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I've got a new suggestion that maybe even everyone on here might just agree with.
Let's rename the PC to " The throwing out the baby with the bathwater tax ". Btw Jimmy, many on here would say that I'm malfunctioning quite enough already. |
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Rocket
I have said repeatedly that I agree that the PC is flawed in its structure, as it catches people it's not intended to catch. Rebates should apply, the bands should be inflation proofed etc etc But the " big" winners are in no danger of going on the dole. Trust me. |
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Bayes
Even you wouldn't be dexterous enough to programme my complex psyche. |
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That's fair enough but that wasn't really what you said in the post I was replying to.
FINE AS FROG HAIR 02 Jul 11 20:47 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 2,751 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog why would it ever force people to stop betting entirely.? That is I don't understand the " I'm ruined" whine. |
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Rocket
Take it as a given that I'm only ever talking about the "millionaire" winners on here. |
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Contrarian
In answer to your question I made a very large chunk of my monies by inventing an everyday, low tech consumer product that probably most , if not all, on here have either come across and/or used in their everyday lives. Unfortunately patent licencing confidentiality clauses do not permit me to reveal myself as the patent source of this particular product until the expiry of the underlying patent(s), which is, fortunate for me, a few more years away. Anyway if I was able to and did reveal it, it would surely only p!ss off my various detractors on here even more and be counter-productive to my royalty flow. But it is a very, very good example of how quite often those closest and most knowledgeable about something, often can't see the woods for the trees. |
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Mankini?
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I wish.
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Actually Bayes, I think it's extremely hilarious if you consider your mankini suggestion in conjunction with the last sentence of my relevant post.
Very Freudian. |
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People such as Fine as frog hair make me so angry. They appear to have no idea of what is actually going on here. I'll be paying 40% premium charge if i stay with betfair after 18th july. I virtually never trade, never use a bot and do not have fast pictures. I'm a punter pure and simple. Just because I'm good at it shouldn't mean i get 6/1 on a horse everyone else is getting 10/1 on. Betfair get a massive amount of commission out of me. I don't believe they should be penalising me further. The biggest myth of all though is that this in some way helps the ordinary punter. It doesn't - it just increases betfair profits. It's quite clear the Premium charge has been increased purely to try and stop the slide on the share price. It's not a long term decision, it's a knee jerk reaction to a bad few months. Hopefully purple or someone else will step up to the mark. this virtual monopoly situation cannot be good for punters.
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when i make it (presumably there will be more than 500 in the club by then) perhaps i'll ask betfair for a job.....
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asparagus
Could you tell us what your level of charges to GP is before any PC ? Maybe you are one of the smaller fishes being unfortunately and unfairly being caught up in the PC net . It's flawed I agree. |
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In fact I've always been waiting for someone to say on here " So you made all your monies outside of gambling. You mean you only involved yourself in drugs, prostitution & pornography. Left the gambling operations to others ? "
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premium charge definitely doesnt just catch out traders. ive paid it and i virtually never trade anything. ive not paid much, just a few hundred altogether, but it proves that the charge doesnt just affect the big traders.
the big flaw in the charge is you dont get it back. you have a good run and get charged, but then you start losing you dont suddenly get a premium uncharge! |
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i think though if you arent a massive player you can get around it if you can be bothered with the hassle. ie backing a load of stuff on here you think will lose, that you can arb or at least break even elsewhere. ok people will say what if they all win on here, but in reality that isnt really going to happen. especially if you are a shrewd punter, which presumably you must be to be in good profit here (without trading) anyway.
but i naturally had a bad run, went back below the PC threshold, so never bothered doing that. |
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sorry that was a bit of topic.
i think the new charges are exceptionally unfair. and the old ones are too. the whole point of betfair was to give everybody a chance. people were actively encouraged by betfair to try to develop their own winning strategies. we've nearly all tried to find our own golden systems. most have failed. but its not right to punish the ones who suceeded, especially at such absurd rates like 40 and 60%. betfair arent the government, yet they are effectively taxing peoples income. it may seem like a good idea, but surely the only long term outcome is people earn enough to quit then leave for good. theres never really been any proper competition to betfair, but one day some multi-millionaire businessman or company which real clout will have a go at their own exchange. and will probably kill off betfair. then they will no doubt be left wondering why they didnt show a tiny bit of loyalty to their customers. |
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Traders and arbers make all markets more efficient and provide better prices to both buyers and sellers. This is true of all markets including bf.
