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My tip is just post on the forum, everybody knows that everybody who posts on the forum is a winner.
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why not just blitz a regular job for 6 months? surely got to be a quicker way to increase your bankroll initially?
I'm virtually unemployable. Authority problem. (Not rare amongst gamblers) Agree entirely that it would be a smarter move. |
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never (nap)
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OP ,It depends on the individual ... i started with 0.00 in the bank after walking out on my old job and set up a bank loan/overdraft of 4k ... i had to find 300 a week from the off , so i had to make it work pronto ;)
i had studied the markets beforehand and was quietly confident i could just about make it work ,otherwise i was about to sell my home to retrieve some funds . |
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LORI
"I'm virtually unemployable. Authority problem. (Not rare amongst gamblers)" Same here. |
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NAGS TO RICHES 19 Feb 12:06
you wouldnt have to bet every day -some days more some days nothing. you will find that it can become tedious -like a mainstream job -make sure your life has other interests or you will find yourself sitting in front of a pc screen 8-10hrs day. i personally am looking for a pt job -both for a regular income and the social aspect -you can find yourself turning into a recluse SPOT ON Can easy go out of your mind |
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To answer your Question Jolly, you might think of quitting job when
1) You have been making more on here than you make at work 2) And have been doing that for more than a year 3) You have no wife 4) Preferably no kids 5) No mortgage 6) Low living expenses 7) Like spending long hours on your own 8) If you have the discipline 9) Have cash behind you in case you have a bad run. I remember a famous poker player been asked when did you decide to go pro. He said he was a pro before he realised it. I suspect the same is true for successful traders on here. Good luck. |
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^^ exactly what he said, unless you make like $1mill, and could live off interest+a few bets every now and again
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It depends on your circumstances i.e. age, kids, mortgage etc.
But in my opinion the one thing you should not do is count on your edge, however big or consistent it is, still being there in the future. So, you either need a way back into a job or enough to retire on. |
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For me many moon ago, when going to the track beat ($) going to work.
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So, you either need a way back into a job or enough to retire on.
That's the only guarantee of a secure future. But who has a secure future these days? |
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just look at those many perceive to be pros and you'll find they all have one thing in common----they have paid work from newspapers,media etc.
the stats say many businesses go belly up within the first year,i would suggest you can knock several months off that for those who think they can make it betting full time. |
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iam sure theres quite a few who can make a profit on here but to make enough to cover all your bills and have a life is a whole diff. ball game without that safetynet of a wage from your job how many could take the strain?
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problem is just to make a grand a month i estimate my weekly total stake would need to be over a grand over half of all my current savings. so realistically it would take me at least 10 years to become a pro.
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These threads are always interesting but I don't think too many realise the real truth.
Way before Betfair I left an IT career (took redundancy) to be a pro punter in the dogs. Concentrated exclusively on-track at Hackney, Walthamstow and Hove with £40 to £80's per bet spread around quietly so wasn't noticed. I was 33 at the time. Initial savings amount was £30k and I had a mortgage and negative equity. After a year I was in profit. Still got all my figures and used to aim for £1k a month profit. Achieved that seven months from the 12 but the 3 losing months ate up a chunk (2 months broke even). After living x's there was just a tiny amount left. But it had become a grind. Dog racing 9 to 10 times a week and all the work involved in form study was bl**dy hard graft. Aside from the work, it was isolating and a strain because I had to win. Lasted another 6 months then went back to work. Done it one more time since but today I think it is almost impossible. The bookies have the odds on everything so tightened up and the 100% books plus the commision on here mean finding ricks (IE where the true odds of an event occuring are less than the odds on offer) is really hard. It seems a glamourous way to make a living but it isn't. Also, from what I see of this forum, 99.99% of people lack the discipline needed. Bank size is relative to how you live and how you bet but I hope my ramblings show there is much, much more to it than meets the eye. Having said all that, I maintain that what I learned about myself during that eighteen months helped me achieve cinsiderable success when I started a business in IT a few years later. Today, (and I am not boasting) I have a lovely house with no mortgage and plenty of cash behind me so giving it a go never did me any harm but I will never forget the days when 'The Wick', 'The Stow' and Hove was where I made my living. Hope this puts a different perspective on the question. |
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Good post TK.
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a very honest and informative post by the knight.it is easy to put the work in on a good run but when the bad run comes ive seen many people fail due to lack of form study and chasing losses. end of pro. punter. as the saying goes the harder i work the luckier i get .
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A very good post by TK, and one that will almost certainly be ignored by 99% of those starry eyed by the glamourous thought of being a ''pro punter''.
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Well good post TK, especially your final point about becoming good at business due to your time at the dog tracks. I too have got quite confident in my job due to my success on here. The two are connected in a strange sort of way. Linked I reckon by a believe in my ideas and my instincts.
