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18 Jul 11
13:25
Joined:
Date Joined:
15 Dec 04
Firstly, apologies if this is all a bit self-indulgent, this just felt like the right day to jot this down. I’m not looking for sympathy, or to be big-headed, but I’m fed up of being lumped in with courtsiders and cheats, so here’s my story.
Before 2004 I’d been a sport fan but never a gambler. I was working in a boring computer-based job, and a few colleagues liked a punt during the day, so I followed suit to pass the time. I looked at a few bookies sites and, even though I didn’t really understand the exchange concept, was drawn to Betfair. I’d have a couple of quid on a horse race or two to pass the time, but couldn’t watch them, so I liked the fact you could follow the odds to imagine what was happening.
I became fascinated by how the odds moved, particularly in-running, and began watching the markets move in other sports too. Since I was at work I couldn’t watch anything, so I started to almost follow events in reverse, by watching the odds and working out what was happening from that.
One day I had a look at the Sony Open golf before it started, and some form from previous years. I noticed Azinger had played well there in the past, and had a fiver on at triple-digit odds. Two days later he was bang in contention, and trading about 10s. I’d never looked at the dynamics of laying but realised I could lock in a decent guaranteed profit. He faded away, but I was quite excited to be in a position where I won regardless.
So I started following the golf markets every week, and was fascinated by the movement of the odds in a 100+ runner market, where every shot made some sort of difference to the odds of that player and every other player. I didn’t have Sky so again I was looking at the odds and working out what was happening. I’d place a few fiver bets and trade out of them, and make a miniscule profit if I got them right. One day I took the bold step of depositing £300 so I could lay a player I thought was too short. It was the last deposit I made.
I found myself making tiny but consistent profits each week, and built my bank that way throughout 2005. In October 2005 I got pretty lucky with some trades, and made £4000 for the month which established me with a good-sized bank to trade with. Things went well at the start of 2006 as well, but even so I can’t believe I was so rash to quit my job so soon. I did so in June 2006. I certainly didn’t expect to last five years, but I thought I’d have a go. To someone who liked sport and hated his job, it was, and still is, a dream job.
The way I traded then is still the way I trade now. I use the leaderboards from PGAtour.com, and watch it on Sky (I eventually treated myself). Everything I follow during a tournament is available to everyone. I use the standard Betfair interface, not a bot or any trading software. When the North Americans have fast pics on a Sunday night, I’m as far behind as anyone. The skill is in being able to constantly and quickly react to everything that’s going on and re-price a multi-runner market which changes with every shot. And in having the balls to take a big position when you feel there’s value. No two weeks are ever remotely the same.
I make a consistent, comfortable, but not spectacular living. I’m cautious by nature so like to lock in a profit. Although I have bad trades, some very bad ones, I’ve become a good ‘scrambler’, and some of my better performances have been good recovery jobs. One week I lost thousands laying a runaway winner (Brian Gay) but recovered things somehow on the final day for an overall profit of £9. It was one of the most satisfying wins I’ve had.
So, because I play one or two markets a week, and they last long enough to recover mistakes, I generally emerge with a profit. I don’t think this strike-rate is unnatural over such a small number of markets, I’m just consistent.
From today Betfair want to take more of my profit than I get myself.
I don’t know yet what the future is, but it seems certain the five-year run of trading on Betfair for a living is over. It’s possible that if things go well I could make a living on 40% of my profits, but that would leave no buffer for a bad run, and it’s always necessary to have that sort of buffer in such a risky business. I’ve always known that this would come to an end, and that’s always been the scary part- that at any time, by being overtaken by someone better or by losing my focus, interest or discipline, I could stop winning altogether. But the gut-punch is I feel I’m trading better than ever, but am now being priced out by Betfair themselves.
But they don’t owe me a living. Although I was obviously upset when it was introduced, I understand the justification for the 20% PC. It covers Betfair’s costs of attracting new players, and redresses an imbalance between those trading a few number of outright markets and those punting on multiple markets. I’ve never sought to avoid paying PC, and I don’t even really know what churning is, other than what my stomach does at the thought of paying 60%.
Betfair’s justification for charging 60% is that at 20% they merely break even on my account. By that logic, at, say, 30% I’d be an extremely profitable customer. At 60% I can’t be a customer at all. It all seems rather short-sighted.
I do believe 60% can be justified for the courtsiders, bot users or cheats, who cream consistent risk-free profits across hundreds of markets a week. That’s not a ‘natural’ strike-rate. But I hate being lumped in with these guys. I might emerge with a fairly consistent profit, but I’m no cheat. I take on a hell of a lot of risk every time I press submit. Once their 20% is covered, Betfair have no risk, and that’s why I think their share of my reward is unjustified.
Perhaps some extra criteria could mitigate this a touch – a minimum weekly threshold above which 40-60% is charged would help. It seems ridiculous that even in my Brian Gay week, I’d be charged 60% of my £9 profit. Or some sort of distinction based on the number of markets played, since maintaining a high strike-rate over hundreds of markets a week is far more indicative of risk-free ‘cheating’ than winning a consistent profit over only one or two longer-term markets a week. There doesn’t seem to be any possibility of a compromise.
But they can charge what they like, and if I have to go, I have to go. It’s a shame because I’ve always been a Betfair evangelist. When I tell people about what I do they are fascinated, and I daresay a few have come here themselves as a result. When I hear people talking about having a punt on something, I tell them they should come here, not just for better odds, but I also explain the idea of trading out for a profit no matter what happens.
For me, that’s what Betfair’s always been about – they used to run seminars in doing just that – and I feel that I’ve only ever used Betfair in the manner for which it was intended. Although I’m far from the most profitable customer on here, I at least show to some extent what can – or could – be achieved playing honestly and well on Betfair.
Would I recommend Betfair to others now? No, probably not. Not just because of the current price hike, although I do believe it is unfair. But they have shown they don’t want anyone to profit but themselves, and if so, what’s the point? When that is the case, betting here is no more shrewd than betting with any bookie. And they have shown they are constantly willing to move the charging goalposts at the drop of a hat. The premium charge, and especially the new premium premium charge, is not just a charge on profits I might make in the future it’s a charge based on all the profits I’ve made in the past. How could I or anyone know what odds we are really betting when charges invented in the future might apply based on whether or not we win? I do not believe Betfair now has a fair or transparent charging structure.
