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Total Bosman
18 Jul 11 13:25
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Date Joined: 15 Dec 04
| Topic/replies: 9,809 | Blogger: Total Bosman's blog
Firstly, apologies if this is all a bit self-indulgent, this just felt like the right day to jot this down.  I’m not looking for sympathy, or to be big-headed, but I’m fed up of being lumped in with courtsiders and cheats, so here’s my story.

Before 2004 I’d been a sport fan but never a gambler.  I was working in a boring computer-based job, and a few colleagues liked a punt during the day, so I followed suit to pass the time.  I looked at a few bookies sites and, even though I didn’t really understand the exchange concept, was drawn to Betfair.  I’d have a couple of quid on a horse race or two to pass the time, but couldn’t watch them, so I liked the fact you could follow the odds to imagine what was happening.

I became fascinated by how the odds moved, particularly in-running, and began watching the markets move in other sports too.  Since I was at work I couldn’t watch anything, so I started to almost follow events in reverse, by watching the odds and working out what was happening from that.

One day I had a look at the Sony Open golf before it started, and some form from previous years.  I noticed Azinger had played well there in the past, and had a fiver on at triple-digit odds.  Two days later he was bang in contention, and trading about 10s.  I’d never looked at the dynamics of laying but realised I could lock in a decent guaranteed profit.  He faded away, but I was quite excited to be in a position where I won regardless.

So I started following the golf markets every week, and was fascinated by the movement of the odds in a 100+ runner market, where every shot made some sort of difference to the odds of that player and every other player.  I didn’t have Sky so again I was looking at the odds and working out what was happening.  I’d place a few fiver bets and trade out of them, and make a miniscule profit if I got them right.  One day I took the bold step of depositing £300 so I could lay a player I thought was too short.  It was the last deposit I made.

I found myself making tiny but consistent profits each week, and built my bank that way throughout 2005.  In October 2005 I got pretty lucky with some trades, and made £4000 for the month which established me with a good-sized bank to trade with.  Things went well at the start of 2006 as well, but even so I can’t believe I was so rash to quit my job so soon.  I did so in June 2006.  I certainly didn’t expect to last five years, but I thought I’d have a go.  To someone who liked sport and hated his job, it was, and still is, a dream job.

The way I traded then is still the way I trade now.  I use the leaderboards from PGAtour.com, and watch it on Sky (I eventually treated myself).  Everything I follow during a tournament is available to everyone.  I use the standard Betfair interface, not a bot or any trading software.  When the North Americans have fast pics on a Sunday night, I’m as far behind as anyone.  The skill is in being able to constantly and quickly react to everything that’s going on and re-price a multi-runner market which changes with every shot.  And in having the balls to take a big position when you feel there’s value.  No two weeks are ever remotely the same.

I make a consistent, comfortable, but not spectacular living.  I’m cautious by nature so like to lock in a profit.  Although I have bad trades, some very bad ones, I’ve become a good ‘scrambler’, and some of my better performances have been good recovery jobs.  One week I lost thousands laying a runaway winner (Brian Gay) but recovered things somehow on the final day for an overall profit of £9.  It was one of the most satisfying wins I’ve had.

So, because I play one or two markets a week, and they last long enough to recover mistakes, I generally emerge with a profit.  I don’t think this strike-rate is unnatural over such a small number of markets, I’m just consistent.

From today Betfair want to take more of my profit than I get myself.

I don’t know yet what the future is, but it seems certain the five-year run of trading on Betfair for a living is over.  It’s possible that if things go well I could make a living on 40% of my profits, but that would leave no buffer for a bad run, and it’s always necessary to have that sort of buffer in such a risky business.  I’ve always known that this would come to an end, and that’s always been the scary part- that at any time, by being overtaken by someone better or by losing my focus, interest or discipline, I could stop winning altogether.  But the gut-punch is I feel I’m trading better than ever, but am now being priced out by Betfair themselves.

But they don’t owe me a living.  Although I was obviously upset when it was introduced, I understand the justification for the 20% PC.  It covers Betfair’s costs of attracting new players, and redresses an imbalance between those trading a few number of outright markets and those punting on multiple markets.  I’ve never sought to avoid paying PC, and I don’t even really know what churning is, other than what my stomach does at the thought of paying 60%.

Betfair’s justification for charging 60% is that at 20% they merely break even on my account.  By that logic, at, say, 30% I’d be an extremely profitable customer.  At 60% I can’t be a customer at all.  It all seems rather short-sighted.

