Several years ago The Magician and I tried to get the message across to punters on here about the potential unfairness of in running betting. In the years that having followed it seems that virtually everyone, including the mainstream press, are aware that TV time delays exist and make in running betting very problematic.
It appears that we could now have entered a final deceive phase. I think that either real time pictures will become available online or in running betting will enter a terminal decline.
Three things have happened recently concerning in running betting on horseracing:
1. It has come to light in the mainstream press that there is a serious disadvantage for stay at home punters with professionals hiring out expensive boxes at racecourses to take advantage of picture delays. 2. Since the beginning of this week a horse that unseats its rider (by falling or elsewise) cannot win the race. 3. Betfair, with its Premium Charge and
People who don't understand the pc think the supposed 20% better odds is wiped out by the "20% commission". What would they make of 25% tax on top of that?
.................
good stuff this....I'd far rather someone like you that clearly can only make it pay by fleecing the average pre Horse race mug at least pays for the enjoyment.
People who don't understand the pc think the supposed 20% better odds is wiped out by the "20% commission". What would they make of 25% tax on top of that? .................good stuff this....I'd far rather someone like you that clearly can only m
There already is a state tax on profit. Betfair pay it, it's called Corporation Tax. Labour took the decision to abolish Gambling Tax in the hope that gambling would stay onshore and boom, and they'd be able to tax the profits of gambling companies. It also goes down a treat with their core vote, of course.
Some suggestions on here are plain daft:
One obvious initial way to make in running betting fairer is to state a policy that is a bet cannot win it will be voided i.e. void bets on fallers.
Not practical. It would destroy in-running trading on horse racing. One faller and you've no idea what your position is.
None of this is practical. Either you ban in-running altogether, or you assume we're all adults and allow everything. Just make sure everyone knows it's not "fair". "The Fairness of Inrunning Betting" is not the real issue, it's "The Transparency of Fairness of InRunning Betting".
There already is a state tax on profit. Betfair pay it, it's called Corporation Tax. Labour took the decision to abolish Gambling Tax in the hope that gambling would stay onshore and boom, and they'd be able to tax the profits of gambling companies.
not sure how the asian books deal with loss of BF or other medium..and I'm firmly in the couldn't give a ....
what BF or the industry/gov wants to do is available full stop ...I think I'll be ok ...one way or another...
not sure how the asian books deal with loss of BF or other medium..and I'm firmly in the couldn't give a ....what BF or the industry/gov wants to do is available full stop ...I think I'll be ok ...one way or another...
name and shame and when I get an hour (probably Thursday) we can always play the equivalent of a poor WTA again you fraud...
probably just the doesn't suit you...Feckname and shame and when I get an hour (probably Thursday) we can always play the equivalent of a poor WTA again you fraud...
try and not blame the punters for fair betting it all down to tvs and the power to be is in fact betfair which i all for fair in running betting so why not pay all pc money on real live tv for all and i am very sure worldwide will get stuck in it not today i say i hope it will be like i say 5 years ago oh forget it maybe 10 years time in every real live tvs of the world and i can see betfair grow 10,000folds due to too many untapped markets with real live china usa what ever all on tvs wow golden ages of 2015 or hi tech in every room worldwide got betfair that how big it can grow but i feel seeding is elsewhere due to % due to the pushing away and not gaining on fun bets etc
try and not blame the punters for fair betting it all down to tvs and the power to be is in fact betfair which i all for fair in running betting so why not pay all pc money on real live tv for all and i am very sure worldw
remarkable (purely imo) that you are so keen to get offside with someone that agrees with much of your more genuine stuff....turns out you really are a fraud.
remarkable (purely imo) that you are so keen to get offside with someone that agrees with much of your more genuine stuff....turns out you really are a fraud.
interesting thoughts from people on his thread....my thoughts are that betfair is a good thing and makes people money through various strategies, including in running betting.
