Who thinks Man United and City are better than Liverpool ?

Their first 11 are very good, providing they don't have to break down packed defences week in and week out, so most weeks they'll have a job on, also they have about as much depth as a kiddies paddling pool, oh, and they could be on the verge of losing their best player, that all adds up to 14. Liverpool's high press will surely suffer with the added European games and their squad can't afford to suffer injuries or too much rotation.

United have great depth and have shown already this season that last years Achilles heel may well be sorted by grinding down and simply overpowering the smaller clubs at OT, which they couldn't do last season, away against the likes of Liverpool they can now soak it up and counter affectively, all round United are far stronger than last season. Liverpool are the same, plus Salah, who has had a good start, but also maybe minus Coutinho.

United and City should be bigger with Chelsea shorter than 11/2, it's a 3 horse race.

Since Klopp has been there i'm struggling to think of a game Liverpool have lost to any of those 3.

The breaking down smaller teams i  am not seeing City doing with any more consistency , and beating the sides they have , it is very early to be acclaiming United imo

Liverpool have blown a late equalizer to Watford and struggled to break down a shocking Palace side before thumping a team that were Arsenal in name only and in reality were no better than any of the lower sides in the league.

Leicester have started the season well enough, unlucky to come away with nothing at Arsenal, before winning and yesterday looked solid at the back and carried a threat going forward, if they keep Mahrez they will be a comfortable top 10 side.

way too early to be drawing massive conclusions about any side

what is for certain is all the top english teams remain at best 2nd rate in european terms. that alone suggests you shouldn't be very confident in any of them

put your money where your mouth is mate and back l'pool and enjoy the journey you could be very rich come the end of the season.

losing coutinho might be the best thing that happens to this l'pool team. their front 3 looks electric and the midfield is all working really hard. does coutinho even get into this team now?

from what we've seen in the opening 3(?) games, man city don't deserve to be favourites. utd liverpool and arguably chelsea all look stronger. no doubt they'll improve but pep seems to be very unconfident whereas klopp mourinho and conte have all been there done it before and seem confident. pep's millions does not equal a title imo.

I don't think anyone can defend the odds you have posted tobes. They are just plain wrong.

Duffy. Our squad isn't as thin as many think. We had a very good XI out yesterday, and four regulars from the team that did well last year didn't even start. Coutinho, Lallana, Clyne, Milner. We also have Sturridge back and fit as a good option from the bench. That also doesn't include Robertson who looked excellent on debut. The emergence of the youngsters and a few more shrewd signings this summer has improved the squad. We certainly don't have the depth of City, Utd, Chelsea, but its miles better than people think. And certainly not thin enough to justify the crazy difference in odds for the league. Our first XI has been as good as anyone in the league for a while. Now I would say our first XV or XVI is.

Don't forget we've also steam rollered a decent Bundesliga team in 2 CL qualifiers already as well. Making the wins in the league even more impressive.

Anyway, I'm happy for everyone to keep under estimating us.

City are appalling value and a lay..Like Liverpool to take at least a draw from them but probably a win...Then lay again.

Liverpool with a couple more clever additions in this window IMO be in Top 2.Certainly real challengers.

Happy to keep taking the price,13 now.

Happy to keep laying City at 2.6 also.

I've backed LFC E/W at 16's, Chelsea at 4's and i'm happy with that so far. Chelsea won the title in a canter last year and their squad, Costa or no Costa, is as good as anyone's and Hazard hasn't kicked a ball yet, Morata is class and will be a great replacement. Citeh are still Pep's enigma's, so much attacking talent I don't think he knows what to do with it though. I can't have Spurs at any price away from WHL which was one of the best 'home field advantages' in the country, Arsenal well that goes without saying, just embarrassing trash yesterday, Sanchez looked totally fecked off, can't blame him either.

Manyoo have started well, and have a good squad and bringing Zlatan back will prove a master stroke if he can stay fit.

4 teams in it IMO, and an early CL bath might prove a big advantage to someone. Spurs look very vulnerable in their group I just can't see it helping them to a title though. Chelsea have Roma and Athletico Madrid and look next most likely to crash out the CL and might benefit from that in the EPL.

