anyone remember FINEFORM

1st 1st cd ,

13pts was a maximum rating but i think he brought another book out with some other factors to take into account

showing your age now matee ,did work tho the other was first time win then out within 5 days back again pretty good that was on the flat too

first book i ever bought on horse racing and not too bad a book for a novice,never got the second book so dont know the system.

The Fineform Rating Formula, by Clive Holt
"The formula is both swift & effective in rating runners on the flat & over
the jumps. The combination of two positive potential winning factors - good
recent form & proven ability - is utilised in the ratings.
Points are awarded as listed below for each of the runners' previous TWO
OUTINGS OF THE CURRENT SEASON ONLY.:-
1st 5 points
2nd 3 points
3rd 2 points
4th 1 point
D (disqualified from 1st place) 5 points
Course & Distance (C&D)
C&D 3 points
C.D 3 points
D 2 points
C 1 point
All runners in the race are awarded points according to their previous
achievements, and the runner that is rated the highest TOTAL number of
points is the selection. The maximum total rating that can be achieved is
13 points.
If joint Top Rated an extra 1 point for a distance winner. If still even
the horse nearest the top/bottom of the card is the selection."
You can use the second(third) rated horse for forecasts.
If you are selective and factor in the selections ability to go on the
going, and its proven fitness with a recent run you should be in with a
chance at the finish. Clive Holt supports his formula with numerous
statistics. I find it is a good base to finalise selections., and it often
throws up decent price winners.
The Fineform Maximum Selection i.e. 13 points choices.
By just backing these selections only over the season, everything I have
read indicates you will come out on top. If have also seen this selection
criteria method known as the "Financial Security for Life Formula," amongst
others.

With regards to your betting strategy I would suggest you just do single
bets, although I am sure you have some very good days. Why? Because
professional gamblers only normally bet in singles (I assume they must know
something), and bookmakers are always encouraging multi-bets (I assume they
must know something). E.g. In a Yankee out of 11 bets , if your first horse
loses you lose out on 7 bets, leaving you only with 4 bets left for your
last 3 selections.
For staking I look at the amount I want to win and adjust my stake
accordingly. E.g. I want to win £20 - on a 4/1 chance I bet £5 & on a 2/1
chance I bet £10. I always respect the market so if a horse is a 5/1 - its
chance of winning should be around that, likewise an even money horse
should be 50/50. But then that's where we all look for value!

tidy

there's been other threads if you want to check out Gubbed and stick in Fineform

wasnt there a system in the book were you get the top 3 rated and then back the biggest price of the three,cant recall it exactly.

''calling the swinging magpie'' thread further down, spent a long time especially in the early pages discussing and following fineforms concept

Clive Holt first started advertising his systems in the old Sporting Chronicle Handicap Book.

Basically The Fineform Rating Formula was a system dressed up in book form,
a brilliant idea and he made a fortune out of it. Also, at one time
tipsters couldn't advertise in the Sporting Chronicle or the Sporting Life
(which were the 2 racing daily papers at that time). However, you could advertise a book.

His second book was a re-jig of the first one. I know for fact he sold over 100,000 copies
full-page adverts for years in the sporting press, so work it out
he must have made a million out of that book, and was probably one of the first
millionaire tipsters. In more recent years ISI*** probably made Kevin a million +.

You can still buy this book regularly(unused) on e-bay.

tbf after lucky sods summary, you dont really need the book

Two books :-

Be A Successful Punter
With Fineform as your guide

Profitable Betting Strategies

i followed this in the late 80s early 90s and backed the top rated and had a very good year and backing £100 on each ended up £8k on the flat the year knight of mercy won the stewards cup

but it all went downhill from there the nh was about £3k down and the next flat season didnt make a lot about £600 so gave it up

Financial Security for Life Formula

Yeah , selling his book.

you had to apply common sense to the system though...if as example a selling plater had maximum points, running against a top handicapper with less points..you wouldnt take it literally

so basically you had to work it out yourself then

erm...yeah basically :)

clive was a genuine tipster and ran his racing operation like clockwork he also went racing in the north every day when it was on, he only bet on the flat in the later years and was well respected on course. He did make a lot of money and used to drive around in a jaguar, his little hobby was playing the guitar.
good man and missed by many.

clive was a genuine tipster

Yes he was genuinely rubbish.........another scam merchant posing as the punters friend.

do you know him thin and crispy ? i dowt it else you would have a different opinion, you are one of lifes losers thin just accept it

do you know him No I also didnt know Fred West or Hitler but like Holt I have enough info to form an opinion. Back in the 90's I did a lot of reseach into tipsters. The conclusion on Clive Holt was that if you followed the Fine form formula in the long run you would lose and if you phoned his telephone lines in the long run you would lose money. Holt made most of his money by selling the dream, in his books, that you too could live the live of a pro punter.. Unfortunately it wasn't true just like the extravagant claims he made in his ads..which he confirmed to me when I wrote to him pointing out a discrepancy, were inaccurate.......but no, like Gordon Brown I didn't know what a great bloke he was in private.

