General Betting
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Several years ago The Magician and I tried to get the message across to punters on here about the potential unfairness of in running betting. In the years that having followed it seems that virtually everyone, including the mainstream press, are aware that TV time delays exist and make in running betting very problematic.
It appears that we could now have entered a final deceive phase. I think that either real time pictures will become available online or in running betting will enter a terminal decline.
Three things have happened recently concerning in running betting on horseracing:
1. It has come to light in the mainstream press that there is a serious disadvantage for stay at home punters with professionals hiring out expensive boxes at racecourses to take advantage of picture delays.
2. Since the beginning of this week a horse that unseats its rider (by falling or elsewise) cannot win the race.
3. Betfair, with its Premium Charge and
It appears that we could now have entered a final deceive phase. I think that either real time pictures will become available online or in running betting will enter a terminal decline.
Three things have happened recently concerning in running betting on horseracing:
1. It has come to light in the mainstream press that there is a serious disadvantage for stay at home punters with professionals hiring out expensive boxes at racecourses to take advantage of picture delays.
2. Since the beginning of this week a horse that unseats its rider (by falling or elsewise) cannot win the race.
3. Betfair, with its Premium Charge and
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Article on the end of fallers being able to win:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/horseracing/6270194/British-Horseracing-Authority-to-ban-remounting.html British Horseracing Authority to ban remounting There are fools, bloody fools and those who remount in a steeplechase. That was the favourite mantra of my predecessor at Telegraph Sport John Oaksey but from Nov 2, just in time for the start of the new jump season proper, the practice will finally be outlawed. By Marcus Armytage Published: 7:45AM BST 08 Oct 2009 Saddle sore: Instances when horses are remounted to pick up prizemoney, like Blowing Wind (left) and Papillon in the 2001 Grand National, will soon be a thing of the past Photo: PA The new rule will apply to any passing of the ways between a horse and jockey once a race has started. There will be no exceptions and remounting will become a fruitless exercise because the reunited combination will be disqualified. The subject, rarely controversial, has been on and off racings agenda for years and was last discussed by the authorities when Ruby Walsh remounted a young novice chaser called Kauto Star at the second-last fence at Exeter in 2005. Walsh nearly pulled off a miraculous win but the horse missed the rest of the season through an injury most likely sustained in the fall. Of course, there have been some rather more successful cases in recent history. AP McCoy and Walsh both remounted in the rain-affected 2001 Grand National after being unseated at the 19th fence. Blowing Wind and Papillon finished third and fourth respectively, while in the same race Carl Llewellyn famously rang trainer Nigel Twiston-Davies on a borrowed mobile phone to ask whether he should remount Beau. The breather Loving Words got when he was brought down at the fourth-last in Grittars 1982 national enabled jockey Richard Hoare to finish the race like a steam train in third. McCoys quick thinking also won him an unlikely victory at Southwell in January 2002 when he remounted Family Business after being unseated at the 10th. After all the other runners either fell or ran out or, in some cases, both, he was the only finisher. The extraordinary race made the evening news. |
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Article of the track players:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/oct/29/horse-racing-online-betting-course Tracks on the take from edge-seeking punters Critical advantage is gained by those who pay to be allowed to bet online at the course |
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Good post, frog.
It would seem like an ideal time to keep this topic to the fore. Sadly the GC are not likely to be of any use so it is down to the punters who can see the injustice of this whole sorry debacle to keep up the pressure for a level playing field. No doubt those in the private boxes will argue "we would love a level playing field" etc etc. In the same way that sis users said they were happy to compete with atr extra users whilst firing off reams of complaints to sis and atr on a daily basis. As Feck pointed out yesterday. Betfair / GC have previously said the exchange shops ensured at home players got the best possible prices, presumbly they will argue the private box players are making the prices even fairer? |
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frog, are you aware there are more pre-race punters unaware they are betting with people who have studied form than ir players unaware of delays (in betfair's opinion)?
I don't think it's fair to isolate horse racing btw. The bulk of liquidity in the flies-round-sh1te markets exists mainly because of a ** buikt into the interface. It's only a matter of time before this betfair created glut of 'professional gamblers' brings the tax man down on our heads. Finally, we are wasting our time here because the vast majority on this forum are ir 'wonders'. |
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hello frog , one suggetion for you and magician to put forward to betfair as regards to suspending on the line.
my suggestion would be to electronically connect the suspend signal on course to that of betfair. on both flat and jumps racing , the suspend sign could appear when the starter presses his button to start the race, so betfair would have to try to have a connection with the starters button. at the end of a race there must be some kind of laser to trigger the photo finish ( if there is one ) as it cant be done manually. again betfair should be connected to this trigger, so when a horse crosses the line the suspend sign would come up within 1 second. |
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I think one of the biggest myths is that the track players are only making money laying fallers, or playing at the end of the race backing 1.01/1.02/1.03 etc. I think the ones making the big money are using the same stratergies that all the home players are using, backing big mid race,laying,taking positions, trading, greening up etc etc, they are just doing it 3 seconds before everybody else and taking the pick of the prices.