Fair? Life is not fair....it' not fair that my boss earns 30k per year more than me and does nothing. The only solution is to change what you do, be clever and find ways that make you money.
Lobbeying for changes of rules because they don't suit your world is a waste of energy in my opinion.
rant over. carry on.
interesting thoughts from people on his thread....my thoughts are that betfair is a good thing and makes people money through various strategies, including in running betting. Fair? Life is not fair....it' not fair that my boss earns 30k per year m
Panorama: Is it true you lay dead horses, accept bets on losers after the result is known, accept ir bets when play has went against the punter but knock them back if play has went their way while waiting?
Betfair: Yes, but we also accept lays on dead horses, bets on winners after the result is known and allow some ir punters to cancel their bets if play's went against them.
Panorama: Is "yes I stabbed the innocent passer by m'lord but someone had stabbed me earlier" a valid defense?
Betfair: We also contribute to gamcare.
Panorama: So you mug people but contribute some of the money to a victem support line?
Betfair: We also have MOU's with all sports so we can help expose **ing.
Panorama: Wouldn't it be wise to sort out your own **ing first?
Betfair: Leave us alone. You are nasty people trying to spoil the fun for others.
Panorama: Why do you allow bookmakers to accept bets that have already lost?
GC: We think it's OK if the bookmaker's terms and conditions warn the people placing the bets that their bet may have already lost.
Panorama: I though the purpose of the GC was to ensure fairness in gambling?
GC: We think it is fair.
Panorama: But surely if you can't win at the time the bet is placed then you can't lose?
GC: Go away you nasty people. Why are you trying to spoil things for us and our good friends?
Panorama: Betfair is a bookmaker?Betfair: Yes.Panorama: Is it true you lay dead horses, accept bets on losers after the result is known, accept ir bets when play has went against the punter but knock them back if play has went their way while waiting
Ones whose walls are covered by pictures Baroness Thatcher, the greatest Prime Minster in the history of British Politics. Recites those famous words on the hour every hour; To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say: You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning!
(from wiki)Thatcherite:Ones whose walls are covered by pictures Baroness Thatcher, the greatest Prime Minster in the history of British Politics. Recites those famous words on the hour every hour;To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite
Thatcher town at an elevation of 2,900 feet. is in the Gila River Valley approximately 160 miles southeast of Phoenix, 120 miles northeast of Tucson and four miles northwest of Safford in Graham County.
Thatcher town at an elevation of 2,900 feet. is in the Gila River Valley approximately 160 miles southeast of Phoenix, 120 miles northeast of Tucson and four miles northwest of Safford in Graham County.
Muqbil 01 Dec 11:31 Mark would have trousered a good few nicker had his cunning plan been succefully applied.
Yes, while the rest of the world works to get onto the property market, he would have an entire country :)
Muqbil 01 Dec 11:31 Mark would have trousered a good few nicker had his cunning plan been succefully applied.Yes, while the rest of the world works to get onto the property market, he would have an entire country :)
He's a reminder of the utter worthlessness of the people at the top. An antidote to the Daily Mail propaganda which tells us that they are wealth-creating risktakers and utter geniuses.
He's a reminder of the utter worthlessness of the people at the top.An antidote to the Daily Mail propaganda which tells us that they are wealth-creating risktakers and utter geniuses.
Panorama is a good shout. Let's put the cheeting course **kers out of the game. Horses going 1000 before the hurdle and then falling a second or two later. Sounds fair pmsl.
Why the 1 second delay? Totally pointless if the TV pics are 3 and 4 seconds behind. If its caveat emptor lets have 1 second or no seconds in football too.
Panorama is a good shout. Let's put the cheeting course **kers out of the game. Horses going 1000 before the hurdle and then falling a second or two later. Sounds fair pmsl.Why the 1 second delay? Totally pointless if the TV pics are 3 and 4 seconds
A longer bet placement delay may be necessary then. Because its not just faller backers who get stung. Lay something else just as a faller comes down and you are hoovered also.