Like I said, I’m not looking for sympathy or anything, just to get this off my chest. I’ve been lucky to do this for five years, and I’ve got Betfair in part to thank for that, as well as a hell of a lot of hard work a hell of a lot of risk, and a reasonable smattering of stress and recreational swearing. It’s a shame if it has to end like this.
Before 2004 I’d been a sport fan but never a gambler. I was working in a boring computer-based job, and a few colleagues liked a punt during the day, so I followed suit to pass the time. I looked at a few bookies sites and, even though I didn’t really understand the exchange concept, was drawn to Betfair. I’d have a couple of quid on a horse race or two to pass the time, but couldn’t watch them, so I liked the fact you could follow the odds to imagine what was happening.
I became fascinated by how the odds moved, particularly in-running, and began watching the markets move in other sports too. Since I was at work I couldn’t watch anything, so I started to almost follow events in reverse, by watching the odds and working out what was happening from that.
One day I had a look at the Sony Open golf before it started, and some form from previous years. I noticed Azinger had played well there in the past, and had a fiver on at triple-digit odds. Two days later he was bang in contention, and trading about 10s. I’d never looked at the dynamics of laying but realised I could lock in a decent guaranteed profit. He faded away, but I was quite excited to be in a position where I won regardless.
So I started following the golf markets every week, and was fascinated by the movement of the odds in a 100+ runner market, where every shot made some sort of difference to the odds of that player and every other player. I didn’t have Sky so again I was looking at the odds and working out what was happening. I’d place a few fiver bets and trade out of them, and make a miniscule profit if I got them right. One day I took the bold step of depositing £300 so I could lay a player I thought was too short. It was the last deposit I made.
I found myself making tiny but consistent profits each week, and built my bank that way throughout 2005. In October 2005 I got pretty lucky with some trades, and made £4000 for the month which established me with a good-sized bank to trade with. Things went well at the start of 2006 as well, but even so I can’t believe I was so rash to quit my job so soon. I did so in June 2006. I certainly didn’t expect to last five years, but I thought I’d have a go. To someone who liked sport and hated his job, it was, and still is, a dream job.
The way I traded then is still the way I trade now. I use the leaderboards from PGAtour.com, and watch it on Sky (I eventually treated myself). Everything I follow during a tournament is available to everyone. I use the standard Betfair interface, not a bot or any trading software. When the North Americans have fast pics on a Sunday night, I’m as far behind as anyone. The skill is in being able to constantly and quickly react to everything that’s going on and re-price a multi-runner market which changes with every shot. And in having the balls to take a big position when you feel there’s value. No two weeks are ever remotely the same.
I make a consistent, comfortable, but not spectacular living. I’m cautious by nature so like to lock in a profit. Although I have bad trades, some very bad ones, I’ve become a good ‘scrambler’, and some of my better performances have been good recovery jobs. One week I lost thousands laying a runaway winner (Brian Gay) but recovered things somehow on the final day for an overall profit of £9. It was one of the most satisfying wins I’ve had.
So, because I play one or two markets a week, and they last long enough to recover mistakes, I generally emerge with a profit. I don’t think this strike-rate is unnatural over such a small number of markets, I’m just consistent.
From today Betfair want to take more of my profit than I get myself.
I don’t know yet what the future is, but it seems certain the five-year run of trading on Betfair for a living is over. It’s possible that if things go well I could make a living on 40% of my profits, but that would leave no buffer for a bad run, and it’s always necessary to have that sort of buffer in such a risky business. I’ve always known that this would come to an end, and that’s always been the scary part- that at any time, by being overtaken by someone better or by losing my focus, interest or discipline, I could stop winning altogether. But the gut-punch is I feel I’m trading better than ever, but am now being priced out by Betfair themselves.
But they don’t owe me a living. Although I was obviously upset when it was introduced, I understand the justification for the 20% PC. It covers Betfair’s costs of attracting new players, and redresses an imbalance between those trading a few number of outright markets and those punting on multiple markets. I’ve never sought to avoid paying PC, and I don’t even really know what churning is, other than what my stomach does at the thought of paying 60%.
Betfair’s justification for charging 60% is that at 20% they merely break even on my account. By that logic, at, say, 30% I’d be an extremely profitable customer. At 60% I can’t be a customer at all. It all seems rather short-sighted.
I do believe 60% can be justified for the courtsiders, bot users or cheats, who cream consistent risk-free profits across hundreds of markets a week. That’s not a ‘natural’ strike-rate. But I hate being lumped in with these guys. I might emerge with a fairly consistent profit, but I’m no cheat. I take on a hell of a lot of risk every time I press submit. Once their 20% is covered, Betfair have no risk, and that’s why I think their share of my reward is unjustified.
Perhaps some extra criteria could mitigate this a touch – a minimum weekly threshold above which 40-60% is charged would help. It seems ridiculous that even in my Brian Gay week, I’d be charged 60% of my £9 profit. Or some sort of distinction based on the number of markets played, since maintaining a high strike-rate over hundreds of markets a week is far more indicative of risk-free ‘cheating’ than winning a consistent profit over only one or two longer-term markets a week. There doesn’t seem to be any possibility of a compromise.
But they can charge what they like, and if I have to go, I have to go. It’s a shame because I’ve always been a Betfair evangelist. When I tell people about what I do they are fascinated, and I daresay a few have come here themselves as a result. When I hear people talking about having a punt on something, I tell them they should come here, not just for better odds, but I also explain the idea of trading out for a profit no matter what happens.
For me, that’s what Betfair’s always been about – they used to run seminars in doing just that – and I feel that I’ve only ever used Betfair in the manner for which it was intended. Although I’m far from the most profitable customer on here, I at least show to some extent what can – or could – be achieved playing honestly and well on Betfair.
