TB, I went looking for Rixy's post again as I couldn't remember all he wrote, but for some strange reason, it's gone ?  Nothing anti Betfair in that one as far as I can remember ?

As far as I can remember though his suggestion was something similar to what SKI-Wiz suggested on your thread on the golf forum and why do people come up with these suggestions that will punish anyone betting in larger amount than most people do.
  Do you(they) really think Betfair will introduce commission rules punishing people the more they bet ?

Good post; my understanding is that your lifetime net profits must exceed £250,000 before paying the PC charge so you must be doing very well. It's like paying higher rate income tax for high earners.

So you're gonna give up betfair and go back to your boring 'computer-based job' ?....I don't think so!

Mr Baboon, 250k isn't that much if you split it over 5 years, lets say he makes 50k a year, a good wage yes but presumably he's worked hard at it.

now betfair want to take 60% of gross profits(turns out to be more like 70% on net profit) .

his 50k a year dream job has suddenly turned into 15k a year, below minimum wage, why shouldn't he go back to his old job?

Mr Baboon - the problem is that it's based on how much you've made in the past not about how much you'll make in the future. imagine you'd been in your job for 4 years doing the same thing earning 60k a year.  the government taxed you 20% of your earnings. the government then announces that anyone who's been doing that job for 4 years or more will now be taxed at between 40% to 60% depending on how good you are at your job (the better you are the more you get taxed). in the meantime someone else doing exactly the same thing as you joins the company and does exactly the same job as you, but only gets taxed 20%.

this is the major inequity.

china castle - have you paid the pc before? it won't work like that if your winning weeks and losing weeks are distributed throughout the year. i'm assuming it will work in exactly the same way as previous where you will only pay when your lifetime profit:total charges ratio is under 40%. as such a winning week, followed by an equal losing week, followed by an equal winning week will mean PC is only paid on the first week.

incidentally anyone want to price up the chance of the PC portal being updated to reflect the new charges?

i'll give it a go:

yes: 1.3
no: 2.7

(i need the overround to pay the pc)

Too late, I took £100 on 'no' at 2.7 [:p]

i have never in any circles of bussiness seen such an imposing bussiness turn around policy that takes so much off so few delivered in such a careless and heartless manner in a form that looks like a draft wrote by a spoilt child as the latest amendment to the premium charge.

DStyle your comment @ 9:43

china castle - have you paid the pc before? it won't work like that if your winning weeks and losing weeks are distributed throughout the year. i'm assuming it will work in exactly the same way as previous where you will only pay when your lifetime profit:total charges ratio is under 40%. as such a winning week, followed by an equal losing week, followed by an equal winning week will mean PC is only paid on the first week.

I worked out my pc last year starting at 40% and though I had generated around 25% in commission (overall) and no 20% pc charges, I would have ended up paying an additional 30% of my NET profit (after commission) because of how my results fell!  How many people seriously have winning and losing weeks nicely "distributed throughout the year"?  Maybe traders, I don't know? But for us back or lay only bettors it is going to be very tough going!  This is why I was asking betfair to increase their PC payment dates from a weekly basis to something less volatile like a month or ideally more. Or some kind of rebate.  The liquidity providers are going to be hit badly by this, not just traders!

catfleppo Joined: 22 Feb 07
Replies: 129 19 Jul 11 06:45   
Total, what do you mean by 'win £9'?  If that is your net winnings after commission then betfair won't take 60% of it.  If it is your gross winnings then it is a bit misleading. 

They will, they'll just take it in different stages

Good of you to post, TB.  I think your skills are wholly transferable over there and I wish you luck, although I'd expect your margins to be down a bit as you have to give away some value across the spread to get matched (for now).

What bf should realise that, as your skills are transferable, it is they that have ridden on the back of your success, not the other way round.  It is our money, not theirs, that is at risk every time we press submit and they should think themselves lucky to have it as a withdrawal is only a click away.

There is no BF magic, it's just an exchange.

TB,

I think you should be grateful that you have made so much over the past few years. You wrote:


So, because I play one or two markets a week, and they last long enough to recover mistakes, I generally emerge with a profit.  I don’t think this strike-rate is unnatural over such a small number of markets, I’m just consistent.

From today Betfair want to take more of my profit than I get myself.

You targeted markets where the anomaly existed. Playing long term 4 day markets meant that the charging of commission on net winning per market was hugely in your benefit.

I started on here playing the horses. Over the four days of your golf tournament I might bet on 150 or more horseraces. I would win some (and pay commission on those markets) and then lose some. If the golf market was split into 150 time defined markets settled every few minutes not lasting 'last long enough to recover mistakes' you would lose when you made a bad decision and pay commission every time you made a good decision.