A longer bet placement delay may be necessary then. Because its not just faller backers who get stung. Lay something else just as a faller comes down and you are hoovered also.
I doubt the sums lost by 0-0 backers compares to the sums one and lost when a hot favourite falls over jumps and 30 desperadoes at the track all have a fastest finger first to make their money for the day.
I doubt the sums lost by 0-0 backers compares to the sums one and lost when a hot favourite falls over jumps and 30 desperadoes at the track all have a fastest finger first to make their money for the day.
No, my point is the bet placement delay shd be longer than or equal to the delay in the pictures the vast majority are using. Either SIS or ATR.
If there's 8 seconds in football, why 1 second in racing? if the second horse passes the leader near the line this is more significant than a goal in football in my opinion.
No, my point is the bet placement delay shd be longer than or equal to the delay in the pictures the vast majority are using. Either SIS or ATR.If there's 8 seconds in football, why 1 second in racing? if the second horse passes the leader near the l
but the crazy regulators deicded if a bookie knew a horse had lost ( ie the race was over) they could still accept losing bets - and that was still legal
madness.... labour party... policed by a conservative party that was even more daft than them
caborn jowel wittingdale moss mcintosh
my god..... these clowns build the gambling act - and NEVER understood it
doubled.... it should be...but the crazy regulators deicded if a bookie knew a horse had lost ( ie the race was over) they could still accept losing bets - and that was still legalmadness.... labour party... policed by a conservative party that was e
Once there is a longer bet placement delay and IR liquidity goes down and the thieves are out of the game and bf's profits are down, the picture speed issue will soon be miraculously resolved (NAP).
Once there is a longer bet placement delay and IR liquidity goes down and the thieves are out of the game and bf's profits are down, the picture speed issue will soon be miraculously resolved (NAP).
Yes there is a trading room at racecourses where people go and make thousands laying horses that are on the floor. Other people have made millions with raw feed pictures.
In both cases the public at home are betting on something they might not realise has already happened and are being fleeced.
Betfair turn a blind eye to this and even take an extra 20% of the profits.
Racing journalists have been known to bet at the track and at work with faster pictures so have been loathe to discuss the issue.
Staff at SIS are believed to have taken advantage of their faster pictures too and the company charges 7k a year for their slightly slower 'fast pics' they sell on.
The slowest pics are on ATR - a sister company of SIS.
You're right DOUBLED nothing to see here. Lol!
Dear PanoramaYes there is a trading room at racecourses where people go and make thousands laying horses that are on the floor. Other people have made millions with raw feed pictures.In both cases the public at home are betting on something they migh
to be honest, current tracksiders and courtsiders have nothing to worry about.
Betfair want the comision today over the long term sustainability of thier product ( ie they dont understand)
And the GC ceratinly dont understand and can be fooled into doing whatever gambling opperators want them to do.
read the GC review of IR - it is a inditment on them
to be honest, current tracksiders and courtsiders have nothing to worry about.Betfair want the comision today over the long term sustainability of thier product ( ie they dont understand)And the GC ceratinly dont understand and can be fooled into doi
Agree, which is why I believe the only way this issue will be resolved is through bad publicity for betfair - it's the thing they hate most. A Panorama exposé will concentrate a few minds at Hammersmith.
Agree, which is why I believe the only way this issue will be resolved is through bad publicity for betfair - it's the thing they hate most. A Panorama exposé will concentrate a few minds at Hammersmith.
ive read alot of the post about people being "**s" for taking advantage of fast pics or live at the venue, the bottom line is that they are not doing anything wrong and nor should betfair do anything to stop it its just the way it is.if people bet on something they know may have already happend then its there own fault if there money gets hooverd
ive read alot of the post about people being "**s" for taking advantage of fast pics or live at the venue, the bottom line is that they are not doing anything wrong and nor should betfair do anything to stop it its just the way it is.if people bet on
While I agree that the tracksiders aren't engaged in wrong-doing, it is not in the public interest for them to be indulged in the way they are now. It is unlikely that newbies wil understand what is happening to them until they have lost a significant sum. They may then become totally disenchanted and lose all interest in betting on sport, which is not in our interest, never mind BF's. I don't expect the hooverer's to agree.