Would I recommend Betfair to others now? No, probably not. Not just because of the current price hike, although I do believe it is unfair. But they have shown they don’t want anyone to profit but themselves, and if so, what’s the point? When that is the case, betting here is no more shrewd than betting with any bookie. And they have shown they are constantly willing to move the charging goalposts at the drop of a hat. The premium charge, and especially the new premium premium charge, is not just a charge on profits I might make in the future it’s a charge based on all the profits I’ve made in the past. How could I or anyone know what odds we are really betting when charges invented in the future might apply based on whether or not we win? I do not believe Betfair now has a fair or transparent charging structure.
Like I said, I’m not looking for sympathy or anything, just to get this off my chest. I’ve been lucky to do this for five years, and I’ve got Betfair in part to thank for that, as well as a hell of a lot of hard work a hell of a lot of risk, and a reasonable smattering of stress and recreational swearing. It’s a shame if it has to end like this.
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great post.
i think that perhaps what betfair don't realise is that the people who aspire to have your success are probably betfair's best customers.
i think that perhaps what betfair don't realise is that the people who aspire to have your success are probably betfair's best customers.
Looking at the type of market you are working with would it be possible to make any BACK bets with the bookies and just use betfair for the lay side of things?
If this is not possible maybe a trading partner would be a better option, not any one that would be connected with your account but a person that could operate the BACK or LAY side while you work the other.
just some ideas you could look at.
If this is not possible maybe a trading partner would be a better option, not any one that would be connected with your account but a person that could operate the BACK or LAY side while you work the other.
just some ideas you could look at.
Hi total bosman, i feel that you are right in your concerns, its worse for players like you because the justification for the pc charge has been firstly they said to offer a minor 30 quid to attract players in, wow 30 quid that should hook the big spenders, then they say all winners are robots hoovering all the profits, its all sounding like smoke screens to me and many, its them trying
justify them sucking up other peoples profits!
i think the whole premium charge is regrettable anf probably its a get rich quick perk before they become a bookmakers, this is the only reason a successful exchange would openly purge its exchange model winners for extra cash if they were at some point morphing into a more risky bookmaker.
justify them sucking up other peoples profits!
i think the whole premium charge is regrettable anf probably its a get rich quick perk before they become a bookmakers, this is the only reason a successful exchange would openly purge its exchange model winners for extra cash if they were at some point morphing into a more risky bookmaker.
well written, shocked to hear they gonna take 60% of your profits.
Great post bossman,when i joined up trading was their unique selling point, now we are all lumped in with the cheats and hooverers who will still continue to operate, the only difference being betfair awarding themselves a bigger cut of the risk free profits.Originally it was advertised as a person to person site,we are dinosaurs operating in a sea of bots which at the outset were actively discouraged,people joining up now have no idea how the cards are stacked against them.
Very well put .....you said it all ....Betfair need a rethink but we dont have all the facts they do .....
well written and my tale is similar except US racing instead of golf and i suppose im "lucky" that im only going to pay 40% and not 60
same here.
i did never cheat, never beat the clock, never was courtside, never used api or bots. i did everyone of my millions of bets manually using the classic betfair interface. i provided 100s of millions of liquidity, paid some 100K in commission, i had losing days of 100K+ and i am a loser in 2011.
what did i do wrong to get raped by betfair soon? perhaps its some strange way of saying thank you to the most loyal customers who made betfair big?
i did never cheat, never beat the clock, never was courtside, never used api or bots. i did everyone of my millions of bets manually using the classic betfair interface. i provided 100s of millions of liquidity, paid some 100K in commission, i had losing days of 100K+ and i am a loser in 2011.
what did i do wrong to get raped by betfair soon? perhaps its some strange way of saying thank you to the most loyal customers who made betfair big?
perhaps we betfair would have bigger profit margins if they gave some of the top players on here a week to sort the company out? anyone agree
good post
It is sad to listen that Betfair asking 60% of profits. Government should do the same they should take 60% of gambling companies.
It is sad to listen that Betfair asking 60% of profits. Government should do the same they should take 60% of gambling companies.
Government should do the same they should take 60% of gambling companies profits.
Very interesting post Bosman. I can understand betfair wanting to target bot users and cheats. But unfortunately others who take a risk position have also been caught up in the net (unfairly).
I sincerely hope betfair read your post and have a rethink,
but I equally sincerely doubt it.
I sincerely hope betfair read your post and have a rethink,
but I equally sincerely doubt it.
The pc does not target bots.
I like the op. To me it reads like a success story and I admire the honesty of realising that it probably would last forever.
Good luck with whatever you do instead if you really can't find a way to stay here.
I like the op. To me it reads like a success story and I admire the honesty of realising that it probably would last forever.
Good luck with whatever you do instead if you really can't find a way to stay here.
Great post.
I want to bet at an exchange where Total Bosman feels welcome.
I want to bet at an exchange where Total Bosman feels welcome.
Using bookies and/or betting partner would not work in Bossman's case as would be far too risky.
On a level week he could end up winning thousands on his own account whilst losing elsewhere and BF taking up to 60% is going to kill him.
On a level week he could end up winning thousands on his own account whilst losing elsewhere and BF taking up to 60% is going to kill him.
Betfair has a strategy in place , they know they effect good punters like bosman. They are taking a big gamble that will probably blow up in their face.
Thanks for the comments folks.
Regarding any hope of avoidance etc. I'm not getting involved in any account shenanigans. I'm not a fraudster and I don't intend to become one. I make what I consider to be an honest living from gambling and if I can no longer do so then so be it.
And I've got no intention of getting involved in arbing / churning etc. I enjoy the thrills and spills of what I do - I know some people may think of trading as safe or risk-averse, but every trade for me starts with a punt I think is value and then I consider what to do with it further down the line, just like that first ever Azinger punt. It's exciting and it's fun and I don't want to turn into an accountant or a mathematician grinding away at markets day and night to make things pay. I'd rather just get a job.
Assuming Betfair don't suddenly have an epiphany about all this by best hope is that a genuine rival emerges. It could be a slow process but among PC payers or non-PC payers I don't sense much loyalty or goodwill towards BF any more, so there has to be a tipping point. Breaking the monopoly would be a good thing for everyone, maybe even Betfair themselves- the share price suggests they need to buck up their ideas and some competition might actually force them to do that.