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i can't remember which other poster pointed this out (years ago), but its a good point
anyone who has the intelligence, insight, patience, discipline, etc etc, to excel at being a pro gambler, probably has the right skillset to excel in a number of different fields (and earn very good money doing so) so the very fact that you are capable of being a pro gambler may mean you would be giving up huge opportunities elsewhere and theres something to be said for a steady paycheque... putting in hours of work for uncertain reward (or even loss) can get very tiresome |
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Yes but for reasons strange for some of us, mainstream living would just not be the same.
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Some good and sensible replies to my post (good and sensible replies not always being common factors on these forums!)
For me, the main reason I did well after my time as a pro gambler was because my judgement was sharpened so much. I had always bet since I was 12 and had never lost much mainly due to being fond of money and being too afraid to lose but my time at the dogs really brought on my ability to weigh things up and see the risk against the reward. The latter has proved useful ever since, be it with deals or staff. The other thing my time as a pro punter taught me is how much emotion comes into gambling and that 'paper trading' anything is a waste of time. Why? Because there is no emotion in paper trading. I look back to one afternoon at Hackney early in August 1993. I had made a poor start to the month and went there one Tuesday afternoon with 7 bets lined up. First one lost and so did the second. Then I started fretting and talked myself out of the third bet. Naturally, it won. So then I doubted myself about the fourth because I hated the idea of having missed a winner and then hitting another loser. So, I left that alone as well and it won!!! I did the 5th bet in temper and it lost. I then packed in for the day (6th bet lost, 7th bet won). So, an afternoon of 3 winners from 7 had translated into 3 losers from 3 because my emotions got the better of me. I learned a lot from that and today find that I can stand back from losses and setbacks (betting, stock market or business) knowing it will go my way again sooner rather than later. To conclude then, most of the tripe I read on here about being a pro gambler makes me laugh because I, and it appears those who have replied to my posting, know how things really are. |
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Pro Gamblers .. horses only .. cause thats all i know .. well in my life time since 1960 .. there has been less than 62 .. when you think the pop Of England is in millions .. that should tell you its very tough.. and unless you have balls of steal you have no chance .. By the way dont fall for these telephone paper tipsters who claim they are pro .....
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The Knight explains why bookmakers make money from even talented punters.
I'm fascinated by betting and the whole subject of money-management and discipline. As TK says, it is entirely likely that one can pick enough winners and still lose money. The battle to get staking right, overcome the emotional battle and having the courage to stay disciplined is far, far harder than finding winners. |
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There are two pretty basic criteria that you need have satisfied before considering this as a full time career. Firstly that you know you can consistently make money on here and have consistently made money on here, and secondly that you know why you are making that money, with the associated confidence that the reasons for your success are unlikely to change. Lori already touched on this. So that's a proven edge, and a sound understanding of your edge.
Without these, a self described "full timer" or "pro" is no different from a mug who spends 40 hours in a week in the bookies with nothing to show for it. All the other choices are secondary and lifestyle driven and therefore down to the individual although the size of your edge will have an influence on these choices. e.g. comparative hourly rates, hours worked, career progression/sacrifice, social aspects, dealing with a fluctuating income, etc. |
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Dstyle,
Yes, you are right. The only thing I would say, however, is that, in my experience, no 'edge' lasts that long because sooner rather than later others start to see what you have already discovered. Hence, the ability to find different 'edges' is essential. But the biggest edge is still the ability to spot when the bookie's odds of an event are better than the true odds of that event occuring. This is otherwise known as value and will, in the vast majority of cases, be subjective to each individual. So, the ability to see an edge, the ability to execute it, discipline and the patience to cope with the ebbs and flows are definitely more important than the size of any bank...and that is just the start! |
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The Knight - you say "The other thing my time as a pro punter taught me is how much emotion comes into gambling and that 'paper trading' anything is a waste of time. Why? Because there is no emotion in paper trading."
Your background was betting since you were 12.......so you had acquired practice at betting for possibly a decade or two BEFORE you took the plunge and bet on dog races. For someone like me who did not spend time in bookies, other than an occasional bet on DERBY or GN , over 30 years NOT BETTING in any "serious way", then "paper-trading" was necessary for me to get used to selecting bets race after race ( horse racing...not dogs) until I got better and better at it. Everyone's circumstances are not like yours.........and you seem to contradict what you say in that .....you are wasting your time paper trading because there is no emotion in it!!! Surely you are "best" not to have "emotion" involved when betting....therefore "paper-trading" is a very very useful way to learn about betting and strategies etc. Until you have put a lid on "emotions", then surely you are unlikely to be successful at betting. The psychology of betting with small amounts of money and with a far bigger bank is completely different IMO, and probably this is why most people lose at betting ( other than having no edge). They may well have an "edge", but they are likely to lose because they are not satisfied with say £20 profit from £200 bank in a day ( 10% up)......whereas some one with £2,000 bank feels far better making £200 on a day, and is less likely to "go in again" to try to make more profit on a race where generally they know "it is not clear", or shape of race is dodgy etc etc, the person with £200 bank usually does bet on that race.........and probably loses on the day part of their bank! Think you are too critical of "paper-trading" as being a "waste of time"..........as learning to control emotions I would have thought is essential to winning from betting. It may have taken me over 5 years on here to get used to betting ,and all the psychology that is part and parcel of it...........and "paper-trading" was important to me not, as I did not have the "day in ,day out"practice at betting over decades like you probably did before you went "pro". WD though on being successful at it....and honing yourself for being successful in business . GL with bets ....and business |
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my mate is 'PRO' bettor on hear, earns up to a pony a day
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Mortgage paid off, and 50k bank.