While I agree that the tracksiders aren't engaged in wrong-doing, it is not in the public interest for them to be indulged in the way they are now.It is unlikely that newbies wil understand what is happening to them until they have lost a significant
Joel 19 Nov 01:56 Wouldn't people betting on fallers lose their money anyway whether they have fast pics or not ?:|
this is the most sensible statement on this subject i have ever seen
case closed
Joel 19 Nov 01:56 Wouldn't people betting on fallers lose their money anyway whether they have fast pics or not ?:|this is the most sensible statement on this subject i have ever seen case closed
So if no bets can be taken on fallers, how exactly would this be implemented ? Presumably we're not talking about BF suspending the IR market, cancelling all bets and removing the runner for every faller.The alternative seems to point to markets being settled hours after the event
So if no bets can be taken on fallers, how exactly would this be implemented ? Presumably we're not talking about BF suspending the IR market, cancelling all bets and removing the runner for every faller.The alternative seems to point to markets bein
The tracksiders are **ing betfair, it's betfair the bookmaker who are **ing the dimwits betting from home. Some of these will even be using cable pictures. It's all one saying no one is forcing you to play but if you think everyone reads the forum and knows the degree of the delays then you're delusional about the species you belong to. The fact clowns like Doubled and Reuben claim to be able to make fortunes speaks for itself.
Increasing delays is not the answer as that would just increase the advantage the tracksiders would have. Utilising the bet placement delay to your advantage should itself be looked at.
Betfair realise that giving clear warnings about delays (e.g. pointing all customers to videos showing the raw, sis, atr, cable pictures side by side and illustrating the market maker advantage) would be "ratner-esque" even though they recognise it would be in their long term interests to lose most of the pc payers. The last thing they want is for the dimwits to realise the extent to which they've been **ed in the lead up to a float. I don't think they're looking beyond that.
The tracksiders are **ing betfair, it's betfair the bookmaker who are **ing the dimwits betting from home. Some of these will even be using cable pictures. It's all one saying no one is forcing you to play but if you think everyone reads the forum an
Wouldn't people betting on fallers lose their money anyway whether they have fast pics or not ?: this is the most sensible statement on this subject i have ever seen case closed
We are talking about bets which are unmatched at the time the horse falls, of course. If the bettor sees the horse fall, he will cancel his bet. Except it's already been taken, as someone else saw the horse fall some time ago.
hth
Wouldn't people betting on fallers lose their money anyway whether they have fast pics or not ?:this is the most sensible statement on this subject i have ever seencase closedWe are talking about bets which are unmatched at the time the horse falls,
I am not sure how the 'float' really changes things. Wray and Black trousered £15m each for selling 1% each of Betfair to Softbank afew years ago putting a £1.5bn valuation on the company. I doubt the valuation has increased since then.
Surely the float would be to raise new capital to expand the business rather than to payout more to Black and Wray. At the very least I doubt they would sell all their stock. They would still have a longterm interest in the future of the company.
I am not sure how the 'float' really changes things. Wray and Black trousered £15m each for selling 1% each of Betfair to Softbank afew years ago putting a £1.5bn valuation on the company. I doubt the valuation has increased since then.Surely the f
Maybe so frog but that doesn't change anything I've said. Maybe they'll think more long term after the float but they wouldn't want the boat rocked beforehand.
Maybe so frog but that doesn't change anything I've said. Maybe they'll think more long term after the float but they wouldn't want the boat rocked beforehand.