Regarding any hope of avoidance etc. I'm not getting involved in any account shenanigans. I'm not a fraudster and I don't intend to become one. I make what I consider to be an honest living from gambling and if I can no longer do so then so be it.
And I've got no intention of getting involved in arbing / churning etc. I enjoy the thrills and spills of what I do - I know some people may think of trading as safe or risk-averse, but every trade for me starts with a punt I think is value and then I consider what to do with it further down the line, just like that first ever Azinger punt. It's exciting and it's fun and I don't want to turn into an accountant or a mathematician grinding away at markets day and night to make things pay. I'd rather just get a job.
Assuming Betfair don't suddenly have an epiphany about all this by best hope is that a genuine rival emerges. It could be a slow process but among PC payers or non-PC payers I don't sense much loyalty or goodwill towards BF any more, so there has to be a tipping point. Breaking the monopoly would be a good thing for everyone, maybe even Betfair themselves- the share price suggests they need to buck up their ideas and some competition might actually force them to do that.
Total Bosman - my story is very similar. Like you I am no cheat; I use my own skills in match reading and pricing for in-play football markets. Nothing sinister, no clock beating, no dodgy shenanigans, just pure skill. Now I pay 40%.
It's punishment for using the services as it was intended to be used.
It's punishment for using the services as it was intended to be used.
All trading is punting Bosman, people just thinks it sounds better describing it as trading, once you put money in the market there is a risk it won't go your way..... best of luck with whatever path you take from here!
Great post Bosman. Copy/Paste story for myself... (the only difference is I bet on tennis, and I do more markets).
Never used a robot, never been a courtsider, never tried to avoid the 20% PC etc...
May i ask you if you will try to move to somewhere else?
Never used a robot, never been a courtsider, never tried to avoid the 20% PC etc...
May i ask you if you will try to move to somewhere else?
Excellent post.
My story's pretty similar. I've been 'working' on here for just 18 months, I'm not quite at the £250k net profit mark but it's only a matter of time.
I don't use anything other than the bog standard Betfair site and a single spreadsheet. No bots, API, fast pics, etc. I've done virtually nothing to try and avoid the PC I pay now, maybe something every now and then to try and get my commission a little higher.
The new net has been cast much too widely, but they can afford to abuse their position of strength (a virtual monopoly).
I'd like to see the first, say, £2k profit each week be a 'personal allowance'. It will make a great difference to the 'smaller' punter yet still hit the big boys.
My story's pretty similar. I've been 'working' on here for just 18 months, I'm not quite at the £250k net profit mark but it's only a matter of time.
I don't use anything other than the bog standard Betfair site and a single spreadsheet. No bots, API, fast pics, etc. I've done virtually nothing to try and avoid the PC I pay now, maybe something every now and then to try and get my commission a little higher.
The new net has been cast much too widely, but they can afford to abuse their position of strength (a virtual monopoly).
I'd like to see the first, say, £2k profit each week be a 'personal allowance'. It will make a great difference to the 'smaller' punter yet still hit the big boys.
Great post Bosman.I am strictly a layer on the horses.I have a profitable account and have never met an owner,jockey,trainer,stable lad Bookmaker or anyone else who could be privy to so called inside information,nor would I wish to.I bet purely on my own opinion and all my bets are placed pre race and manually.
At the moment I would not be liable for the new pc but a few years down the line who knows.
I think it is dispicable the way people such as yourself have been treated,especially as Betfair used to use the advertising slogan "winners always welcome".
At a single stroke Betfair have removed the incentive that drives alot of gamblers to live the dream and aspire to success.
Good luck for the future.
At the moment I would not be liable for the new pc but a few years down the line who knows.
I think it is dispicable the way people such as yourself have been treated,especially as Betfair used to use the advertising slogan "winners always welcome".
At a single stroke Betfair have removed the incentive that drives alot of gamblers to live the dream and aspire to success.
Good luck for the future.
THE TOTAL BOSMAN POST
Very, very much the best ever put up on the subject.
It should be compulsory reading for every member of the BF senior management and board.
It is indeed a very sad day when intelligent and honest true punters like total bosman are forced to give up the ghost on here.
Absolutely criminal.
Very, very much the best ever put up on the subject.
It should be compulsory reading for every member of the BF senior management and board.
It is indeed a very sad day when intelligent and honest true punters like total bosman are forced to give up the ghost on here.
Absolutely criminal.
No one can survive with all the hard work in the long run on the pc .It's impossible .
A fine post indeed TB and worthy of some kind of media coverage to which betfair might sit up and take some notice but obviously take no action !!
I feel there are many, many more in the same boat.
something tells me betfair are milking this for all they can, coz its surely only a matter of time before they are seriously challenged in there own arena.
I feel there are many, many more in the same boat.
something tells me betfair are milking this for all they can, coz its surely only a matter of time before they are seriously challenged in there own arena.
Marpentoise - Yes, I've been building a bank over the road for the last few weeks and will try to make a go of it there. It'll be a slog but hopefully in the long run it'll be worth it. I'm sure Betfair will succeed in one way or another driving off all their customers eventually!
FAFH - what great achievement do you have to your name to decide what is or isn't the best post on this subject. What an arrogant sh1te you truly are.
Sorry Bung.
Should have prefaced it with imo.
Anyway Bung post up what iyo was a better post ?
Should have prefaced it with imo.
Anyway Bung post up what iyo was a better post ?
Btw Bung my only true great achievement to date is managing to stay alive.
Though if I ran into you in a pub, it would seem that even that might end rather abruptly.
Though if I ran into you in a pub, it would seem that even that might end rather abruptly.
Hey Bung baby, I'm still waiting for your "better" post on the subject.
Rixy, just another customer coming up with clever "solutions" that happens to be perfectly suited to their way of using this site 
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FINE AS FROG HAIR
18 Jul 11 23:08
Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 3,398 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
Btw Bung my only true great achievement to date is managing to stay alive.
Though if I ran into you in a pub, it would seem that even that might end rather abruptly.