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its great to see a post like this no **ing just diff pionts of view we would all like to (live the dream) and as far as i can make out theres no 1 right way of doing it so thanks to all those who have posted
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you cant say b.i.t.c.h.i.n.g ?
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DFCIRONMAN
Interesting reply. What I don't understand is how emotion can be controlled unless you first experience it. The afternoon I made a mess at Hackney Wick could not have been reproduced paper trading. Paper trading would have given me 3 winners from 7 bets and the impression the game was easy. But doing it for real is so very different. It is because I allowed emotion to creep into my betting so many times I can now control it so well. I know how to stand back, take a deep breath and either keep betting or stop for the day. I never ever chase and never will again having done it too many times for comfort many years ago! However, a gambler with no emotion at all will not enjoy the game, so there is no definitive answer here. Overall, though, different strokes for different folks. BTW to anyone who has enjoyed how this thread has had some intelligent posts on it - believe it or not, that's how the forums used to be. In earlier years I learned a lot of stuff here but now it is mostly rubbish. Good luck all. |
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Threads like this one is why i joined. Just making my way in the trading world.
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The Knight 22 Feb 19:09
DFCIRONMAN Interesting reply. What I don't understand is how emotion can be controlled unless you first experience it. The afternoon I made a mess at Hackney Wick could not have been reproduced paper trading. Paper trading would have given me 3 winners from 7 bets and the impression the game was easy. But doing it for real is so very different. It is because I allowed emotion to creep into my betting so many times I can now control it so well. I know how to stand back, take a deep breath and either keep betting or stop for the day. I never ever chase and never will again having done it too many times for comfort many years ago! However, a gambler with no emotion at all will not enjoy the game, so there is no definitive answer here. Overall, though, different strokes for different folks. BTW to anyone who has enjoyed how this thread has had some intelligent posts on it - believe it or not, that's how the forums used to be. In earlier years I learned a lot of stuff here but now it is mostly rubbish. Good luck all ======================================================= Hi The Knight......I am not saying that no emotions are felt when I am betting........but "paper-trading" just gets you used to making "good" selections regularly enough to just be "confident" that by making "good" selections often enough this will counter losses when they come along. Today I experienced a couple of losing lays in a row that cost about £600........one of the races was a short field race and I know I should not have bet on that race, but because there were fewe races to bet on ....I "took a chance" and layed one ....and it lead all the way with soft lead and held on to win........Just a bad decision by me .....not "controlling" my choice of races. The other loss was me getting it "wrong" which will happen now and then. Getting 2 wrong in a row did effect me initially, and I probably over staked the next race......though having said that I felt the selection was very very unlikely to win....and it did't. However, after clawing back some , I just continued to make selections and staked according to how i viewed the value of bet on each race. I did get another lay "wrong" ......and it was my first losing day in last 14, so a loss of only £ 161.87 by end of day was OK ....and I was not too annoyed, as I have won about £2,000 the previous 13 betting days from horse racing. If you get used to winning , you got to get used to the occasional losers..........knowing that a loss can be clawed back over a few days if you keep the standard of selections "good" and staking controlled. I don't think anyone definitely knows for certain when they are reacting to a loss or not.......but you got to make sure if you do place a large bet on, that there are a number of factors why the lay selection should not win.....and as long as the size of field is not SMALL, then doing a larger stake bet is ok .....IMO. My bet size can vary quite a bit ....just depends on how strong my opinion is on a race. I don't get "highs" from winning, as I am used to winning......and the satisfaction of winning is sufficient to get enjoyment out of being "right" far more often than being "wrong". So emotion is there ....but i try to keep it out the way of making a selection, as concentrating on each race tends to put a loss away at back of brain........though I am also sure that I probably expose my bank a wee bit more after a loss of over £300, than say losing under £200. Here is