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they're
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Has anyone done the following ten times..... if you can actually do it...
find a market that you can make go overround enter the back bet that makes the Lay percentage go 102, but in the same submission (can you bakc and lay in the APi at the same price) lay that bet at the same price. if you back gets done 10/10 and your lay never - then there is cue jumping going on The big questions is... does this new algo only kick in when no LHS money is there at or above your rpcie, or just ALWAYS when the book goes overound - if it is always, then they are jumping the cue - not just finding a new way to match anyway this is all academic - cant see it lasting long |
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grafec 07 Mar 19:05
The problem for bot is that he said BetFair wouldn't introduce their own bot in the main sports market without telling the user base. It's not a bot from everything I have read on here - it is part of the bet matching engine.....which the human "bot" in the "calling bot" thread below said was on the cards... |
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A couple of points:
1) Previously when someone made an almighty error that probably knocked them out of Betfair for ever (e.g. the 150 laid at 1000 the favourite when the stalls opened in a race in 2006), at least other punters were the beneficiaries (minus commission). Most of that 150,000 stayed in the markets for that race and subsequent ones. The reason that favourite got laid at 1000 was that it was the very first bet placed on suspension and nobody else had got in to offer to back that favourite. As soon as somebody did offer 150 to back at 2.5, they got matched at 1000. Now Betfair will grab all of that 150 at 1000 the instant it appears and it will be lost from the markets for good. 2) Contrary to one or two posters on here, I think bots must be currently operating on in-running horse racing markets, as 0 (i.e. something, but less than 2) is often shown as having been matched at 1000 in-play. In most cases the next price laid is usually about 100, and the assumption is that pennies at 1000 was laid by a bot locking in a guaranteed profit in running. |
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Lots of ids there as usual Mr Eejit.
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ifs
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screaming from beneaththewaves 07 Mar 18:20
A couple of points: 1) Previously when someone made an almighty error that probably knocked them out of Betfair for ever (e.g. the 150 laid at 1000 the favourite when the stalls opened in a race in 2006), at least other punters were the beneficiaries (minus commission). Most of that 150,000 stayed in the markets for that race and subsequent ones. The reason that favourite got laid at 1000 was that it was the very first bet placed on suspension and nobody else had got in to offer to back that favourite. As soon as somebody did offer 150 to back at 2.5, they got matched at 1000. Now Betfair will grab all of that 150 at 1000 the instant it appears and it will be lost from the markets for good. betfair will only get a scrap if any of this 150K it will still go to the punters, probably fast pic switched on people with 1 touch trading software |
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Lots of ids there as usual Mr Eejit
A freudian slip toenail? |
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no, they get every penny of it ...
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I think it's an easy argument for Betfair to say it's not a bot, it's a bet matching algorithm.
Anything which resolves two bets and generates a profit either way is a bot in my eyes. Whether BetFair run the tool prior to putting unmatched bets up or not. |
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Betfair is offering a service and is charging for that (by taking out commission), just like any other company. They have the right to charge as much as they want, 2%, 5% or 50%, it's up to the consumer to decide whether to use the service or not.
What they do not have the right to do, is to raise the charges without notice, and that is exactly what they have done here. If a telephone company all of a sudden doubles the rates, without notice, in most countries that would be illegal. Don't you have such laws in England? |
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For those who might not know the user "bot" is an betfair employee who has been very active on similar threads (the scousebarry incident, SP and even earlier ones) on the betfair forum defending betfairs point of view (obviously).
Not sure if I remember correctly here but think that he was a 'regular/simple' betfair user (+ shareholder probably) back in the very early days 2003/04 but revealed his betfair employee status later on here. |
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Those things are controlled by the regulator.