Faaaaaakin 'elllll
FAFH has finally made me chuckle.
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FINE AS FROG HAIR
18 Jul 11 23:08
Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 3,398 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
Btw Bung my only true great achievement to date is managing to stay alive.
Though if I ran into you in a pub, it would seem that even that might end rather abruptly.
Faaaaaakin 'elllll
FAFH has finally made me chuckle.
Eddie - I've got to take issue with you there, I think that's harsh. I think most people would think Rixy's suggestion of a minimum weekly threshold is a reasonable one in general. If part of the 'dream' of anyone using Betfair is the ability to someday make a living from it, then fixing a threshold that allows people to make a living, and above which a higher rate is paid, would at least keep that dream alive. The solution may very well suit Rixy, as it would me, but it's a pretty general suggestion and not one that really fits any specific style of play. Or do you think it's fair that in a week when I win £9 Betfair take 60% of it?
^I'd second that, TB. bottom line is, this stuff's work. and if you work for a week to end up a pound up, BF taking 60p of it seems pernicious.
Whew. What a relief Rocket.
Is it going to be all good now between us going forward ? We have at least perhaps found our humour common denominator ?
Still all depends eh ?
Is it going to be all good now between us going forward ? We have at least perhaps found our humour common denominator ?
Still all depends eh ?
Pernicious.
Lovely word Viva.
You do have a way with words I have to admit.
I'm still chuckling periodically over the " Would you mind awfully " line you threw in recently.
Lovely word Viva.
You do have a way with words I have to admit.
I'm still chuckling periodically over the " Would you mind awfully " line you threw in recently.
Total, what do you mean by 'win £9'? If that is your net winnings after commission then betfair won't take 60% of it. If it is your gross winnings then it is a bit misleading.
TB, I went looking for Rixy's post again as I couldn't remember all he wrote, but for some strange reason, it's gone ? Nothing anti Betfair in that one as far as I can remember ?
As far as I can remember though his suggestion was something similar to what SKI-Wiz suggested on your thread on the golf forum and why do people come up with these suggestions that will punish anyone betting in larger amount than most people do.
Do you(they) really think Betfair will introduce commission rules punishing people the more they bet ?
As far as I can remember though his suggestion was something similar to what SKI-Wiz suggested on your thread on the golf forum and why do people come up with these suggestions that will punish anyone betting in larger amount than most people do.
Do you(they) really think Betfair will introduce commission rules punishing people the more they bet ?
However standard commission is 5% and should remain so.....what the point of all this discount....betfair holidays....etc.....get rid of it and charge 5% across the board.
If in any market you made more than 1k profit then 5% up to 1k then 7% from 1k to 3k then 9% from 3k to 5k and 10% above 5k.....bascially tou are charged according to the amount of profit you make in that market.
I just copied and pasted above what SKI-Wiz wrote on the golf forum thread.
Not what Rixy said, but it was something up this alley he suggested too.
Anyone coming up with a suggestion like that has imo no understanding of what really makes this site thrive.
If in any market you made more than 1k profit then 5% up to 1k then 7% from 1k to 3k then 9% from 3k to 5k and 10% above 5k.....bascially tou are charged according to the amount of profit you make in that market.
I just copied and pasted above what SKI-Wiz wrote on the golf forum thread.
Not what Rixy said, but it was something up this alley he suggested too.
Anyone coming up with a suggestion like that has imo no understanding of what really makes this site thrive.
Good post; my understanding is that your lifetime net profits must exceed £250,000 before paying the PC charge so you must be doing very well. It's like paying higher rate income tax for high earners.
So you're gonna give up betfair and go back to your boring 'computer-based job' ?....I don't think so!
So you're gonna give up betfair and go back to your boring 'computer-based job' ?....I don't think so!
The big problem with this new pc charge is its not a flat 40% . If it was just on the yearly profit then it wouldnt be so bad , £100k profit would become £60k . The problem occurs with losing weeks not being taken int account . For a pre-race punter like myself i will have several losing weeks in a year , so a could make £200k from my winning weeks and £100k lose from my losing weeks . This still makes £100k profit but now im paying 80k pc tax . To have a tax which is in effect 80% is vitually impossible to overcome and totally unfair .
Mr Baboon, 250k isn't that much if you split it over 5 years, lets say he makes 50k a year, a good wage yes but presumably he's worked hard at it.
now betfair want to take 60% of gross profits(turns out to be more like 70% on net profit) .
his 50k a year dream job has suddenly turned into 15k a year, below minimum wage, why shouldn't he go back to his old job?
now betfair want to take 60% of gross profits(turns out to be more like 70% on net profit) .
his 50k a year dream job has suddenly turned into 15k a year, below minimum wage, why shouldn't he go back to his old job?
Of course he might go back to his old job. Maybe he will find a way of increasing his winnings, who knows? But a story about someone who left work and made over £250 tax free doing something he loves is hardly going to get many people reaching for the tissues and, to his credit, the op has acknowledged this.
Mr Baboon - the problem is that it's based on how much you've made in the past not about how much you'll make in the future. imagine you'd been in your job for 4 years doing the same thing earning 60k a year. the government taxed you 20% of your earnings. the government then announces that anyone who's been doing that job for 4 years or more will now be taxed at between 40% to 60% depending on how good you are at your job (the better you are the more you get taxed). in the meantime someone else doing exactly the same thing as you joins the company and does exactly the same job as you, but only gets taxed 20%.
this is the major inequity.
china castle - have you paid the pc before? it won't work like that if your winning weeks and losing weeks are distributed throughout the year. i'm assuming it will work in exactly the same way as previous where you will only pay when your lifetime profit:total charges ratio is under 40%. as such a winning week, followed by an equal losing week, followed by an equal winning week will mean PC is only paid on the first week.
this is the major inequity.
china castle - have you paid the pc before? it won't work like that if your winning weeks and losing weeks are distributed throughout the year. i'm assuming it will work in exactly the same way as previous where you will only pay when your lifetime profit:total charges ratio is under 40%. as such a winning week, followed by an equal losing week, followed by an equal winning week will mean PC is only paid on the first week.