I agree with Thin & Crisp. The book was rubbish and must've cost punters an awful lot of money. Nothing more than a scammer dressed up as a tipster.

how wrong you both are, thin you have always had a thing about tipsters, even the good ones, so much negative stuff and not one good word to say about anybody, you didnt agree with his methods no problem about that, the book was writtento help those that lose like yourself.
i used clives book and had a lot of success by adapting some of the points raised in the book.

CJ, you would not have written about clive like that if he was alive but seem to be happy to call him when he is dead.
Clive was the only tipster to fight in court and won the case.

I bought a system in the earlier days from Fineform. Very high profits and a very good strike rate from 5 years past results. When I received the system I had my doubts about it. This is how it worked !! You noted down the horse that was placed 2nd from a list of mainly prestige races at various tracks(Alexandra Stakes etc) and backed them next time out. What I realised was that they where back-fitted from the prevoius 5 years but when applied to the future, flopped badly. Complete con but part of my apprenticeship in betting !!!

CJ 29 Apr 11:10
I agree with Thin & Crisp. The book was rubbish and must've cost punters an awful lot of money. Nothing more than a scammer dressed up as a tipster.

Clueless.

He was a well respected pro punter on the norther circuit for many years.

Not often we agree, know all!

Why was he respected when he sold me and others a back-fitted drivel of a system like I just mentioned !!

vic, if the system had worked for 5 years then it would probably need tweaking, if you used some bits from the system i bet it would still work now, clives original system still works very well for some but not for those who want instant riches without some homework and tweaking.
clive worked very hard on his systems and i can recall many highs including the channon 20/1 winner at york when he was over the moon that he had put it on the line and backed it in the ring to take out a small fortune, and he specilised in the big sprints like the great st wilfred he usually had that race well sorted at big prices.

He started selling his very small book to give ideas to the punters who needed educating, so he didnt start out with any money, the first books sold very little but as it went on punters wanted more from him, so he supplied more.
Buy his books on ebay ect and see why he was reguarded as one of the most successful tipsters and pro punters the country have ever seen.the books were about £15
you will learn a great deal about and understand the game far more than fools like thin.


muqbil,
hi mate how are you.

knowall .nicewon ,i did ok to, he was a goodman , as for tipsters put in michael CALLEN

My opinion about Clive Holt is based on facts not sentiment. In the early 90s I bought the books and researched the main system by going through years of back editions of the Sporting Life and the Racing Post.. While it threw up the occasional good priced winner, if you backed the top rated you would lose, simple as that. This is based on 1000s of races.

I also researched the phone line, along with several others. At the time I worked in telecomms and was able to phone these premium rates lines F.O.C. I phoned his line every day for several months , he also had an update line for the good stuff, dont they all ! Well this also produced a loss.

In his full page ads he claimed that by backing the top two rated by his system he had gone through the card at odds of 1000/1 +. I wrote to him pointing out that to do this would require 64 bets therefore a 1000/1 is really nearer 14/1, so this was false advertising. He wrote back on the reverse of my letter (paper costs money) and agreed, but carried on with the ads.

So what would you call someone who sells a system that loses money , someone who runs phone lines that lose money, someone who knowingly places ads he knows arent true? Scam merchant, Con man? Or a good bloke just trying to help the punter?

I dont doubt that he may have been a successful pro punter but he obviously realised there was far more money to be made selling the dream of the life of a pro punter than actually being one.

What Holt did has been the blue print for many others who have wanted their slice of this lucrative market.

^ a strong a case against...

^ thats right, you've summed up the facts. And another fact, Clive Holt
didn't make a fortune backing horses, he made a fortune selling that book.
And if you go back to his early days with weekly adverts in the old Sporting Chronicle Handicap Book,
he was just another tipster selling his systems. And then he got the idea from somebody
to re-jig his systems and dress them up in the form of a book and also claim to be a pro punter.
Having been a tipster for years he knew the strength of it, and he knew exactly how to do it.
Basically he got it right, he knew what he was doing and he was good at it.

He must have made a million selling that book, and was probably one of the first millionaire tipsters.
He was a clever chap, no doubt about that, but it's a myth to think he made his money backing horses,
he made his money selling that book.

CJ, you would not have written about clive like that if he was alive but seem to be happy to call him when he is dead.
Clive was the only tipster to fight in court and won the case.


Whether he was alive or dead doesn't change a thing, i didn't know him personally and i'm sure he was a lovely bloke but it doesn't absolve him from creating false hope. I was a student and thought this was a way to make it pay, in reality @ £15 for the book and a few hundred down the drain it was a cheap lesson to learn that there are no short cuts where racing is concerned.

