he big bossman
they say i have to 52k before pay charge but i lost 14k last week but they,now say need to win 57k before pay charge?

The figure they quote you can win as a result of your buffer is the amount you can win assuming a 100% win-rate.  Any losses you have slow down your progress towards the 40% threshold, so you can probably win much more that 57k before incurring the charge.

i very much doubt there will be increased liquidity today, we shall see, liquidity generally has been on a downward spiral on racing since the recession, no fault of betfairs but no fault also of the top winners. perhaps turning betfair into a bookies is the only way to raise margins but cant see betfair having any growth as a bookmaker so it will be interesting to see what happens too the company in the next 6 months, is now the winter of our discontent ?

I actually if i were lucky enough too pay the top level of pc charge would rather pay %50-%50

most patnerships are based on that mark-up and betfair have openly expressed that they need the money to raise promoting new customers, to say winners should hand back more than the exchange has earned them is unfair, if they have to give up %60 and are contributing a greater part of there profit then surely they deserve a return in the future for there huge contribution and perhaps the best way is a share pay-out in the future say if the company was sold or a set point in the future!

It's not a question of how much is taken from the exchange it's the rate at which happens.  If you were betfair and you had two customers one who made £1m and generated £50k commission and one who made £1m and generated £650k commission you would want to do something about the first one without deterring the second.

It was merely an illustration but if this makes you happier [;)]

betfair was built up on the belief that winning was ok and acceptable, that you would have a better chance of winning on betfair than any other betting platform in the world!

this has proven too be the case , just as the model always predicted winners so has it come to be, perfect in its core theory!

now betfair are basically saying they want all the revenue that falls into there many customer accounts
or resides there and even backdate winnings which seems that it could be challenged legally as they promoted there bussiness on the basis that winners were welcome, now for all to see they are not

This whole discussion is predicated on the premise that BF has some right to the money going through the exchange.

Suggest that the NYSE, NASDAQ or LSE has some right to the money going through their exchanges and you will be laughed out of the room.

And for the umpteenth time, the exchange is extremely profitable. Certainly the most profitable business operated by a publically traded company in the UK, by a large margin.

BF's problem is that it has and continues to waste huge amounts on one gaming failure after another. And as a consequence needs to suck the exchange dry in order to both fund these failures and keep figures that won't crash its stock price.

under the conditions of my last post betfair need too , get the first class customers out the cargo hold , promise them some return and buy them a drink, find a new captain and staff quickly, make public there set on a true course, avoid all the icebergs, and certainly if wanting to become a submarine(bookmakers) then use another vessel fit for the job, h.m.s betfair is a ship(exchange) and trying to do both will fill it with water and sink it for good!

pxb
Date Joined: 07 Jun 10 Add contact | Send message
When: 18 Jul 11 11:35 Joined: Date Joined: 07 Jun 10 | Topic/replies: 1,580 | Blogger: pxb's blog
This whole discussion is predicated on the premise that BF has some right to the money going through the exchange.

Suggest that the NYSE, NASDAQ or LSE has some right to the money going through their exchanges and you will be laughed out of the room.

And for the umpteenth time, the exchange is extremely profitable. Certainly the most profitable business operated by a publically traded company in the UK, by a large margin.

............................

To compare Betfair to the NYSE is not comparing like with like. The NYSE provides a means for investments. It is essential for the running of the world economy. I think it bars insider trading, fast picture playing (getting company results early and trading on them etc). I also think it charges per transaction not on profit per market. For as long as capitalism exists it will be required.

Betfair is a gambling 'exchange' allowing insider trading, fast picture playing, clock beaters to keep their profits, and has a non transaction based charging structure. It is a leisure service that needs new customers all the time. Left it the state it was 5 years ago with no curbs on data requests or high margin profitable fleecers and ccts I doubt it would even exist today.

The root cause of the problem facing BF is that in all its core markets it has probably tapped all of the likely switchers to a betting exchange model. This is best exemplified by the absence of progress over the 10 years of BF's failure to increase its market share of the horse racing market which seems static at around 7%. Talk of diverting funds to find marginal new players in this area obscures the fact that any newbies are only just in line with the attrition rate due to normal factors such as death, bankruptcy, disillusionment and sport switching.

This leads us to the second problem which its inability to foresee how different strategies might impinge on its cost base, its encouragement of the trading and automated player and a pricing strategy which fails to reflect the differences both in costs and profitability of different strategies.