incidentally anyone want to price up the chance of the PC portal being updated to reflect the new charges?
i'll give it a go:
yes: 1.3
no: 2.7
(i need the overround to pay the pc)
I totally sympathise with Total Bosman.If betfair are interested in retaining such customers but still increasing profits I suggest the following:- First £500 weekly profit at 20% pc,remaining profit at 40% or 60% depending upon criteria.An allowance against pc to be made for losing weeks. This would ensure long term clients would continue to receive a reasonable income before the higher rates kick in and would resolve the losing weeks problem.On the other hand if betfair want to get rid of such customers completely then it is game over.The above to be subject to possible tweaking but is offered as a compromise to help all parties.
i have never in any circles of bussiness seen such an imposing bussiness turn around policy that takes so much off so few delivered in such a careless and heartless manner in a form that looks like a draft wrote by a spoilt child as the latest amendment to the premium charge.
except of course for the black dot that handed out to unlucky pirates in treasure island lol
DStyle your comment @ 9:43
china castle - have you paid the pc before? it won't work like that if your winning weeks and losing weeks are distributed throughout the year. i'm assuming it will work in exactly the same way as previous where you will only pay when your lifetime profit:total charges ratio is under 40%. as such a winning week, followed by an equal losing week, followed by an equal winning week will mean PC is only paid on the first week.
I worked out my pc last year starting at 40% and though I had generated around 25% in commission (overall) and no 20% pc charges, I would have ended up paying an additional 30% of my NET profit (after commission) because of how my results fell! How many people seriously have winning and losing weeks nicely "distributed throughout the year"? Maybe traders, I don't know? But for us back or lay only bettors it is going to be very tough going! This is why I was asking betfair to increase their PC payment dates from a weekly basis to something less volatile like a month or ideally more. Or some kind of rebate. The liquidity providers are going to be hit badly by this, not just traders!
china castle - have you paid the pc before? it won't work like that if your winning weeks and losing weeks are distributed throughout the year. i'm assuming it will work in exactly the same way as previous where you will only pay when your lifetime profit:total charges ratio is under 40%. as such a winning week, followed by an equal losing week, followed by an equal winning week will mean PC is only paid on the first week.
I worked out my pc last year starting at 40% and though I had generated around 25% in commission (overall) and no 20% pc charges, I would have ended up paying an additional 30% of my NET profit (after commission) because of how my results fell! How many people seriously have winning and losing weeks nicely "distributed throughout the year"? Maybe traders, I don't know? But for us back or lay only bettors it is going to be very tough going! This is why I was asking betfair to increase their PC payment dates from a weekly basis to something less volatile like a month or ideally more. Or some kind of rebate. The liquidity providers are going to be hit badly by this, not just traders!
I like your post Bosman because i like you and many others fall into this "successful gambler" category that Betfair seems to be ignoring. I'm on £215k lifetime so got a bit of time to go but basically my dream job is all but over. My charge % is 22.58 and i dont win every week, have 2 or 3 losing months a year, no fast pictures and no bots. When i reach 250k Betfair lose me forever and 10k+ commission every year. I only really bet in running so at the moment betduck is not a viable option for my main sport - rugby. Maybe Betfair might re think things but i doubt it...
catfleppo Joined: 22 Feb 07
Replies: 129 19 Jul 11 06:45
Total, what do you mean by 'win £9'? If that is your net winnings after commission then betfair won't take 60% of it. If it is your gross winnings then it is a bit misleading.
They will, they'll just take it in different stages
Replies: 129 19 Jul 11 06:45
Total, what do you mean by 'win £9'? If that is your net winnings after commission then betfair won't take 60% of it. If it is your gross winnings then it is a bit misleading.
They will, they'll just take it in different stages
Oh,I see what you mean.. who looks at net winnings after commission when discussing charges though?
The number on the screen is £9, then there's commission, then there's PC the next week.
The charges are based on the number on the screen one way or another.
The number on the screen is £9, then there's commission, then there's PC the next week.
The charges are based on the number on the screen one way or another.
Good of you to post, TB. I think your skills are wholly transferable over there and I wish you luck, although I'd expect your margins to be down a bit as you have to give away some value across the spread to get matched (for now).
What bf should realise that, as your skills are transferable, it is they that have ridden on the back of your success, not the other way round. It is our money, not theirs, that is at risk every time we press submit and they should think themselves lucky to have it as a withdrawal is only a click away.
There is no BF magic, it's just an exchange.
What bf should realise that, as your skills are transferable, it is they that have ridden on the back of your success, not the other way round. It is our money, not theirs, that is at risk every time we press submit and they should think themselves lucky to have it as a withdrawal is only a click away.
There is no BF magic, it's just an exchange.
Harry Morgan,would my suggestion on having the 20% pc continue for£500weekly(or thereabouts) then increase to the higher amount,with an appropriate allowance for losing weeks be a possible alternative do you think or am I on the wrong wavelength?
TB,
I think you should be grateful that you have made so much over the past few years. You wrote:
So, because I play one or two markets a week, and they last long enough to recover mistakes, I generally emerge with a profit. I don’t think this strike-rate is unnatural over such a small number of markets, I’m just consistent.
From today Betfair want to take more of my profit than I get myself.
You targeted markets where the anomaly existed. Playing long term 4 day markets meant that the charging of commission on net winning per market was hugely in your benefit.
I started on here playing the horses. Over the four days of your golf tournament I might bet on 150 or more horseraces. I would win some (and pay commission on those markets) and then lose some. If the golf market was split into 150 time defined markets settled every few minutes not lasting 'last long enough to recover mistakes' you would lose when you made a bad decision and pay commission every time you made a good decision.
Every 150 horse markets at even money 51.3% of the time to break even after commission. Trading a four day market that calculates commission at the end you only need to win 50.00001% to show a profit at the end of the tournament.
You are now complaining Betfair want 40% of what you win in long term markets in commisison. But if you had played short term markets you would probably have been paying well over that in normal commission anyway.