In the UK, the regulator became the Gambling Commission on 1 September 2007, a toothless bunch of nobodies who have no idea what an exchange is, and to remain on the committee, are not permitted to have a working account. Despite this being the highest turnover betting company in the world, there is in effect no regulator with teeth in the UK. |
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The optimist has some good points as usual and I would like to repeat it while adding one thing :
A company operates in the best interests of their shareholders, that is their job. However, that doesn't exempt them from behaving in a responsible way, as that will usually contribute to shareholders value. It is therefore my opinion this management is not fit to run this company. And we desperately need to contact the GC and possibly some newspapers to increase our weight. Have read this whole thread and think I understand it. I suspect that all estimates of the amount of money which betfair can cream off from this practice are hopelessly conservative. Surely we should be petitioning betfair - copies to the Gambling Commission and the quality press - deploring the introduction of this measure without notification of customers and requesting that they cease this (unintentionally?) dishonest practice immediately and only implement cross matching once best execution can be guaranteed in line with their tems and conditions. Many posters on here think that this issue is only relevant to people running bot or to a few 'pro-gamblers'. This is not the case. Particularly in-play we want to be matched at the price we input or better, not just the price we request. This measure will hugely benefit betfair shareholders at the expense of customers. No user is getting monetary gain from this crossmatching. Betfair is getting that. If we make an error we would hope to get an opportunity to cancel it before someone matches it, not to see Betfair hoover a massive profit from it. It may be fair enough if a punter on the other side profits I suppose, because on another occasion we may be the punter on the other side. It should not simply be an additional contribution to shareholders funds. In the meantime betfair should clearly let us know on which in-play markets this parasite is operating in order that we can avoid them. |
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as well as newspapers, the FSA and Gambling Commission, we should write to MPs. is there a relevant committee or specific parliamentarians known to have taken an interest in such things in the past?
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there would be less to grumble about if there wasn't skimming. i still dislike it because imo betfair should be out of these markets completely. but right now there is skimming going on, so it needs to be OFF, NOW.. not when they finish off coding it.., not when they get round to it... NOW, it's broken as far as I'm concerned, it's ripping people off and making a convenient and probably significant bonus for betfair.. this cannot be accidental - it has to be programmed !
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My feeling is that BetFair handle billions of punds of public money each day. Money from all ofver the world too. There is only one regulator who deals with this sort of business, and that is the FSA. They are tough, uncompromising and in particular, are very keen that any changes which have the potential to affect a user's balance are passed on in advance of the change. Failure to do so results in censure and possible company closure.
BetFair hold lots of money in accounts. They act as middle men for transactions. They have rules and they have shown here that they operate in their own market, skimming off guaranteed profits, all without informing their user base. Not only is this standard FSA territory. It's nonsense that it's anyone else's jurisdiction. Betfair pulled a fast one by persuading the GC they should be under their remit. |
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..Its therefore even more baffling that he (bot) hasnt done his PR job on this 1000+ postings thread, would have jumped in at page 3 latest normally as he has done every time in the past on similar threads, downtimes, Aussie wallet, even the very very early bot discussions (when software bots/one click sw was seen as the ultimate evil the time they arrived).
Makes you wonder if they showed him the boot.. or maybe hes just on holidays. |
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cake,
betfair won't acknowledge this until they HAVE to. |
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squatting-tiger 07 Mar 18:39 no, they get every penny of it ... your wrong.... think about what is actually happening and you will see why they will only get scraps |
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Why this place is regulated differently from the London Stock Exchange is quite baffling to me? We always hear how BetFair have more transactions per second and want to trade more money...
Interestingly, I suspect there would be support from traditional bookmakers ie. that exchanges are treated differently. Previously I didn't much care - after this tactic (where the user base were deliberately not told of a material change to the bet matching system) I feel we need someone with teeth looking after our interests, and the millions of pounds worth of UK assets invested in user accounts. |
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Get On MASSIVE 07 Mar 17:19
As fork in hell said earlier history is full of companies that rested on their laurels as market leaders and exist no more. Betfair are abusing their position because they know people will moan but ultimately will go nowhere. They wouldn't have done this if there was a viable competitor that people could take their business to. Couldn't agree more with this post, and it will just keep on happening If they keep biting the hands that feed them then one day enough will be enough and people will go elsewhere. Think of it like wildebeasts crossing a crocodile infested river. No one wants to go first but when enough do the herd follows. Trouble is, what will it take for that to happen? It will need to be more than this by the looks of it. EVEN if best execution has disappeared (which I don't believe it has personally) those who can will modify their methods, and those who can still make money will survive and carry on doing so. I've made moves to be able to walk away from betfair since the last commission hike. This move is 100 times more scandalous than that. I'm was a 2% player who has made some good money thanks to betfair over the last several years. Now I'm a 2.3% player and falling away slowly, but ready to walk away tomorrow. I used to play a lot in running, but gave up when I felt the playing field was unfair. The playing field has just got worse. I don't really have a lot of time for people who simply survive on fast pictures alone, but I'll feel for whoever is the first to enter 88888 to back the wrong horse at 1.01 and instead of getting 20k matched gets the whole 88888 matched without even seeing the order go on the screen! Its just another step in the ultimate betfair heaven where the fast picture boys find it more difficult to make money, the in-running judges find it more difficult to make money, and everyone finds it more difficult to make money. Yum yum for them. My escape plan is ready and waiting. Get yours ready (even if its just to try another site). The only way to vote on this issue is with your cash and your feet. |
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I'm afraid I have to admit that all my football betting went to the other place when the asian commission hike appeared. Why anyone bets asians on here now baffles me too. And asian handicaps are only the biggest football metting market in the world..