Every 150 horse markets at even money 51.3% of the time to break even after commission. Trading a four day market that calculates commission at the end you only need to win 50.00001% to show a profit at the end of the tournament.

You are now complaining Betfair want 40% of what you win in long term markets in commisison. But if you had played short term markets you would probably have been paying well over that in normal commission anyway.

An allowance would help but I would find 20% hard to pay. Plus it would be hard to forcast - added to forcasting future profit/loss (near impossible). But they need to do something or risk losing customers.

Any charging structure will create anomalies. Even with the PC it is still favourable to trade and play long term markets than to punt in short term markets. The risk is lower (as TB says) and you still only pay commission at the end if you win overall.

How many winning racing punters over the years would have preferred to pay 5% of their net profits after 4 days of betting rather than normal commission on every winning race? It would be a no brainer. Now they are saying 40% rather than 5% it is a much closer decision.

I would say T20 is a perfect example of a shorter event where more bets are placed.

There's a betting opportunity after each ball in T20, while in a test they only come up every 20-30 minutes.


The answer frog is that it should be an amount per bet, not per time period.

Fair enough, maybe my impression of horse racing traders is false, as it's about the only type of event I don't get involved in very often.

nbd proposal is a little fairer you should be able to make a certain amount per week at your existing pc level say £500, then they could increase it to 40% and then 60% for over 1k, i would pay 20% pc like i have been doing for years and if i had a good week be asked to pay more, but as it stands i had a good day yesterday and won £300 i will have  £200 ish  of that taken away, obviously that isn't viable long term.
if i was lucky enough to win 1k this week i will get about £350
if i won 1k on a sliding scale say 20% for the first £500 and 40% for the next £500 i would get to keep £670 ish(surely that is acceptable for the customer and enables Betfair to profit from that customer)
if i was lucky enough to win more than 1k i would be happy to move into the 60% bracket because it has been a good week and it doesn't feel as bad
but when it's over 60% on everything you make it is obvious every bet you place is offering no value and you can not sustain that unless you are massively advantaged in some way.

Eddie - Rixy wasn't going as far to suggest a graduation of the commission system entirely, which, like you, I'd disagree with.  He just simply suggested an amendment to the new PC structure with a weekly 'personal allowance' threshold above which PC would be charged, allowing people to make some sort of reasonable income before being taxed to the hilt.  It would, I think, be a fair concession to allow people to still make a living, or aspire to make a living, while still extracting a big premium from those who make excessive risk-free profits.

Frog2 - I'm not complaining that Betfair want 40% of what I win.  I'm complaining that they want 60% of what I win.  There's a huge difference financially and also in principle, that they want more of my profit than I get myself.  At 40% I MIGHT be able to carry on, at 60% I don't see how I can.  I didn't deliberately target any anomalies in the system, my choice of specialising in golf came about before I'd really considered the charging structure.   I accept that these anomalies existed and in my original post say that one of the reasons I accepted PC1 was it redressed this somewhat.  But 60% is excessive.

TB, I am no way suggesting you targeted anomalies in the charging system. But I think you are against 60% because it seems like a massive increase. Commission if you pay it on lots of short term markets is a 'hidden' charge that is harder to notice. Being told you have to top up to 60% is obviously a massive shock. At last check I paid 68% of what I have won on here in commission. I am not complaining about paying it because it has happened over the years of mainly outright betting with some systems working and others failing with all the time commission chipping away at it. You have had a good run. The way you bet and your skill means you have paid less than 5% of your total profit on Betfair to Betfair. Had I only had to paid that much commission as well my overall profit for the last ten years would be almost treble what it actually is. If I had been earning that much and was suddenly told that I was about to only get a third this year as to what I got last year I would be upset as well. But I am happy to have paid what I have paid because without Betfair I would have been stuck trying to get on at the bookies.

They could just do something really simple and stop the use of the API. Just stick to basics. That would cut down the stress on the servers by like 99.99% and allow the betfair bot to totally clean up thus making them more money. With this they could scrap PC2 altogether and make losing accounts pay 0% Comms, winning accs over 50k lifetime 10%, 1million lifetime 20% - Job done.

No negative press, or sentiment........well ok apart from all the bot users, but that's not really betting or trading anyhow.

What's all the commotion going on about bots? What's the difference if you sit in front of the computer and want to bet on a horse or a bot placing a bet when you're at work or asleep on the same horse, for the same amount? What's the big deal?