today's P & L for racing......am I showing signs of "chasing" .......don't think I was too bad today considering 2 hits in a row.......... Horse Racing: -£161.87 Horse Racing Showing 1 - 15 of 15 markets Market Start time Settled date Profit/loss (£) Horse Racing / Wolv 22nd Feb : 7f Hcap 22-Feb-10 17:55 22-Feb-10 18:00 31.71 Horse Racing / Wolv 22nd Feb : 7f Mdn Stks 22-Feb-10 17:25 22-Feb-10 17:29 23.06 Horse Racing / Ling 22nd Feb : 1m4f Hcap 22-Feb-10 17:10 22-Feb-10 17:16 63.43 Horse Racing / Wolv 22nd Feb : 1m1f Hcap 22-Feb-10 16:55 22-Feb-10 16:57 92.26 Horse Racing / Ling 22nd Feb : 5f Sell Stks 22-Feb-10 16:40 22-Feb-10 16:48 -170.81 Horse Racing / Wolv 22nd Feb : 1m1f Hcap 22-Feb-10 16:20 22-Feb-10 16:24 144.15 Horse Racing / Ling 22nd Feb : 6f Hcap 22-Feb-10 16:05 22-Feb-10 16:10 22.26 Horse Racing / Wolv 22nd Feb : 1m1f Mdn Stks 22-Feb-10 15:45 22-Feb-10 15:51 193.80 Horse Racing / Ling (F/C) 22nd Feb : Forecast 22-Feb-10 15:30 22-Feb-10 15:38 -6.00 Horse Racing / Ling 22nd Feb : 7f Hcap 22-Feb-10 15:30 22-Feb-10 15:36 -256.80 Horse Racing / Wolv 22nd Feb : 1m Sell Stks 22-Feb-10 15:10 22-Feb-10 15:13 -342.02 Horse Racing / Ling 22nd Feb : 1m Hcap 22-Feb-10 14:55 22-Feb-10 15:01 18.26 Horse Racing / Wolv 22nd Feb : 5f Hcap 22-Feb-10 14:40 22-Feb-10 14:42 23.06 Horse Racing / Ling 22nd Feb : 1m Mdn Stks 22-Feb-10 14:25 22-Feb-10 14:31 -25.14 Horse Racing / Wolv 22nd Feb : 1m4f Hcap 22-Feb-10 14:10 22-Feb-10 14:16 26.91 Think by the last few races the bets are OK........on a day where I feel there was 1 race I should not have touched.......but i did , so must pay for my own stupidity. Probably only the BOT users don't have too much emotion ..........whether they don't like betting day in day out will depend on how much they are making probably! Gl with bets. BTW ...looks like my football bets will more than cover loss for today above....so no damage done to confidence or bank. Mind you if finishes 2-2 in VALENCIA game ......i will be :( ...as now 2-1 ..... |
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YUP ....there was "emotion" watching the finish of that match.....I am not a bot yet :D
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At what point would you pack in yout job and become a pro gambler?
never ... |
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subversion 22 Feb 01:09
i can't remember which other poster pointed this out (years ago), but its a good point anyone who has the intelligence, insight, patience, discipline, etc etc, to excel at being a pro gambler, probably has the right skillset to excel in a number of different fields (and earn very good money doing so) so the very fact that you are capable of being a pro gambler may mean you would be giving up huge opportunities elsewhere _______________________________________ you would think so ,but who would offer you a good job on the strenghth of being a fantastic gambler regardless of how clever you are ? |
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thats not what i meant coach
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anyone who has the intelligence, insight, patience, discipline, etc etc, to excel at being a pro gambler, probably has the right skillset to excel in a number of different fields (and earn very good money doing so)
so the very fact that you are capable of being a pro gambler may mean you would be giving up huge opportunities elsewhere possibly so, but there's only so much of being ordered about and dictated to by loud mouths that someone who has the intelligence, insight, patience, discipline, etc etc, to excel at being a pro gambler will take |
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The Knight 22 Feb 19:09
DFCIRONMAN Interesting reply. What I don't understand is how emotion can be controlled unless you first experience it. The afternoon I made a mess at Hackney Wick could not have been reproduced paper trading. Paper trading would have given me 3 winners from 7 bets and the impression the game was easy. But doing it for real is so very different. It is because I allowed emotion to creep into my betting so many times I can now control it so well bit of a contridiction there you say there is no emotion in paper trading, but you blame the fact you allowed emotion to get in the way of your betting that day. by the way i did think your first post was an excellent insight to a pro gambler so not knocking you in anyway. but i would say that paper trading is the only way to go if you find a market that has holes in it. i found one last year and have paper traded it since then, but if i had bet on it i would have dumped it the first month, i started with a paper bank of 5k, end of the first week it stood at 4k when i first came across this, it appeared very good so i thought, just watch it. agreed there is no emotion when settling the figures at the end of each day. but where the real buzz comes is looking back at all the figures over a period of time and seeing the blips are very small, its now 530 points up. and having paper traded it i realise that the market is way in my favour. |