I think you should be grateful that you have made so much over the past few years. You wrote:
So, because I play one or two markets a week, and they last long enough to recover mistakes, I generally emerge with a profit. I don’t think this strike-rate is unnatural over such a small number of markets, I’m just consistent.
From today Betfair want to take more of my profit than I get myself.
You targeted markets where the anomaly existed. Playing long term 4 day markets meant that the charging of commission on net winning per market was hugely in your benefit.
I started on here playing the horses. Over the four days of your golf tournament I might bet on 150 or more horseraces. I would win some (and pay commission on those markets) and then lose some. If the golf market was split into 150 time defined markets settled every few minutes not lasting 'last long enough to recover mistakes' you would lose when you made a bad decision and pay commission every time you made a good decision.
Every 150 horse markets at even money 51.3% of the time to break even after commission. Trading a four day market that calculates commission at the end you only need to win 50.00001% to show a profit at the end of the tournament.
You are now complaining Betfair want 40% of what you win in long term markets in commisison. But if you had played short term markets you would probably have been paying well over that in normal commission anyway.
Excellent point, frog. Another example of what a blunt and inequitable charge the PC is.
An allowance would help but I would find 20% hard to pay. Plus it would be hard to forcast - added to forcasting future profit/loss (near impossible). But they need to do something or risk losing customers.
It's totally irrelevant how long a contest is. There are people using bots to place just as many bets in a horse race as most will place during a golf tournament.
The result unfolding slower doesn't mean there are more bets placed on the event as the market also unfolds slower.
The result unfolding slower doesn't mean there are more bets placed on the event as the market also unfolds slower.
Any charging structure will create anomalies. Even with the PC it is still favourable to trade and play long term markets than to punt in short term markets. The risk is lower (as TB says) and you still only pay commission at the end if you win overall.
How many winning racing punters over the years would have preferred to pay 5% of their net profits after 4 days of betting rather than normal commission on every winning race? It would be a no brainer. Now they are saying 40% rather than 5% it is a much closer decision.
How many winning racing punters over the years would have preferred to pay 5% of their net profits after 4 days of betting rather than normal commission on every winning race? It would be a no brainer. Now they are saying 40% rather than 5% it is a much closer decision.
True Lori but it does increase the likelihood of going all green on a market. Take cricket: T20 - win some lose some; 5 day test - rarely lose.
I would say T20 is a perfect example of a shorter event where more bets are placed.
There's a betting opportunity after each ball in T20, while in a test they only come up every 20-30 minutes.
The answer frog is that it should be an amount per bet, not per time period.
There's a betting opportunity after each ball in T20, while in a test they only come up every 20-30 minutes.
The answer frog is that it should be an amount per bet, not per time period.
Lori, you are correct. It is not the time the market runs for but the style of play and the opportunities to trade out. Even with the PC it is still favourable to trade markets than to punt in markets leaving open positions. It is just easier to get in and out of a market without a bot in longer term markets like cricket and golf.
Fair enough, maybe my impression of horse racing traders is false, as it's about the only type of event I don't get involved in very often.
Total Bosman,
Enjoyed the read. Thank you for taking the time.
Enjoyed the read. Thank you for taking the time.
nbd proposal is a little fairer you should be able to make a certain amount per week at your existing pc level say £500, then they could increase it to 40% and then 60% for over 1k, i would pay 20% pc like i have been doing for years and if i had a good week be asked to pay more, but as it stands i had a good day yesterday and won £300 i will have £200 ish of that taken away, obviously that isn't viable long term.
if i was lucky enough to win 1k this week i will get about £350
if i won 1k on a sliding scale say 20% for the first £500 and 40% for the next £500 i would get to keep £670 ish(surely that is acceptable for the customer and enables Betfair to profit from that customer)
if i was lucky enough to win more than 1k i would be happy to move into the 60% bracket because it has been a good week and it doesn't feel as bad
but when it's over 60% on everything you make it is obvious every bet you place is offering no value and you can not sustain that unless you are massively advantaged in some way.
if i was lucky enough to win 1k this week i will get about £350
if i won 1k on a sliding scale say 20% for the first £500 and 40% for the next £500 i would get to keep £670 ish(surely that is acceptable for the customer and enables Betfair to profit from that customer)
if i was lucky enough to win more than 1k i would be happy to move into the 60% bracket because it has been a good week and it doesn't feel as bad
but when it's over 60% on everything you make it is obvious every bet you place is offering no value and you can not sustain that unless you are massively advantaged in some way.
Although still imperfect, I do agree with the incremental suggestion as regards a step towards greater fairness. Governments have tinkered with tax for centuries and the incremental (if that's the right term) tax is, by far the most widely accepted.
Eddie - Rixy wasn't going as far to suggest a graduation of the commission system entirely, which, like you, I'd disagree with. He just simply suggested an amendment to the new PC structure with a weekly 'personal allowance' threshold above which PC would be charged, allowing people to make some sort of reasonable income before being taxed to the hilt. It would, I think, be a fair concession to allow people to still make a living, or aspire to make a living, while still extracting a big premium from those who make excessive risk-free profits.
Frog2 - I'm not complaining that Betfair want 40% of what I win. I'm complaining that they want 60% of what I win. There's a huge difference financially and also in principle, that they want more of my profit than I get myself. At 40% I MIGHT be able to carry on, at 60% I don't see how I can. I didn't deliberately target any anomalies in the system, my choice of specialising in golf came about before I'd really considered the charging structure. I accept that these anomalies existed and in my original post say that one of the reasons I accepted PC1 was it redressed this somewhat. But 60% is excessive.
Frog2 - I'm not complaining that Betfair want 40% of what I win. I'm complaining that they want 60% of what I win. There's a huge difference financially and also in principle, that they want more of my profit than I get myself. At 40% I MIGHT be able to carry on, at 60% I don't see how I can. I didn't deliberately target any anomalies in the system, my choice of specialising in golf came about before I'd really considered the charging structure. I accept that these anomalies existed and in my original post say that one of the reasons I accepted PC1 was it redressed this somewhat. But 60% is excessive.