LFC were very impressive going forward in the 2 games v Hoffenheim and Arsenal, Mane is top class and Salah isn't far behind. But, both played right into their hands, Hoffenheim were wide open and Arsenal were a farce defensively. I'll more impressed with LFC when they stuff some bus parking EPL tripe like Stoke or West Brom 5-0.

There should be plenty of opportunity for trades this year.

Odds are odds in other words peoples best guess as to what an outcome might be I think the odds quoted for Liverpool are generous  I don't hink the squad at Liverpool is that thin it's not packed full of over hyped names but hey have now almost two players in every position maybe centre backs apart

I think in his two seasons in charge he has improved every stat more goals more points and league positions don't look like a freak occurrence that they finished fourth and were top last season at Xmas prior to falling away in January

I'd be happy with 14s as I think at some point they may well touch a bit shorter not saying they will win it but the odds offer the best available price to make a profit imo

yes they are better, but not 7 times better.

title looks a 2 horse race - City and Chelsea.

Klopp is better than Maureen and Pap.

The acid test for Liverpool under Klopp is when the fixtures start piling up, let's see if they can sustain that.

Betting odds reflect the herd instinct Liverpool will demolish City 3-0 3-1 or above on September 9 after which their odds will shorten to about 4/1.For the rest of the season how Liverpool do depends on the injury situation.They are cer4tainly on an upward curve at present

That is true Duffy. But worth remembering we lost two key players in Mane and Matip when the fixtures piled up last Jan for 6 weeks. That coincided with a really bad injury spell and we basically blew it in that period then finished well. Definitely better equipped to deal with extra games this season, but like everyone else, we need some luck with injuries... although I'd be lying if I said I wasn't more concerned about how much Klopp's heavy metal football takes its toll over a season father than a period of congested fixtures.

But I think he's already shown he's learnt how important rotation is in the Prem and CL. We've used 19 different first team starters in 5 games already.

9984 days since liverpool last won the league, so that says it all really.

Aug 28, 2017 -- 1:43PM, DIE LINKE wrote:

Klopp is better than Maureen and Pap.

based on what?

don't ask me, i backed Arsenal for the title, it was the worst bet i ever made.

regards Liverpool, it's, you can't believe it until it happens(winning the title)
plus i don't think they've spent enough on new players.

United are yet to concede a goal. Which is a very pleasing trend.

what price Utd to go through the season without conceding?

Baldy will probably lay you 13/8 for a tenner

nah, City will put 4 past them

I don't agree Liverpool produced 2 performances better than they did last year. Arsenal were just much worse than they were last year. I expected Liverpool to batter Arsenal, I didn't even think Liverpool were that amazing, just Arsenal that bad, and got the sort of game I was expecting which was 3-0.

Liverpool's issues already been highlighted in the 2 other games they played. Didn't look world beaters against Watford and Palace did they? And therein lies the problem, there are far more of those games than games against Arsenal types. Liverpool won the top 6 mini league last year yet were well off the pace in the title race, and tbh nothing I've seen so far suggests it will be any different this year on that front.

Liverpool were hardly "vastly superior to Utd" either last year given Utd pretty much jacked in the league at the end whereas Liverpool it was all they had to play for.

Also you can claim Utd haven't beaten anyone which is kind of true. But Utd not winning these kind of games was exactly why they were nowhere last year. They chucked about 16 points in draws that shouldn't have been draws, nearly all of them were vs bottom half teams. The fact they are pillaging these sides atm is a good sign.

Real test as ever will be when Europe kicks in rotation/injuries set in.

In terms of performance though Utd have looked the best team imo, they have pretty much battered the teams they played for 90 minutes, even when last year they started with 3 wins, they were far less convincing in those wins. Test is a) keeping it up and b) how they do vs the better teams, given they were very negative in many of these games last year, especially the away ones and will need to do better away vs top 6.

N88uk. I've heard LOADS of people criticising Liverpool for the performance against Palace.

I assume you watched the whole game?

I haven't no.

And suggesting you 'battered' Swansea and Leicester for 90 minutes is bordering on the ridiculous. I reckon Phil Jones should have been MoM against Leicester which tells you something. Had Leicester had a bit more quality in the final third, they could have easily scored and made the game a much different test. And the Swansea scoreline flattered you enormously.