BF is driving these people out and there can only be one reason, which is they want to take this role for themselves. I know Betting Promotions would love several hundred shrewdies to feck off. lol There are sharp minds at bf, but none of them seem to work for the promotions dept. It took them a week in the recent tennis promotion to figure out that people could bet on very short priced favourites in multiples and grab themselves some free money - $200 in my case. |
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Fine as Frog Hair, my charges have generally been around the 20% mark since the premium charge was first introduced. Some weeks i pay plenty and other weeks i don't. As a gambler I obviously have good and bad weeks (tho clearly more good than bad). The first half of last year i paid an awful lot of Premium charge. Then I had a relatively poor run in the 2nd half of the year so haven't paid it much since as have remained a bit over the 20% on charges anyway. Obviously have got no rebate but i knew that would happen. Under the new system it appears I'll now be on 40% according to what I've read and been told by betfair.
I appreciate that I've made good money out of gambling and wouldn't get sympathy off many people, but surely on the other hand betfair are killing the dream nearly all punters have by saying that we do not want you winning good money off us unless you give a massive proportion back to us. Betfair undoubtedly already get enough money out of me that my business cannot be doing them any long term harm. It's just an excuse to increase their profits by charging us more money. At some point in the future it will apply to more and more people as they'll do anything to keep the shareholders happy. The only way to stop this is if the virtual monopoly situation changes. |
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Yep you do sound a bit hard done by.
I think BF has overstepped the mark with your type of betting profile. |
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Fine as frog hair, glad you agree! To be honest what frustrates me more than anything on this is that people tend to believe the betfair propaganda that they are only hitting people who are damaging their business. It's quite clearly not the case. They've just got incredibly greedy imo.
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Or incredibly clumsy.
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well, think there's only been 1 or 2 posters responding here to Contrarian's original question so may as well chip in with my tuppence worth. i'll be leaving betfair for good after 7 years or so of full time betting. the funny thing is, i'm not really bitter about this charge, for me the writing has been on the wall for a long time, and it won't stop here either, how long till that 250k figure is reduced? i'm not and have never been a big player so won't pretend that my business will be missed. i already work part time in another business so will focus my attentions there and will monitor the purple place to see if in running liquidity picks up there. like Contrarian said in the original post, affected punters have lost control of their destiny(if they ever had it) and when that happens and you lose faith in the system - its time to move on.
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The bank man, I will be moving on too. I did so before but purple didn't really step up to the mark so i came back 2 months later. With 20% it was borderline for me whether to stay or go so. at 40% i have no option. When I'm at home it will be purple and when I'm on course it will be on course bookmakers. The purple mobile betting app is not good enough so it's back to the days of carrying cash. It means no laying when I'm on course other than trying to get a few bets matched in the morning (not my preferred way) but it's better than giving betfair 40%. I may well end up making less overall than i currently do but it will be better than waiting for that wednesday lunchtime each week when my account balance will be smashed to pieces. Doesn't put you in a good frame of mind for betting.
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If you're one of the Betfair 480, what do you intend to do next?
I will stop to.....I'm like asparagus, i don't trade,i make 1 bet and hold it to the end of the game.. I last pay PC in March after a big win in 1 week, it takem me 3 months to win this PC money back..I pay about 14% of my profit in commis (with 20% pc) this goes up by 6%, but now it goes from 14% to 40% it is just to much i could have 1 big winning week, pay a sh!t load of PC money, and find i haven't made this PC money back after 1 year of betting, why would i take this risk |
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FAFH,
Thanks for the reply. Very interesting. |
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Nairda.