I do believe 60% can be justified for the courtsiders, bot users or cheats, who cream consistent risk-free profits across hundreds of markets a week.  That’s not a ‘natural’ strike-rate.  But I hate being lumped in with these guys.  I might emerge with a fairly consistent profit, but I’m no cheat.  I take on a hell of a lot of risk every time I press submit.  Once their 20% is covered, Betfair have no risk, and that’s why I think their share of my reward is unjustified. 

Perhaps some extra criteria could mitigate this a touch – a minimum weekly threshold above which 40-60% is charged would help.  It seems ridiculous that even in my Brian Gay week, I’d be charged 60% of my £9 profit.  Or some sort of distinction based on the number of markets played, since maintaining a high strike-rate over hundreds of markets a week is far more indicative of risk-free ‘cheating’ than winning a consistent profit over only one or two longer-term markets a week.  There doesn’t seem to be any possibility of a compromise.

But they can charge what they like, and if I have to go, I have to go.  It’s a shame because I’ve always been a Betfair evangelist.  When I tell people about what I do they are fascinated, and I daresay a few have come here themselves as a result.  When I hear people talking about having a punt on something, I tell them they should come here, not just for better odds, but I also explain the idea of trading out for a profit no matter what happens. 

For me, that’s what Betfair’s always been about – they used to run seminars in doing just that – and I feel that I’ve only ever used Betfair in the manner for which it was intended.  Although I’m far from the most profitable customer on here, I at least show to some extent what can – or could – be achieved playing honestly and well on Betfair. 

Would I recommend Betfair to others now?  No, probably not.  Not just because of the current price hike, although I do believe it is unfair.  But they have shown they don’t want anyone to profit but themselves, and if so, what’s the point?  When that is the case, betting here is no more shrewd than betting with any bookie.  And they have shown they are constantly willing to move the charging goalposts at the drop of a hat.  The premium charge, and especially the new premium premium charge, is not just a charge on profits I might make in the future it’s a charge based on all the profits I’ve made in the past.  How could I or anyone know what odds we are really betting when charges invented in the future might apply based on whether or not we win?  I do not believe Betfair now has a fair or transparent charging structure.

Like I said, I’m not looking for sympathy or anything, just to get this off my chest.  I’ve been lucky to do this for five years, and I’ve got Betfair in part to thank for that, as well as a hell of a lot of hard work a hell of a lot of risk, and a reasonable smattering of stress and recreational swearing.  It’s a shame if it has to end like this.

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Replies: 89
By:
-Artifice-
When: 18 Jul 11 13:55
Nice piece bosman - very similar to my own story.
By:
DStyle
When: 18 Jul 11 13:58
great post.

i think that perhaps what betfair don't realise is that the people who aspire to have your success are probably betfair's best customers.
By:
No_BS
When: 18 Jul 11 14:00
Looking at the type of market you are working with would it be possible to make any BACK bets with the bookies and just use betfair for the lay side of things?

If this is not possible maybe a trading partner would be a better option, not any one that would be connected with your account but a person that could operate the BACK or LAY side while you work the other.

just some ideas you could look at.
By:
bf_fananatic
When: 18 Jul 11 14:05
Hi total bosman, i feel that you are right in your concerns, its worse for players like you because the justification for the pc charge has been firstly they said to offer a minor 30 quid to attract players in, wow 30 quid that should hook the big spenders, then they say all winners are robots hoovering all the profits, its all sounding like smoke screens to me and many, its them trying
justify  them sucking up other peoples profits!

i think the whole premium charge is regrettable anf probably its a get rich quick perk before they become a bookmakers, this is the only reason a successful exchange would openly purge its exchange model winners for extra cash if they were at some point morphing into a more risky bookmaker.
By:
roadrunner46
When: 18 Jul 11 14:07
well written, shocked to hear they gonna take 60% of your profits.
By:
nortons
When: 18 Jul 11 14:07
Great post bossman,when i joined up trading was their unique selling point, now we are all lumped in with the cheats and hooverers who will still continue to operate, the only difference being betfair awarding themselves a bigger cut of the risk free profits.Originally it was advertised as a person to person site,we are dinosaurs operating in a sea of bots which at the outset were actively discouraged,people joining up now have no idea how the cards are stacked against them.
By:
zipper
When: 18 Jul 11 14:12
Very well put .....you said it all ....Betfair need a rethink but we dont have all the facts   they do .....
By:
Bluenose
When: 18 Jul 11 14:17
well written and my tale is similar except US racing instead of golf and i suppose im "lucky" that im only going to pay 40% and not 60
By:
jjjjj
When: 18 Jul 11 14:51
same here.
i did never cheat, never beat the clock, never was courtside, never used api or bots. i did everyone of my millions of bets manually using the classic betfair interface. i provided 100s of millions of liquidity, paid some 100K in commission, i had losing days of 100K+ and i am a loser in 2011.