I don't think the point of this thread is that Man Utd shouldn't be one of the favourites, or that they haven't looked good. But that the disparity between their price and Liverpool's is too big. Liverpool are almost SIX TIMES the price of Utd. That's just nuts.

Leicester didn't create a chance of not against Utd until the 93rd minute when the game was lost anyway. De Gea didn't make a save of any real note before then.

The thing with Liverpool exactly is right now the team is pretty much the same as last year isn't it. There aren't a load of youngsters in it you'd expect to get dramatically better, so why would you expect them to get dramatically better? Liverpool have put in performances like yesterday's one against the top teams ever since Klopp came in, I remember the 4-1 away to Man City early in his tenure, they looked awesome that day. I didn't see the Palace game, I did see the Watford game though, and that game really suggested same old as last year (which is to be expected with virtually the same personnel).

You see I cant understand why people talk about performances they haven't watched and use them to back up their opinions when they've no idea what really happened.

I've watched all three United games and can tell you our performance against Palace wasn't much different to any of them. We have only had more shots on target 5 times in the last decade than that game. We completely dominated. Just couldn't quite score the goals our dominance deserved. But still won. You can't score loads of goals every single week. When you also consider this game was after a crucial away CL game, I just don't understand why anyone is using it in the negative column for Liverpool.

Denis Law, Brian Kidd, Peter Beardsley, Andrei Kanchelskis, Terry Cooke, Peter Schmeichel, Andy Cole, Owen Hargreaves and Carlos Tevez.

If enough people thought the disparity between the two was too big, then it wouldn't be would it?, it's there for all to help themselves to should they so wish, the fact that a bunch of Liverpool fans on here think it's too big probably doesn't make it so, just as a few United fans who think it isn't too big doesn't make it so....but there's plenty of others who can help themselves, but don't appear to fancy it too much.

So you're basing it one game then? That makes sense.

The thing with Liverpool exactly is right now the team is pretty much the same as last year isn't it. There aren't a load of youngsters in it you'd expect to get dramatically better, so why would you expect them to get dramatically better?

This comments suggests that you know very little about Liverpool imo.

Joe Gomez and Trent Alexander Arnold are now first team quality imo. Two of the most exciting young players in the league. We've signed a LB in Robertson that was much needed and he was superb against Palace. We've signed Salah who has almost been MOM every time he has been on the pitch so far. His pace will be crucial when Mane can't play, as we didn't have anyone else that could give us that in his absence last year.

Yesterday we started without Coutinho, Lallana, Milner and Clyne. Four absolute stalwarts and regulars last year. We couldn't have coped without all four last year.

Last year was also Klopp's first full season. It seems obvious to me that he will keep improving us, at least for the short term. Just as Poch did in his second full season last year at Spurs. Wijnaldum, Can, Mane, Firmino, Matip all look like they've improved again this season. Why wouldn't they? They are young players. And three of those five played their debut season last year.

Duffy. For a man who bets regularly that just doesn't make any sense does it. Why weren't Chelsea favs at this stage of last season then?

The odds are wrong all the time.

I'm not sure united have changed much from last season again they have spent another 130 mill approx and again they have won their opening three games same as last season

They do look a little more fluid in attack but are still very dull to watch very workmanlike They've always had the ability up to last couple of seasons to be flat track bullies but of late the top teams have generally brushed them aside

It's too early to use collateral form but m pretty sure arsenal are being painted as useless and they were bad and Liverpool were just ok but I'm sure they will win lots of games or avoid defeat over the season

I do see United improving on last seasons form and with Spurs giving away home advantage arsenal looking a bit brittle for a few games I'm confident they can grab fifth

Chelsea where not favs as they'd just been smashed by Arsenal and looked an absolute mess until Conte changed (stumbled across a better) formation

I think you're missing my point pf. Duffy's point seems to be that the odds must be right. They often aren't.

On the evidence of what we had seen of Chelsea in Mourinho's last year and then up until this stage last year under Conte i don't see how we can say their price was wrong, the incredible improvement after they got beaten by us after the International break could not possibly have been envisaged.

So pf. Do you think the odds for the Prem will look just like they do now all season then? Or will they change too?

What has that got to do with anything?

Of course the odds will change as teams go ahead, teams drop away etc......

I think it's perfectly obvious what that has got to do with anything myself.