PEOPLE WHO LOSE THEIR MONEY WHEN A HORSE FALLS IN A RACE..... SHOCK. TO ALL THE MOANERS WHY NOT HAVE A FEW QUID ON WITH THE HIGH STREET FIRMS AND SEE HOW MUCH YOU GET BACK IF YOUR HORSE FALLS - DOUGH PEAK HUNTS :)
PEOPLE WHO LOSE THEIR MONEY WHEN A HORSE FALLS IN A RACE..... SHOCK. TO ALL THE MOANERS WHY NOT HAVE A FEW QUID ON WITH THE HIGH STREET FIRMS AND SEE HOW MUCH YOU GET BACK IF YOUR HORSE FALLS - DOUGH PEAK HUNTS :)
Incidentally stringer, I'm not in favour of contacting Panorama. While betfair would deserve all they got I want them to thrive and would prefer they clear up the mess before anything like Panorama happens. Given how corrupt this country now is I'm not even sure this would be on the radar. It pales into insignificance compared to the way we are being shafted by ponces in the financial sector. It's no surprise though that many of betfair's cheeses have a background in that sector.
Incidentally stringer, I'm not in favour of contacting Panorama. While betfair would deserve all they got I want them to thrive and would prefer they clear up the mess before anything like Panorama happens. Given how corrupt this country now is I'm n
Oh dear, I thought after reading 16 pages a new argument against inrunning might have been put forward. Still the same dull old irrelevant trash I see. Some people really need more to do.
Oh dear, I thought after reading 16 pages a new argument against inrunning might have been put forward. Still the same dull old irrelevant trash I see. Some people really need more to do.
Agree debate is old and opinions are semi set - but I remain open to be conmvinced of new things and options.
I think the only real change is that fallers CANNOT win races now. they cannot remount, win and be awarede the race.
They are ineligiable... so they will not be awarded the race.
This is a technical change - that has an impact, but the GC have made no comment on this to my knowledge.
some thoughts to sovle this
1) reverse the price priotiy of matched bets, it that the bets hsould be matched at the incoming price limit, not the limit of the net already in the system
2) run a continuos series of 1,2,3,4 second auctions, that cross match ( or pools bet ) all money in the system
both of these will give more protetching to the casual punter - and he is the one betfair are currently endoursing the fleecing of
slayer of kins....Agree debate is old and opinions are semi set - but I remain open to be conmvinced of new things and options.I think the only real change is that fallers CANNOT win races now. they cannot remount, win and be awarede the race.They ar
slayer, if you're attempting to right a wrong it will never be resolved by stating your case once and then dropping it. I can just see you visiting Nelson Mandela in his 28th year in prison. "Let it go Nelson. Let it go."
slayer, if you're attempting to right a wrong it will never be resolved by stating your case once and then dropping it. I can just see you visiting Nelson Mandela in his 28th year in prison. "Let it go Nelson. Let it go."
Feck thinks that it is fair for in-running punters leaving bets up to be matched at bigger prices than are currently available and if their selection falls they should get their money back :)
Feck thinks that it is fair for in-running punters leaving bets up to be matched at bigger prices than are currently available and if their selection falls they should get their money back :)
If everyone knows the situation regarding delays I don't particularly have a problem with fallers. Everybody doesn't though and betfair seem quite happy to ** those in the dark. That said, I don't really see the point of your post Doubled. If a horse is trading at 4.0 pre-race and I put up a request for 6.0 does that mean I deserve to be mugged on the way to to the shops.
If everyone knows the situation regarding delays I don't particularly have a problem with fallers. Everybody doesn't though and betfair seem quite happy to ** those in the dark. That said, I don't really see the point of your post Doubled. If a horse
Why can`t all interested parties get their act together and talk ,so ALL pictures are relayed say .5 secs behind live. Think off all the extra revenue it would create - over to you betfair.
Why can`t all interested parties get their act together and talk ,so ALL pictures are relayed say .5 secs behind live. Think off all the extra revenue it would create - over to you betfair.
Nefarious interests are at work, krl. Your suggestion is sound, if it could be implemented, but would not be popular with those currently getting rich on an unfair basis.