The simplistic methods used could never have produced long term profit, all the 'all you need is a daily paper and my book' was rubbish but i wished I'd thought of it!

Know All, the system never worked for 5 years. It was never advertised previously. It was back-fitted using 5 years results then sold on the strength of that. I could make a successful system up using 5 years statistics on the colour of a jockey's underpants !!!!!!!!!!

thin, you are a conman peddling your lies to those who should know better.

It was too simple to ever work .. and it did not work ... but Clive was well before his time .. and it worked for him ..

CJ "Clive was the only tipster to fight in court and win the case"

I can vaguely remember a court case, Christ this is going back a long time, and I might be wrong here,
but wasn't this something about stopping others selling pirate copies of his system (?)


Zip - I wouldn't say he was ahead of his time, not sure how he would survive
in todays market. But back then he knew what he was doing and he was good at it.
But basically he was a chancer who got lucky.

One line on here by thin and crispy which sums him up perfectly
absolutely spot on, "..........he obviously realised there was far more money to be made selling the dream of the life of a pro punter than actually being one."

Tell Dell ........ I met Clive many a time on the northern tracks . (1970 ) . take it from me he was a real nice guy....... we had a laugh many a time in the bar .. we even compared notes on the days card .. but your are right He was Selling the Dream .. not wrong with that .. most business are selling the dream If you dont have dreams .. you have nowt ..... think about that statement

Tell Dell .... just read that line from Thin And Crispy .. ask him did he ever make £400 k selling a system ....... Clive did ..

1970 400k was a lot of money zzzzzzzzzzz

Hey you can have my system for 10k back and lay ... 90% spot on .. most days ...

i used to use fineform and tweaked it several times to make it pay to an extent..however thin and crispy does make some valid points

Zip - think he made a lot more than £400 k
full-page adverts for years in the sporting press, and I know for fact he sold over 100,000 copies,
think it was £15 a copy, then £20 etc.. Less advertising costs, less printing costs etc. etc.

surely must have made a lot more than £400 k. (?)
he was a clever chap, knew what he was doing, knew the strength of it
how to market it and getting the adverts right etc. etc.

In those days no other tipsters were using full-page adverts like that,
and he was doing it for years. He had experience selling systems in the past
when he use to advertise in the old Sporting Chronicle Handicap Book. So knew how to get it right. Clever chap.

Tell Dell zips been in this game 50 years plus seen em all .. but Clive was peanuts .. ok he made £ 400.k.... selling a dream .. you say a lot more maybe a million ... Take Timeform Phil Bull ... sold zillions of race cards and the black book ..
Full of Big P little P....... may improve top rated bla bla bla ... now you can have it for nowt on here .. nowt is about right IMO .. thats all its worth ... But Phil Bull God bless him .. Was like Clive selling a Dream ....zzzzzzz

Got to go now ..... racing is about to start ...... money to be won .. and no i dont take any notice of Timeform .....good luck be lucky zzzzz

agree with you Zip, and also when Phil Bull started Timeform
it wasn't him doing the ratings it was D1ck Whitford - who deserves a lot of credit. And Phil Bull was only doing the commentaries in Timeform at the start.

Apparently Bull said to Whitford, "This is going to make us a lot of money."
He was half-right, it certainly made him a lot of money,
but Bull and Whitford split-up early on,
then years later Whitford was doing the ratings in the Sporting Life.

His book made for a good read but as others have said he was simply selling the dream to those who wanted spend all day at the racetrack backing winners. The rating formula could have been developed by a 10 year old really, very similiar to another well known dreamweaver's method namely VDW. The CH tipping lines did land some high profile gambles though it has to be said they were often the steamer of the day anyway,but i knew of several fearsome losing runs with plenty of odds on losers to boot. No doubt he was nice guy but he his lifestyle was paid for by those books which sold in the thousands, not through any betting formula he believed he had.

Who was the other guy who would take out a full page in the Sporting Life on Saturday's and Weekender with his weekend double? ..
Was it Martin Wells?
What was going on there? He seemed to claim getting a 45/1, 80/1, 120/1 double every other week

just googled Alan Carfax because I recalled Wells and Carfax had similar formats, seems they were/are the same (scammer)

no wonder very few win on betfair and in clives day on the racecourse, for £15 he sold a book that gave punters ideas and a idea of the hard work they would have to put in to make it pay, not one on this thread would know about that. now that is a fact.
The disrespect shown to someone who was way ahead of his time in this cesspit of losers here on betfair speaks volumes, not one of you would be good enough to even tie his shoelaces.
he would reguard folks like thin as born losers that he could never help, one thing i do know is that if anyone ever complained about his books or service he would refund without question. the sign of a genuine person and service.
just a pity he cant defend himself against lifes losers.