Personally i think Man Utd deserve to be nearly favs (as much as that pains me) for the league as it stands. Mourinho has really strengthened in areas he needed too, Matic is a brilliant signing for them as he has given Pogba more freedom to get further forward and thus Matic stays put and does not leave them exposed. Lukaku fits their style of play perfect and they always have a man up there, as good as Ibrahimovic was last year he does drop deep a lot and does not stretch the defence.

i would say we are a little big at 14 but i still think we will playing for 3rd/4th place, we should get 4th at least with Tottenham at Wembley and Arsenal gone to sh1t

This site is a fkin disaster now with posts not showing up for ages after they're posted

So you agree with me that we are too big then pf. That's all I've been arguing. I'm not saying we are going to win the league ffs.

I never disagreed with you on the Liverpool price, i answered the question why Chelsea where not favs at this stage last year

But I was using that merely as an example of how prices can be wrong. The market over reacted to a couple of bad performances from Chelsea. There were people on here talking up Chelsea and Conte and how he would turn them into title contenders with the squad they had. I disagreed and couldn't see it in the slightest, but the rest of the season surely proved they were right? You can say it was right at the time, but I would disagree. Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing, but how often do you look back at prices and see how wrong they were?

I think the market has massively over reacted to Liverpool drawing with Watford. We should be around 8/1 tops for me.

CCM

Prices are wrong all the time, but this price is being painted as a right old rick, those type of instances get backed

Anyway I'm repeating myself now. I've said what I think! Be interesting to see where these odds are in the fullness of time. But I think City will certainly be a lot bigger and Liverpool will be a lot shorter soon.

The market hasn't over-reacted to a typical Arsenal capitulation

Duffy. I think it is a right old rick. Unbelievable trade to my eyes.

Man City (a)
Burnley (h)
Leicester (a)
Newcastle (a)
Man Utd (h)
Tottenham (a)


Perhaps that's why they're the price they are, if they get results from that run they'll shorten but City away, Tottenham away and United at home we would not be expected to be picking up a rake of points, we as fans would be hopeful though. Even Leicester will be tough as we've a poor recent record away there.

If you where looking for a trade in the Premier League market the bet was surely Man Utd pre season when the fixture list came out, it's not inconceivable they'll be unbeaten or even won all their game when they come to play us at Anfield.

A couple of decent home performances against two Europa League teams isn't enough to convince me that Liverpool are better than City or United yet

Pf. I completely agreed posted that various times before the season started. I will certainly be laying Utd when they shorten even further.

Fwiw I dont think Liverpool are better than City or Utd, or even comparable in terms of title challengers due to overall squad depth.

But I think them being nearly ten times the price of City is completely wrong.

I'd disagree that Liverpool are big due to the upcoming fixtures. Just don't think the market is that clever. If that was the case, Utd would surely have been shorter and not halved in price on the back of winning three pretty easy games.

Aug 28, 2017 -- 5:26PM, REDUNDANT PUNTER wrote:

I'm not sure united have changed much from last season again they have spent another 130 mill approx and again they have won their opening three games same as last seasonThey do look a little more fluid in attack but are still very dull to watch very workmanlike They've always had the ability up to last couple of seasons to be flat track bullies but of late the top teams have generally brushed them asideIt's too early to use collateral form but m pretty sure arsenal are being painted as useless and they were bad and Liverpool were just ok but I'm sure they will win lots of games or avoid defeat over the seasonI do see United improving on last seasons form and with Spurs giving away home advantage arsenal looking a bit brittle for a few games I'm confident they can grab fifth

Utd drew 10 home games including games to Swansea, West Brom, Bournemouth, Hull, West Ham, Burnley and Stoke. Who were they flat track bullying exactly?

Klopp's playing style is a killer for players over a season, add Champions League fixtures into the equation and I think Liverpool will do well to get to 76 points again. That would probably be enough to keep them in the top 4.

Fixtures will have nothing to do with it a this stage. At this point everyone got to play everyone twice pretty much, fixtures are only really relevant when it's who you have left with like 10 games left or whatever. Liverpool's tough run doesn't make them any less likely to win the title in the long run which the market is pricing up atm.

I did say up to last few seasons

So liverpools problem was beating sides like Swansea Bournemouth West Brom  West Ham Burnley stoke and nothing's changed yet united had same issue but also lost points to the top teams

If nothing's changed then the odds aren't right are they ?