Nefarious interests are at work, krl.Your suggestion is sound, if it could be implemented, but would not be popular with those currently getting rich on an unfair basis.
Feck - I am sure you would be delighted to be matched at 1000 for your 6 request because the horse has been incorrectly called as a faller by the commentator !
Feck - I am sure you would be delighted to be matched at 1000 for your 6 request because the horse has been incorrectly called as a faller by the commentator !
Doubled, I would also be delighted if my bank accidentally deposited a billion pounds in my account and told me just to keep it. The remote possibility of that happening does not mean I think bankers should be allowed to rape the country.
Doubled, I would also be delighted if my bank accidentally deposited a billion pounds in my account and told me just to keep it. The remote possibility of that happening does not mean I think bankers should be allowed to rape the country.
No just in the interests of fairness Moon Light, whilst potentially sorting out a few other problems as well. Oh and by the way its certainly not as easy in an exchange shop as many people make out. The track guys should have a very good advantage, their problem is they try to cut each others throat.
No just in the interests of fairness Moon Light, whilst potentially sorting out a few other problems as well. Oh and by the way its certainly not as easy in an exchange shop as many people make out. The track guys should have a very good advantage,
If Betfair want to make it fairer they should get rid of keep bets. I saw a keep bet get swept up on 0-1 in the HT correct score market when it went to 1-1, a free £180 for the layer.
Yesterday I matched a £190 keep bet when a 2.5 shot became a 5.0 shot (if I didn't match it someone else would). This got me thinking about how much I've made from keep bets and I wouldn't be suprised if it's over £3k. But I'm not looking for them and only using the standard website and regular pics. I wonder if the keep bets group are among the people who are losing too quickly and not coming back.
If Betfair want to make it fairer they should get rid of keep bets. I saw a keep bet get swept up on 0-1 in the HT correct score market when it went to 1-1, a free £180 for the layer.Yesterday I matched a £190 keep bet when a 2.5 shot became a 5.0
I saw a keep bet get swept up on 0-1 in the HT correct score market when it went to 1-1, a free £180 for the layer.
To think of the fees bookmakers are charged by the GC to ensure fairness in betting, yet this mob think the above is perfectly fair and acceptable as does their cohorts betfair.
The business community in this country is morally sick and it's only a matter of time before they bring violence down on themselves.
I saw a keep bet get swept up on 0-1 in the HT correct score market when it went to 1-1, a free £180 for the layer.To think of the fees bookmakers are charged by the GC to ensure fairness in betting, yet this mob think the above is perfectly fair an
If Betfair want to make it fairer they should get rid of keep bets. I saw a keep bet get swept up on 0-1 in the HT correct score market when it went to 1-1, a free £180 for the layer.
Yesterday I matched a £190 keep bet when a 2.5 shot became a 5.0 shot (if I didn't match it someone else would). This got me thinking about how much I've made from keep bets and I wouldn't be suprised if it's over £3k. But I'm not looking for them and only using the standard website and regular pics. I wonder if the keep bets group are among the people who are losing too quickly and not coming back.
brilliant real life examples....
but Betfair (stupidly) lobbied the GC that due to the number of experts in the market, IR bets where getting matched at close to fair value.... and the GC even more stuoidly concluded they where correct
you could not make it up...
Okuma 20 Dec 14:21 If Betfair want to make it fairer they should get rid of keep bets. I saw a keep bet get swept up on 0-1 in the HT correct score market when it went to 1-1, a free £180 for the layer.Yesterday I matched a £190 keep bet when a
Interestingly they dont allow keep bets to be placed on the correct score market, but they do on half time correct score and a lot of similar markets.
email the GC and ask why this is allowed.....
Okuma 20 Dec 15:59 Interestingly they dont allow keep bets to be placed on the correct score market, but they do on half time correct score and a lot of similar markets. email the GC and ask why this is allowed.....