10    £5,855.50
Nov-10    £10,076.00
Dec-10    £16,290.00
Jan-11    £29,658.00
Feb-11    £40,822.15
Mar-11    £293.05
Apr-11    £4,940.00

I've since gone back to 100% Betfair as I'm only paying commission.

If Betfair looked at my account history, they would see my activity going up and up regardless of the increase in charges.

What they can't see though, is that the % of my overall betting with Betfair decreases as % charges increase.

They really are killing future growth in favour of current profits. None of the above was with purple by the way, mainly with pinny.

I did a test during the world cup and made about £550 on purple versus about £8k here. I had a much bigger balance on bf though (about 10x as much) and was obviously prioritising betfair due to higher profit expectancy. The gap is closing.

duckponds  liquidity after 10 years competing is less than 8% of betfairs with a massive catchup to do in market range and products, how long will they need to get even near, 10,20,30 years

Betfair is still the first choice for most betting exchange users, believe what you want and ignore the facts but don't complain about a charge you all are probably never going to be good enough to pay!

How long they will need depends on Betfair more than themselves.
Betfair is still first choice for me, and still would be even if I was on 40%. They certainly wouldn't be getting 100% of my business though, I would estimate more like 60-75%. That is good news for their competitor.

Your comment about 'probably never being good enough to pay', just shows how you are ready to come out with nonsense without ascertaining the facts. Or perhaps you know something I don't and Betfair is already preparing a u-turn on this charge?

To be fair though, that's exactly what Betfair told me when the original PC was introduced, just a couple of months before I started paying it!

Im not doubting that competition will hot up but if you were betfair would you not be tempted to apply
such charges, after all quite a large group have been having it off with everyones cash for years now
and there doing it not fairly but with bots, in my view charges should be more based on the amounts of bets placed and volume instead of just profit volume total, the bots make hundreds of bets compared to
a single user and hammer the servers, not really the saintly liquidity providers they posture to be but
the cause of all the charges !

Bff
Now I know the reasons why you are not into grammar and spelling, but believe me if you did perhaps just try occasionally to use " they're " or " their" as and when appropriate, and not the perennial " there", you might just in fact deflate a few of your critics.
Small things do appeal to small minds you know.
Also cut back on the quantity of your posts, you're doing your cause more harm than good in overposting in a repetitive fashion.
Just trying to help. Don't shoot the messenger now.

ok fafh ,I value your opinion as you seem to have a balanced outlook, I will take notice of this messenger [:)]

I think Betfair would do a lot better if they made a commitment to stable pricing, allowing for long term planning on the part of its winning customers.

I agree, I am not even sure how the pc2 is calculated as when they mention lifetime commission already paid does that include the pc1 that anyone at the £250,000 will of paid plenty of, does the total amount won include or exclude the pc1 amount, not very clear in its conditions in the t&c

I am surprised it hasn't been amended yet to clarify the conditions of the rate that applies to each customer

The Investor
I would think that BF would also like a more stable pricing structure, if only for their own cash flow forecasting purposes.
But is the exchange business model itself actually stable yet ?.
Probably they are finding that that discover one example of opportunistic, unfair betting and another reveals itself.
They do seem still to be more reactive than proactive.
I remember somebody once telling me that if you want to profit on a newly formed stock exchange in third world country, then simply get a copy of the NYSE handbook of rules and regulations and apply the opposite. That is virtually every rule has been written to close a loophole after it has already appeared and been exploited materially.

+ -- that they discover --- '

Going back to the original post.  I believe it will be a while before any noticeable change is made.  For the value punters amongst us, drip feeding into 2 exchanges is no simple task and will require a lot of time and testing.  Getting the code wrong is very costly and as such development time is prohibitive.  The simple fact is, no winnning punter will move 100%, however they are at no loss to seed several exchanges... afterall even if only 10% of bets matched elsewhere this will likely result in a 10% reduction in PC.  Also note that the 480 are no longer bothered about keeping their commission at 2% as this no longer matters... so liquidity is likely to drop from this fact alone... as we are seeing in the horse markets.

Though I take less interest in the football markets, I would hazard a guess that these will end up being more liquid at purple due to the less volatility in prices before the off.  Maybe I will take an interest in the coming weeks for this reason alone.

It is sad (to me) because I love betfair, but I think they have finally shot themselves in the foot.

Liquidity,(whatever that really means),may well drop but will profits rise? ,both short term and long term?

It's the 'quality' of the matched bets that now appear to matter to Betfair rather than the quantity.

Surely you can all agree that the ideal customer base for an exchange is a huge mass of evenly matched gamblers all doing battle with each other over and over again?

By scaring off those at the top of the food chain the customer base moves a step closer towards the ideal business model.

Surely you can all agree that the ideal customer base for an exchange is a huge mass of evenly matched gamblers all doing battle with each other over and over again?

By scaring off those at the top of the food chain the customer base moves a step closer towards the ideal business model.

johnny, you will now be betting against betfair and their bots.......do you think that is going to help the average punter?

I received my PC statement today, my premium charge applied is 1 pence greater than the maximum premium charge...should I complain?

iz77778

My post was looking at the position from Betfair's perspective.

PC2 should boost profits - some of the big winners will just stay and pay more.

Some,no doubt, will leave, reducing the number of matched bets but moving the customer base closer to the ideal.

Do you dispute my statement regarding the ideal customer base for an exchange?



Now your reply considers the position of the average punter?

Would they rather do battle with the hardened long term profitable pros and their finely tuned systems or Betfair and their bots? Who knows? Betfair and their bots may not be as good? The pros have proven their abilities over many years after all.

If Betfair and their bots offer me top price (after commission) they can have my business.

If Betfair and their bots offer me top price (after commission) they can have my business.

They won't though. Except maybe on the horses. Mind you, that's the current situation as well.

Would they rather do battle with the hardened long term profitable pros and their finely tuned systems or Betfair and their bots? Who knows? Betfair and their bots may not be as good? The pros have proven their abilities over many years after all.

If Betfair and their bots offer me top price (after commission) they can have my business.

you will do battle with the pros, even if the pro leave...betfair prices and odds movements will just follow betduck (or where the pros go)

Well, at least it's given bf-fanananananananatic something to do

I suspect that half the reason that volumes are down is because when we'd normally be betting, we're on here feeding the trolls.

Surely you can all agree that the ideal customer base for an exchange is a huge mass of evenly matched gamblers all doing battle with each other over and over again?

yes that does sound like an ideal customers base.....except that is not betfair and never will be.

you will still get hoovered just as fast by the betfair bots as you did by the fast pic guys and courtsiders. the pc has not and will not changed these outcomes on the exchange - it is just that it will now be betfair taking your money and not another punter.

Are you saying BF run their own bots?  Other than the cross-matcher I mean.

I agree, Betfair,or indeed any other company, won't ever achieve their perfect customer base but, you should always be looking for ways to move the business in that direction. That's how you build a strong, stable, company able to sustain long term profitability.

Most of us are not stupid - we understand about time delays and dead spots in live action - we just don't get involved when we face a huge negative edge.