^ No disrespect to the guy at all, and I haven't said anything that isn't true.
I did know Clive Holt from way back in the early 70's when he was living in Lancaster.
This is when he was selling systems in the old Sporting Chronicle Handicap Book,
and way before he done the book. At the time he was just another tipster,
but he was quicker and sharper than most. But basically he was a chancer who got lucky.

This extract from another thread on here sums him up pretty well,
" The conclusion on Clive Holt was that if you followed the Fine form formula in the long run you would lose and if you phoned his telephone lines in the long run you would lose money. Holt made most of his money by selling the dream, in his books, that you too could live the live of a pro punter.. Unfortunately it wasn't true just like the extravagant claims he made in his ads.."

No question of disrespect, it's just the facts, admire him for making a fortune,
but as others have said on here, he was selling the dream.
He knew what he was doing and he was good at it.

Know All - I stated i thought it was a good read,but it was not a route to making money from racing,only for the author. The idea of his formula basically came down to the same format as another renowned supposed authority on racing VDW. It was using placings as a rating with additional points for a course or distance win. What racing enthusiast at some stage or another hasn't tried similiar basic ideas with racing data? At the end of the day his book kept selling because as i said it was written in a beguiling style that convinced the reader that here was a man who had left his boring job to become a professional punter and succeeded. Much like the writings of VDW who has since been exposed as fraud living in very modest surroundings. Their literature should be filed with all those self help books on life and business. The only cash made from them is by the authors and publishers.

The Alan Carfax,Martin Wells ads crept up from time to time along with several other pseudonyms the man in question used. Often the selections were in the same races and of course different horses in those races. Some of the other tipster names used were Gerald Swaine and i think M Harrington though i'm relying on distant memory here. To be fair the selections were sent by post before final decs were known and some decent priced winners went in (Sabrehill first time up drifting out to 8/1 from 3s as i remember) but later the services gradually went phone line format. Who was the man behind these lines? I always suspected it was a phone tipster using the name John Blake but i don't know if that really was true.

Miginvest . I agree with your comments ..100%.......... Pro Punters are as rare has the Snow Leopard in your local village .. Pro Layers / Bookies are 10 a penny ..

Tipsters .. Any you guys remember . .Prince Monalulu His call was I gota sure winner ..I gota hores .. I gota horse ... he was at all the big meeting and made a good living out of his tips .. what a charachter he was ..

mginvest

".........it was written in a beguiling style that convinced the reader that here was a man who had left his boring job to become a professional punter and succeeded. "

You are absolutely right, and despite any claims in the book,
- and I knew him in the early 70's before he done his first book -
and he certainly didn't leave work to become a professional gambler,
he made his fortune selling that book not backing horses.

'Selling the dream' is a perfect description of what he done.

anybody remember alan carfax
sent 2 tips every saturday by letter
advised 2singles and double
i won thousands with this guy

anyone remember the dawson system

Tell Dell ... In this life ... Dreams are Free .. Rest you pay for ......

Tell Dell - I'm sure he was a well meaning guy and apparently his first tipster operation did quite well. Did you work with him in the 70s or just a friend?

Some great names from the 80's / 90's on this thread
from the murky world of horse tipping .
Most o them were indeed the same guy .
As for John Blake i could type a fair bit about him
but i'd expect the thread would be pulled so best not .
As most people have said the only people making money
out of all this is the person selling the tips /info etc .
Sadly even nowadays some people stil fall for it .Greed .

mginvest - I knew him in the early 70's and when I moved South
we kept in touch for a few years on the phone and letters. Didn't work with him,
but I was running a small tipping service and he was selling racing systems
in the Sporting Chronicle H'Cap book,
and that was how I got to know him through racing and both of us doing the same thing.
Then a short time later when I got to see his book, and some of his claims etc.....a bit expedient with the truth.
A Fantasy Believer selling the dream. With his previous experience as a tipster
he knew exactly what to do and how to do it. And basically he really hit the jackpot with that book.

Fair play to him, clever chap, but having known the guy, I think I can honestly say that at the start he never expected to make a fortune selling that book, it was just like selling another racing system, but this idea might be a bit more profitable sort of thing. So he just went with it, he knew the game and how to play it.
In the end sold over 100,000 copies.

RIP

mginvest
Where/when was vdw ' exposed as a fraud living in modest surroundings'.
Just curious.

RW - I can remember him being exposed but
can't recall all the details but i think it was a bit
of a sad tale .

Never heard about that
Nevertheless still make plenty using his ideas plus a lot of hard graft ;)

I can remember him from the Raceform Handicap book
and from what i can recall it seemed a load of old tripe !

Everyone to their own opinion and I have no wish to convince you otherwise but I know it works for me.

ok , tbh i've forgotten a lot of what he said but
if it's working for you then good luck to you and carry
on with it .