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*betting
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grafec 07 Mar 19:58
Why this place is regulated differently from the London Stock Exchange is quite baffling to me? We always hear how BetFair have more transactions per second and want to trade more money... Interestingly, I suspect there would be support from traditional bookmakers ie. that exchanges are treated differently. Grafec, the commotion to have exchanges treated differently from bookies was really aimed at licensing and taxing punters on here. So, yes there would be great support from the bookies to have exchanges (and their customers) treated differently - i.e. strangled. I don't see how that is in any way 'interesting'. It is entirely predictable. |
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just like to say well done to grafec for the energy he's clearly put into this thread, most of your posts I have agreed with.
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Wake up folks. At the moment, THERE IS NO VIABLE ALTERNATIVE to Betfair. You know that, They know that and that gives them a free hand to do whatever they want. Sad but true.
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thecanadian,
I don't see how that's relevant. |
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Everyone is complaining but no one is moving. No where to go. That's how it's relevant.
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skullduggery - obviously I'm not advocating customers being regulated. Sorry. Poor use of the word "interesting". I apologise.
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Everyone is complaining but no one is moving. No where to go. That's how it's relevant.
I will go. Soon. |
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Again, why? You're in the UK. Why do you have a GC if you don't use it?
cos some idiots voted labour. |
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medemi, go where? The purple certainly NOT an serious alternative.
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You can see it very clearly in running on Betangel. Every Betfair arb is signalled by a yellow flash on the ladder where no money is. It's frightening how many occur in running.
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The Magician - My understanding is that if that punter who mistakenly offered to lay the favourite, 150 @ 1000, were to make that error today, Betfair would get nearly all of it, not scraps. The whole point of that case was that the offer entered the system as soon as the race went in-running. We know that, because nobody else had put in a single offer to back the favourite at a realistic price. If they had, he would have got away with it, as those realistic prices would have been the ones at which he was matched, regardless of his own offer of 1000.
So, there was virtually nothing else but his own bet in the market when he placed it. Now, the new Betfair matching bot will look at his offer of 1000, and the instant anything half-realistic appears for the other horses in the race, back or lay, the book will be overbroke and it will fill those offers at whatever price was requested while matching the 1000 bet at the price requested. The only way I can see this being avoided is if in-running punters manage to get in their offers to back the favourite before those for the other horses and before the matching bot gets to work. I'll accept I may be wrong about this and you may be right - Betfair will only be able to skim scraps - but scraps of a winning favourite at 1000 is still a lot of money Betfair are removing from the market. |
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thecanadian,
I don't have to bet, not necessarily. Probably pick up poker again. Or choose the purple site if I want to bet - but not any time soon. |
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screaming from beneaththewaves
two things determine how much betfair gets you state the first one correctly, but you miss the second one (and this is why they will get scraps) even when no one had placed a back bet at reasonable odds prior to the 1000.0 lay being placed |
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Your withdrawal request has been made successfully.
EURx will be credited to your card. Please allow 3 - 5 working days for funds to appear in your card account. Your Betfair account has been debited byEURx One mugg less to take money from. ;) |
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enlighten us magician..
i was also interested to see your opinion that this won't last long. i hope you are right. |
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I've sent an e-mail to:
integrity@betfair.com Asking for an official statement. I suggest anyone who cares to do the same. |