Manchester, Having read some of the debates on the new charges it seemed that a compromise along the lines I suggested would be easy to implement and would go some way to enabling 'medium' size winners to continue whilst still giving betfair a much bigger profit.I think this would be a much fairer way to go forward without ailienating longterm customers who are or will be affected by these changes.Obviously we do not know betfairs objectives-they may just want to be rid of these once and for all!!
TB, I am no way suggesting you targeted anomalies in the charging system. But I think you are against 60% because it seems like a massive increase. Commission if you pay it on lots of short term markets is a 'hidden' charge that is harder to notice. Being told you have to top up to 60% is obviously a massive shock. At last check I paid 68% of what I have won on here in commission. I am not complaining about paying it because it has happened over the years of mainly outright betting with some systems working and others failing with all the time commission chipping away at it. You have had a good run. The way you bet and your skill means you have paid less than 5% of your total profit on Betfair to Betfair. Had I only had to paid that much commission as well my overall profit for the last ten years would be almost treble what it actually is. If I had been earning that much and was suddenly told that I was about to only get a third this year as to what I got last year I would be upset as well. But I am happy to have paid what I have paid because without Betfair I would have been stuck trying to get on at the bookies.
tb,i havnt read the whole post so sorry if youve answred this question already,but why dont you just open another bank account in a family members name and start a new betunfair account,i cant see the problem with doing this.
They could just do something really simple and stop the use of the API. Just stick to basics. That would cut down the stress on the servers by like 99.99% and allow the betfair bot to totally clean up thus making them more money. With this they could scrap PC2 altogether and make losing accounts pay 0% Comms, winning accs over 50k lifetime 10%, 1million lifetime 20% - Job done.
No negative press, or sentiment........well ok apart from all the bot users, but that's not really betting or trading anyhow.
No negative press, or sentiment........well ok apart from all the bot users, but that's not really betting or trading anyhow.
jme,What a good idea.Betfair could use their own bots or agree with a limited number of major bot users an agreement on a certain % of profit payable to betfair.Much too simple.
What's all the commotion going on about bots? What's the difference if you sit in front of the computer and want to bet on a horse or a bot placing a bet when you're at work or asleep on the same horse, for the same amount? What's the big deal?
here's the deal:
i want a system whereby i don't pay any pc. whatever it is that i'm not doing should be liable for massive PC charges, or alternatively PC should only kick in just above a threshold which corresponds to how much i make. charge anyone who makes more double.
that would be perfect.
i want a system whereby i don't pay any pc. whatever it is that i'm not doing should be liable for massive PC charges, or alternatively PC should only kick in just above a threshold which corresponds to how much i make. charge anyone who makes more double.
that would be perfect.
oh, and if i have a really good run, up the PC threshold please, or if i find a new way of making money, can you make that method exempt from PC as well please.
1.01 Layer
True Lori but it does increase the likelihood of going all green on a market. Take cricket: T20 - win some lose some; 5 day test - rarely lose.
Correct, I hardly ever green up on a horse race (pre-off) but usually always do on a golf tournament.
True Lori but it does increase the likelihood of going all green on a market. Take cricket: T20 - win some lose some; 5 day test - rarely lose.
Correct, I hardly ever green up on a horse race (pre-off) but usually always do on a golf tournament.
Interestingly, those using retrieval type staking pay much higher amounts of commission that those that don't.
Martigale should be the way to go to save commission
Martigale should be the way to go to save commission
Many alternative suggestions to these new charges are being put forward as a 'fairer' method than that which has been introduced.Does anyone think betfair may consider tweaking the new charges or are they cast in stone with them pleased that some of these winners will disappear altogether?
Betfair will probably look at it in a years time to tweak and catch any winners that slipped thru the net this time. They'll be over the moon if the winners move away as their aim is to become a 365 type sportsbook.
Once innovators in betting now sadly just poor imitators.
Once innovators in betting now sadly just poor imitators.
frog2
19 Jul 11 12:36
Joined:
01 Feb 08
| Topic/replies: 183 | Blogger: frog2's blog
TB, I am no way suggesting you targeted anomalies in the charging system. But I think you are against 60% because it seems like a massive increase. Commission if you pay it on lots of short term markets is a 'hidden' charge that is harder to notice. Being told you have to top up to 60% is obviously a massive shock. At last check I paid 68% of what I have won on here in commission. I am not complaining about paying it because it has happened over the years of mainly outright betting with some systems working and others failing with all the time commission chipping away at it. You have had a good run. The way you bet and your skill means you have paid less than 5% of your total profit on Betfair to Betfair. Had I only had to paid that much commission as well my overall profit for the last ten years would be almost treble what it actually is. If I had been earning that much and was suddenly told that I was about to only get a third this year as to what I got last year I would be upset as well. But I am happy to have paid what I have paid because without Betfair I would have been stuck trying to get on at the bookies.
But if they told people years ago when they started on here that trading out or greening up or having a high strike rate might mean you have to pay 40-60% of your profit in the future I think most people would have played somewhat differently. Thats why its unfair because its based on past performance not what might happen in the future.
Well no-one knew that years ago, did they? Everyone knew however that the commission structure was subject to change.
perhaps if all the winners for a known good reason move off betfair then losers will have more chance winning money against other losers but i cant see how they will have a better chance when they too will still be on 5% comms, maybe they need to get some quick business studies done before they end up on a bookmakers site somewhere breaking rocks on there heads, tee hee
whilst on the subject of having to pay th new premium charge, in the country there is no need for pro gamblers too pay tax as its a law that the common person has had for some time, windfalls or wins my fellow britons are not expected to hand over such gains, taxing them at betting source at this level has never been done since the black market days before legal bookmaking, what would the recent 161,000,
000 think if they were told there losing 60% as camelot need more players, they wouldnt be tickled pink as they said they was when they won and i doubt all the new payers of the premium charge are tickled pink today so lets please have some kind thoughts for britos losing windfalls .
000 think if they were told there losing 60% as camelot need more players, they wouldnt be tickled pink as they said they was when they won and i doubt all the new payers of the premium charge are tickled pink today so lets please have some kind thoughts for britos losing windfalls .
today marks the day of the decimalised or even decimated winner in the uk, boo
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