what did i do wrong to get raped by betfair soon? perhaps its some strange way of saying thank you to the most loyal customers who made betfair big?
By:
bf_fananatic
When: 18 Jul 11 15:16
perhaps we betfair would have bigger profit margins if they gave some of the top players on here a week to sort the company out? anyone agree
By:
u25k
When: 18 Jul 11 15:50
good post

It is sad to listen that Betfair asking 60% of profits. Government should do the same they should take 60% of gambling companies.
By:
u25k
When: 18 Jul 11 15:51
Government should do the same they should take 60% of gambling companies profits.
By:
TELL DEL
When: 18 Jul 11 17:13
Very interesting post Bosman.  I can understand betfair wanting to target bot users and cheats.  But unfortunately others who take a risk position have also been caught up in the net (unfairly).

I sincerely hope betfair read your post and have a rethink,
but I equally sincerely doubt it.
By:
catfleppo
When: 18 Jul 11 18:22
The pc does not target bots.

I like the op.  To me it reads like a success story and I admire the honesty of realising that it probably would last forever.

Good luck with whatever you do instead if you really can't find a way to stay here.
By:
marky sparky
When: 18 Jul 11 18:38
Great post.

I want to bet at an exchange where Total Bosman feels welcome.
By:
TheVis
When: 18 Jul 11 19:13
Using bookies and/or betting partner would not work in Bossman's case as would be far too risky.

On a level week he could end up winning thousands on his own account whilst losing elsewhere and BF taking up to 60% is going to kill him.
By:
thecookiemonster
When: 18 Jul 11 19:38
Betfair has a strategy in place , they know they effect good punters like bosman. They are taking a big gamble that will probably blow up in their face.
By:
Total Bosman
When: 18 Jul 11 20:05
Thanks for the comments folks.

Regarding any hope of avoidance etc.  I'm not getting involved in any account shenanigans.  I'm not a fraudster and I don't intend to become one.  I make what I consider to be an honest living from gambling and if I can no longer do so then so be it.

And I've got no intention of getting involved in arbing / churning etc.  I enjoy the thrills and spills of what I do - I know some people may think of trading as safe or risk-averse, but every trade for me starts with a punt I think is value and then I consider what to do with it further down the line, just like that first ever Azinger punt.  It's exciting and it's fun and I don't want to turn into an accountant  or a mathematician grinding away at markets day and night to make things pay.  I'd rather just get a job.

Assuming Betfair don't suddenly have an epiphany about all this by best hope is that a genuine rival emerges.  It could be a slow process but among PC payers or non-PC payers I don't sense much loyalty or goodwill towards BF any more, so there has to be a tipping point.  Breaking the monopoly would be a good thing for everyone, maybe even Betfair themselves- the share price suggests they need to buck up their ideas and some competition might actually force them to do that.
By:
Mr.Angry
When: 18 Jul 11 20:10
Total Bosman - my story is very similar.  Like you I am no cheat; I use my own skills in match reading and pricing for in-play football markets.  Nothing sinister, no clock beating, no dodgy shenanigans, just pure skill.  Now I pay 40%.

It's punishment for using the services as it was intended to be used.
By:
dlarssonf
When: 18 Jul 11 20:12
All trading is punting Bosman, people just thinks it sounds better describing it as trading, once you put money in the market there is a risk it won't go your way..... best of luck with whatever path you take from here!
By:
marpentoise
When: 18 Jul 11 21:01
Great post Bosman.  Copy/Paste story for myself... (the only difference is I bet on tennis, and I do more markets).

Never used a robot, never been a courtsider, never tried to avoid the 20% PC etc...


May i ask you if you will try to move to somewhere else?
By:
Templeton Peck
When: 18 Jul 11 21:06
Excellent post.

My story's pretty similar.  I've been 'working' on here for just 18 months, I'm not quite at the £250k net profit mark but it's only a matter of time.

I don't use anything other than the bog standard Betfair site and a single spreadsheet.  No bots, API, fast pics, etc.  I've done virtually nothing to try and avoid the PC I pay now, maybe something every now and then to try and get my commission a little higher.

The new net has been cast much too widely, but they can afford to abuse their position of strength (a virtual monopoly). 