Big discussion on price lads, what about Arsenal at 30.LOL. Absolutely no chance whatsoever! None...

If only i had a spare Thirty K lying around could pay for next years caravan holiday...

I think themover makes a key point. This sty.e of play with the constant pressing will surely have an affect in the Liverpool. Enjoy watching them particularly Mane but the worry is they gas out in the new year.

I'm not sure they are actually pressing like last season I think they are competing but also sitting off a little more this time round I think injuries and suspensions will be key and the last few days of the window

But last season I don't think they ran out of steam and if they did they recovered it towards the end

City been boring, can't see city getting much this season a bit of a shambles tbh, UTD been quality and Liverpool exciting,

Anyone else think augero is dead wood these days an pep hasn't a clue really

doubt it, City only have two strikers (currently)

Nothing against city in fact they should be top dogs, not clicking ATM still long way to go

Personally, I think the argument about style of play and tiredness is a red herring. Liverpool weren't tired last winter, they must had a couple of bad games , lost confidence and so lost their rhythm. Was a mental, not a physical problem.

If they weren't tired last season they'll be tested more this season with the Champions League fixtures as well :

9 Sept Man City v Liverpool
13 Sept Liverpool v Sevilla
16 Sept Liverpool v Burnley


23 Sept Leicester v Liverpool
26 Sept Spartak Moscow v Liverpool
1 Oct Newcastle v Liverpool

14 Oct Liverpool v Man Utd
17 Oct Maribor v Liverpool
22 Oct Spurs v Liverpool

28 Oct Liverpool v Huddersfield
1 Nov Liverpool v Maribor
4 Nov West Ham v Liverpool

18 Nov Liverpool v Southampton
21 Nov Sevilla v Liverpool
25 Nov Liverpool v Chelsea


2 Dec Brighton v Liverpool
6 Dec Liverpool v Spartak Moscow
10 Dec Liverpool v Everton

Aug 28, 2017 -- 10:47PM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:

Personally, I think the argument about style of play and tiredness is a red herring. Liverpool weren't tired last winter, they must had a couple of bad games , lost confidence and so lost their rhythm. Was a mental, not a physical problem.

Totally agree.

You think Klopp will plays his 1st XI in every single league game before and after Champions League fixtures (subject to injuries) ?

I think Liverpools top level is incredible. I worry about them though. Their price is interesting though.

Aug 28, 2017 -- 11:15PM, themover wrote:

You think Klopp will plays his 1st XI in every single league game before and after Champions League fixtures (subject to injuries) ?

no - he will rotate as much as he can. he's got the squad for it (of sorts) and says he likes doing it; giving players who deserve a game the chance to play.

their CL group isn't that bad. moscow is a journey but spartak aren't that good a team. sevilla aren't what they used to be although that is a tough away game. maribor again is not easy but also not the most intimidating opposition.

let's just count how many first-team players liverpool have to choose from:
mignolet, karius
clyne, sakho, lovren, gomez, klavan, moreno, robertson, matip, arnold
wijnaldum, milner, coutinho, henderson, lallana, can
firmino, salah, sturridge, mane, origi, ings, solanke

that's 24 players who can represent the first team and not let anyone down so they basically have two teams. i wouldn't be worried about their squad depth.

man utd

de gea, romero
lindelof, bailly, jones, rojo, shaw, valencia, darmian, blind, smalling
pogba, mata, lingard, pereira, carrick, young, herrera, mikhtaryan, fellaini, matic
lukaku, ibrahimovic, martial, rashford

25 "top" players

united's squad depth is frightening.

man city

ederson, bravo
walker, danilo, kompany, stones, mangala, mendy, otamendi
gundogan, de bruyne, delph, sane, bernardo silva, david silva, fernandinho, yaya
aguero, jesus, sterling

just 20 players.

chelsea

caballero, courtois
rudiger, alonso, cahill, christiansen, azpi, luiz, moses
fabregas, kante, hazard, pedro, bakayoko, kenedy, willian, oxlade-chamberlain
batshuyi, morata, remy

just 20 players.

united and liverpool have the strongest squads.

united should be winning the league but liverpool could keep it interesting. I expect City to fall away

Chelsea will smash Utd, again.