I dont think that on track players purely rely on fallers and past posters to make the money. Apparantley its not that easy to do that as there is loads of competition from people thinking thats the way to riches, and its fastest finger first. The only way to make it fair would be fast pictures for everybody. Years ago, when ATR used to pretend that Betfair didnt exist I could never see it happening. But now, seeing that Betfair and ATR are clearly quite close, and ATR seems to want to mention the IR market after almost every race something can be done? Doesnt have to be immediate. They could give notice so that people paying for SiS dont get tied into contracts that become worthless. But they have shown before with ATR extra that they are capable of providing a channel with a much shorter delay. Even if it was subscription based, it could still be done and would be much fairer. ATR and Betfair should get together and sort this out. |
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Feck, are you right it does not just affect horseracing. Boxes can be hired at most events to give people fast internet and real live pictures.
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It's only a matter of time before this betfair created glut of 'professional gamblers' brings the tax man down on our heads.
This will never happen !!!! |
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Thank you page-413, you have put my mind at rest.
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do you know why it cannot happen ?
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Feck, are you right it does not just affect horseracing. Boxes can be hired at most events to give people fast internet and real live pictures.
While true in cases where the bet placement delay is insufficient, it wasn't what I meant frog. I was referring to the market maker advantage. |
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page-413, if you're going to say because betfair could just move to malta then don't bother. A move to malta would affect liquidity and it's only a matter of time before the EU adopt a similar stance to the USA w.r.t. offshore bets.
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No I wasn't going to say that . But i will say this .........
Just called Lingfield Race track just spoke to a senior manager . Made enquiries about hiring in running service on race days .. Here is what he said its £70 a day only on race days ... and wait for it ............................................................................................... you cannot see the course !!!!!!!!!! I said are you sure he says YES I AM SURE you are not allowed to see the course .. I then call Newmarket ........ you know whats coming .. can you see the course NO .. So lets wrap this up the service the in running punter is getting at the track is no different to making a trip to Canary Wharf . The Inrunning guys are fighting each other not killing the average Joe . To be fair I do agree with a lot of frogs post .. |
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Since when do the oncourse players see the course? They just watch the fast RaceTech pictures.
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Feck you will never pay a penny tax on betting [directly] because it would open doors for claiming loss ..
Half the mugs are doing their money and if they had a brain would claim this against tax .. It will not happen |
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Your article mentions punters hiring rooms at race tracks Did you read the article you pasted ???
Any one can hire a room 2 yrs ago I had f/ pictures in my house. |
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Critical advantage is gained by those who pay to be allowed to bet online at the course
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ your post |
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Are you for real? Are you aware that there are three sets of pictures for every race:
1. RaceTech (fastest and only available oncourse) 2. TurfTV or SIS 3. RUK or ATR |
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I am aware i have just spoken with a race track
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With respect to in-running players, I have to take a stance that any time you enter into an in-running situation, you need to go into it that others have an edge on you.
If I was to rely soley on a type of betting as my source of profit, I would make sure that I am properly prepared to take on that sport or situation. I recently have built a network of links to every hockey team in the NHL and receive information on line-ups, side-lined and injuries of players that allows me to assess the play on accurate information rather than speculation. I feel more confident on my NHL betting and hopefully the returns will be there over the season. Anything other than the track would enter into speculation. You are betting on a horse to win a race. Once up, you are asking for the bet to be taken. You enter that bet with the understanding that the horse may not win or may not complete the course. I respect that if you "knew" the horse had fallen, you would have cancelled your bet. But unless you have the facilities to "know", you are creating an aspect of chance in your betting. One persons view who, like yourselves, has: a) placed a back that was matched just prior or after a horse fell b) placed a lay that was matched just prior or after a horse fell c) and accepts that others playing in-running will have an edge over the actual action. Not a criticism. Simply one more view from a survivor. |
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I dont think you are for real ..
this is from Racetechs site .... Today RaceTech provides coverage to the BBC, Channel 4 and the two specialist horse racing channels, At The Races and Racing UK, and to racing fans around the world through the international racing and betting channels so it looks as you are not up to speed my old son .. Lingfield confirmed to me the fast picture is turf / sis .. mate if you are going to copy and paste do your home work first |
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do excuse me just going to make my 3 % with some fast pictures he he
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No one is going to pay £70 for anything other than the racetech pictures from the attended course. sis / turf tv will refer to the other meetings.