I'd like to see the first, say, £2k profit each week be a 'personal allowance'.  It will make a great difference to the 'smaller' punter yet still hit the big boys.
By:
tinca tinca
When: 18 Jul 11 21:19
Great post Bosman.I am strictly a layer on the horses.I have a profitable account and have never met an owner,jockey,trainer,stable lad Bookmaker or anyone else who could be privy to so called inside information,nor would I wish to.I bet purely on my own opinion and all my bets are placed pre race and manually.
At the moment I would not be liable for the new pc but a few years down the line who knows.
I think it is dispicable the way people such as yourself have been treated,especially as Betfair used to use the advertising slogan "winners always welcome".

At a single stroke Betfair have removed the incentive that drives alot of gamblers to live the dream and aspire to success.

Good luck for the future.
By:
FINE AS FROG HAIR
When: 18 Jul 11 21:52
THE TOTAL BOSMAN POST
Very, very much the best ever put up on the subject.
It should be compulsory reading for every member of the BF senior management and board.
It is indeed a very sad day when intelligent and honest true punters like total bosman are forced to give up the ghost on here.
Absolutely criminal.
By:
viva el presidente!
When: 18 Jul 11 22:12
great post TB.
By:
pmbets
When: 18 Jul 11 22:14
No one can survive with all the hard work in the long run on the pc .It's impossible .
By:
armagnac
When: 18 Jul 11 22:30
A fine post indeed TB and worthy of some kind of media coverage to which betfair might sit up and take some notice but obviously take no action !!
I feel there are many, many more in the same boat.
something tells me betfair are milking this for all they can, coz its surely only a matter of time before they are seriously challenged in there own arena.
By:
Total Bosman
When: 18 Jul 11 22:34
Marpentoise - Yes, I've been building a bank over the road for the last few weeks and will try to make a go of it there.  It'll be a slog but hopefully in the long run it'll be worth it.  I'm sure Betfair will succeed in one way or another driving off all their customers eventually!
By:
Bung It On
When: 18 Jul 11 22:55
FAFH - what great achievement do you have to your name to decide what is or isn't the best post on this subject. What an arrogant sh1te you truly are.
By:
FINE AS FROG HAIR
When: 18 Jul 11 23:03
Sorry Bung.
Should have prefaced it with imo.
Anyway Bung post up what iyo was a better post ?
By:
FINE AS FROG HAIR
When: 18 Jul 11 23:08
Btw Bung my only true great achievement to date is managing to stay alive.
Though if I ran into you in a pub, it would seem that even that might end rather abruptly.
By:
FINE AS FROG HAIR
When: 18 Jul 11 23:35
Hey Bung baby, I'm still waiting for your "better" post on the subject.
By:
Eddie the eagle
When: 18 Jul 11 23:38
Rixy, just another customer coming up with clever "solutions" that happens to be perfectly suited to their way of using this site Sad
By:
Rocket to the FACE
When: 18 Jul 11 23:38
reply:
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FINE AS FROG HAIR
18 Jul 11 23:08
Joined:  12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 3,398 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
Btw Bung my only true great achievement to date is managing to stay alive.
Though if I ran into you in a pub, it would seem that even that might end rather abruptly.





Faaaaaakin 'elllll


FAFH has finally made me chuckle.
By:
Total Bosman
When: 19 Jul 11 00:11
Eddie - I've got to take issue with you there, I think that's harsh.  I think most people would think Rixy's suggestion of a minimum weekly threshold is a reasonable one in general.  If part of the 'dream' of anyone using Betfair is the ability to someday make a living from it, then fixing a threshold that allows people to make a living, and above which a higher rate is paid, would at least keep that dream alive. The solution may very well suit Rixy, as it would me, but it's a pretty general suggestion and not one that really fits any specific style of play. Or do you think it's fair that in a week when I win £9 Betfair take 60% of it?
By:
viva el presidente!
When: 19 Jul 11 00:25
^I'd second that, TB. bottom line is, this stuff's work. and if you work for a week to end up a pound up, BF taking 60p of it seems pernicious.
By:
FINE AS FROG HAIR
When: 19 Jul 11 00:49
Whew. What a relief Rocket.
Is it going to be all good now between us going forward ? We have at least perhaps found our humour common denominator ?
Still all depends eh ?
By:
FINE AS FROG HAIR
When: 19 Jul 11 00:51
Pernicious.
Lovely word Viva.
You do have a way with words I have to admit.
I'm still chuckling periodically over the " Would you mind awfully " line you threw in recently.
By:
catfleppo
When: 19 Jul 11 06:45
Total, what do you mean by 'win £9'?  If that is your net winnings after commission then betfair won't take 60% of it.  If it is your gross winnings then it is a bit misleading.
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