At first glance, a commission model which favoured usage seemed reasonable but it became clear that low freqency straight bettors were at a disadvantage compared to the high t/over low margin/low risk bot players and the PC was an attempt to level the playing field. The claim that the need was to increase profit/ reduce cash out in order to fund new customer marketing was disingenuous to say the least. There is no evidence that BF have used funds to this end. Indeed, I strongly believe that chasing the marginal customer is an increasingly expensive and futile strategy in any event.

The reality is that as a platform provider there is a limit to the amount of profit possible within the market and it is clear that this is insufficient to fund new products, especially failures,to expand into geographic areas ( resistance)and  to support market expectations of profit growth. Bf has resorted to increasing margins against existing customers to deliver against expectations.

Now BF has planted the seed of doubt that the exchange model is not what everyone had hoped and is looking at the traditional bookmaker risk model. This is a strategic mistake of massive proportions because BF has no edge in this area - indeed it will be at a disadvantage. It will also considerably weaken its rating.

A lack of clear strategic thinking is what BF is suffering from and things will not get better until someone gets a grip.

Feck N. Eejit
Date Joined: 10 Jan 02
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18 Jul 11 12:08
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Left it the state it was 5 years ago with no curbs on data requests or high margin profitable fleecers and ccts I doubt it would even exist today.

Why frog? What difference has attaching leeches to the leeches made?

.............

You would still have people hammering 50 markets 15 times a second to see what was the queue and trade accordingly. Infact more and more people would have done this causing millions to be wasted by Betfair processing all these requests. Anything that encourages straight punting and discourages high frequency trading has got to be a good thing.

betfairs major ethos and could be legal problem too is they encourage people to bet on a site where winning and making profit is possible and welcomed, then when this happens take it back and treat all money that is placed in there accounts as there own which is acting like a bookmaker, confict of interest on a billion pound turnover scale, impressive

would betcon be a great new name for them

if the shares keep dropping, anyone have and predictions what the next pc rate will be

along the current projection it could be %80 back to them in the next 6 months!

bf_fananatic

do you think BF should charge nobody anything - allow all 'exiting funds' to go to winnners, and for them to be bankrupt in 1 year, and the exchange to close?

clearly they are entitle to make a profit? they are not a charity... if they take too much they risk a competitor gaining ground - so there is some policing of their pricing, by market forces.

you seem to suggest BF have not rights to the funds of losing customers - but then also seem to suggest the winners have some divine right to those deposits.

I am not quite sure how you can suggest a customer has the right to it, but betfair who built the platform don't?

because magician, the fact less people have less money too spend in a recession is not the fault of the winners on a platform designed for winning, cant betfair open a seperate bookmakers internet site as a seperate business to gain more money? betfair cant claim to welcome winners if they keep taking more and more off them when they spend to much, float at wrong time, or make a mess of management or business direction.

bf_fantastic

below is Betfair core exchange T/O for the last 16 quaters and my estimate for the next one also.... a decline in direct exchange turnover and revenue, which is also growing cannot be the driver of the PC - because quite simply it is not delcining.


Q1 FY08     6,526,061,614
Q2 FY08     7,262,034,494
Q3 FY08     6,686,642,262
Q4 FY08     7,808,046,951
Q1 FY09     8,376,222,402
Q2 FY09     7,800,254,276
Q3 FY09     7,953,563,495
Q4 FY09     9,345,545,640
Q1 FY10     9,481,629,199
Q2 FY10     10,200,269,809
Q3 FY10     8,929,361,169
Q4 FY10     10,569,411,981
Q1 FY11     11,868,891,506
Q2 FY11     10,911,834,250
Q3 FY11     10,785,382,204
Q4 FY11     12,022,343,051
Q1 FY12 ***     13,270,112,156

Feck, very few old style gamblers will be paying the charge. And if they are is it not a price worse paying for liquidity and accounts staying open as opposed to the bookies shutting them down after 5 minutes? Before Betfair I was just gambling and accounts were restricted everywhere. Then Betfair came out and I could get on again at better prices. Commission was always unfair against position players but the overall value was here. Then came the CCTs hammering the exchange further reducing margins on here. The first PC made it clear for all to see that some people were making a lot of money on here for very little to risk. Personal circumstances mean I no longer have time to study form so at the moment I play around with a few trading CCT robots. I think this is what BF want to discourage but from the start them have let it grow and grow. If they can restrict the draining by the CCTs (or encourage them to add churn liquidity) I think this place will improve again for genuine punters.

if betfair are turning that much money over, whats there problem? are they keeping there profits in the backyard with the gate open?

have you got the figures for greyhound racing?

betfair is ready for the world but is the world ready for betfair!