BTW, where does it say in stone losses are recoverable? Do you think bookmakers can recover the gp tax if heir business shows a net loss? |
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page-413, what on earth are you gibbering on about?
The racecourse trading rooms are using racetech pictures at source. |
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Can you please put "HORSE in running betting" in the title next time?
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Why zeeny? As stated above 'courtsiders' are not just at horseracing events.
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For the majority of sports BF simply need to make more effort (or be forced ) to educate or inform punters about the potential of time delays -
In amongst the large amount of information under the 'rules' section of the market it's not really prominent enough imo. I never bet any horse racing in running or otherwise so won't comment on it - but there's absolutely no danger to anyone with half a brain in most other sports as long as the warning is more prominent. never have the benefit of fast pics and never have a problem betting in running |
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Uuuuh, I'm missing the glorious point of your post then. How are people present on other sports events a problem?
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No actually, ** it, I'm not getting involved in the same argument with the same people again. You guys fly your boat and gl.
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too late zeeny. You asked a question. Clearly if someone is say, at a tennis match, live they have a massive advantage over those watching it at home. Someone watching it on local TV is also at an advantage. In all sports the current broadcasting technology means delays. Those with the fastest pictures have an big advantage. If some people have a big advantage they win too quickly off other punters. This is bad for Betfair. the fairer the markets the better it is for the longterm future of the markets.
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Seriously, what are the technological problems with providing fast pictures on a subscription basis to whoever wants them over the internet.
I know the technology has improved no-end recently (flash streaming etc.) but I am interested to know from anyone assoicated with that industry of whether there is a technologicial possibility of in the future getting reliable good-quality pictures within say 1 second of live distributed. If this is possible (and the relevant broadcasting rights issues can be overcome, which I do not believe would be a problem if the service was subscription only), there must be a market for pretty much all sports to provide this. It would get rid of the existing and perceived advantages being talked about here and would surely lead to increased liquidity in all in-running markets. Minor enhancements could be added to the feeds such as a recorded timestamp in the top right hand corner with a local (computer) timestamp below highlighting if the stream has for whatever reason lagged. Surely this would be the logical conclusion to get around the existing problems and give in-running the integrity and boost it requires? |
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I never bet any horse racing in running or otherwise so won't comment on it - but there's absolutely no danger to anyone with half a brain in most other sports as long as the warning is more prominent.
never have the benefit of fast pics and never have a problem betting in running I'll just take the chance to mention my usual whine that in sports with gaps, (tennis, cricket,darts but not soccer, horse racing, snooker) that the clock-delay seems almost counterproductive as you can only trade during the gap between points/balls/etc that you can see anyway and the 5 seconds just lowers the period where you can have a bet... you can end up being counted down while you realise the main market makers have seen what happens if you're not careful enough. |
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the big problem is betfairs laissez faire attitude to sorting out fast pics for all. i know that betfair have made enquiries and done site visits to the company that produces flash pics but the end result was that they couldn't do anything due to the contractual issues with atr etc. i agree with frog that we could be entering the final phase of in running horse race betting unless something is done. i have sent many emails to SiS(next best option after flash pics imo) and spoke to them as well to try and get them to sort out a raw feed service but all to no avail. its a great shame, it could be such a good product.
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There are only two ways to make IR fair.
1) Ban it. Nobody wants this. Betfair lose out. It's unfair on the peole who like to hedge IR, its unfair on those who like to pre-empt things happening in running, unfair on those who can make it pay with the slower pics, and probably even unfair on those who are prepared to travel and pay the costs to get the fastest pic. or 2) Make use of modern technology and provide pictures that are no longer than 1 second behind. Even if its on a subscription service, surely thats the option that everybody wants? I suppose as mentioned before, the main trouble is going to be all the different parties involved coming together and deciding who provides/makes what off what will surely be a very popular service. |
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Jeez , the biggest windbag is back with his failed agenda.....move along, nothing new here.
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3) increase the bet delays to prevent hoovering
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3) increase the bet delays to prevent hoovering
oh dear... increasing delays would hurt those with slower pics the most, when they only get their bets matched when they are wrong, the market maker advantage for horse racing where there is no gap in play and odds shifting all over the place would be massive. increasing the delay is not the answer |
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Correct bacon.
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So allowing someone 1 second to place a bet into a market which is already up to 5 seconds old is okay?
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