As a purely prematch bettor why were you using betfair anyway? Surely the asians and pinnacle would have provided a better alternative than betfair with a 20% pc, let alone a 40% one. |
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Continuing in the same vein as asparagus' post - I am an opinion punter who has a commission to profits ratio of around 30% who will be eligible for the new PC - I would make the following comments
Given that I don't use bots or generate an excessive amount of network traffic to & from the BF site, has the operation of my account really been a burden for BF as by definition I would have paid at least 107,000 pounds of commission to them to date (to be eligible for the new PC / given 30% ratio above). I have taken all risk to this date and still will bear all risks if I am to lose money at any stage. Being an opinion / form based punter betting before the off, there is clearly large risk of losses for my betting profile. If we defined the ability of a punter as having the lower commission to profits ratio, there would be a number of accounts operating of BF with a higher ability than myself. Given the 250K threshold, I would be punting with a severe handicap compared to smarter accounts to me (if those accounts were younger & as yet under the 250K threshold). Is that equitable? Would I take 10/1 about a horse and then be paid at somewhere between 6/1 and 10/1, and let that figure be determined by factors basically irrelevant to my bet (i.e. my performance betting on other races for that week) Would I also do this when 98-99% of those I bet against do not pay this tax, and some of whom are better punters than me? The betting platform offered to me at BF is, for my purposes basically has the same functionality as 8 years ago when I commenced betting. Will giving BF the profits from my 40% PC enhance my betting experience on BF in any way? Given that around 97% or so of punters already lose to BF, is it equitable that under the new rules ALL consistent winning accounts can win no more that 80 cents in the dollar, and ALL long term successful accounts (250K threshold) can win no more that 60 cents in the dollar. |
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I too will be leaving. 60% deductions for winning an average of £10. No choice but to leave. I am a recreational winner so will try across the road and other bookmakers.
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McChicken_Sandwich you're right ....i don't use betfair for soccer, and will not use betfair after july 18th for other sports
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im still in 2 minds what to do, probably gonna give **** a bit of a go but am worried about in running stuff as that is when markets seem to go empty.
i might have to stay on betfair for a couple of sports that make me good money, purely as have no choice. if only i had the brains to work a bot, but have no idea whatsoever in the workings of these things. if only it was as easy as turning on yr pc and seeing what yr bots have won for u, geez! i bet on normal pics, set my own prices and have no edge apart from a bit of a savvy on what players represent in running. surely these courtside hooverers and bot creators are the ones betfair really should be targeting rather than average joes like me. |
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if they were really interested in "protecting" their recreational punters, maybe they could start by chasing the trap bet filth off the site rather than letting them operate with impunity so long as they get a big enough cut.
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personally I can see myself becoming a better pool player
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Gawler gary, you explained the ludicrous situation we find ourselves in much more eloquently than me. It is a complete scandal imo and very disappointing that the media and alternative betting outlets have not made more of this. The greed of betfair astounds me.
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Sorry asparagus I'm yet to be convinced of your last sentence.
I haven't seen any convincing arguments that greed is BF's sole agenda in inventing the PC. I'm sure they are looking to expand profits in the normal course of business as any company would, but that's a slightly different subject. Most punters naturally are looking at this is a very short term, and dare I say selfish, manner. eg this is going to kill my bottom line starting now. I don't care what is happening to anybody else. It's my future alone I am concerned with. Bugger everybody else. Bf is probably looking at things from a much grander scale and longer term perspective. |
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If I bet on the outcome of a coin flip and won I'd only get paid out at less then 2/5. How much more of a grander scale do you think this should be understood FAFH? Multiply by 100, 1000 or 10,000 for the long term perspective.
Feckin seed |
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Not true winning.
That payout is only the case on one toss. Rember the PC is a percentage of gross profits, being total wins minus total losses, before any charges. |
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Ok, carry on, nothing to see here then. I'd forgotten how irrelevant I could be. Are you salaried or paid per word FAFH?
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Why not address the point I made ?
You're the one who made an incorrect statement. |
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You're obviously paid per word and churning to make up the 60% deduction in your pay check
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Or are you a one bet wonder ?
Btw I'm no salarman or even a wordsmith, just someone who doesn't jump to extreme conclusions in situations where I do not have all the relevant facts and figures available to me. |