Your in with the minnows now.

Get over it and look inside the club for the cause not outside.

Travelrug
There is far more integrity, honesty, grace and appreciation where we are than where we were.
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I do not believe that sentence could come from a rangers supporter and expect to be taken seriously.

This is my understanding of it, open to correction of course:-

The verdict finds that the 'loans' were not payments to players for services rendered (playing football) for TAX purposes only. The verdict found that there was no breach of tax law in making the payments and not deducting tax and National Insurance as it was not due (in most of the cases, it was admitted that the payments in some cases were taxable and this was not in dispute). These loan trusts were specifically outlawed in 2011 (once knowledge of their widespread use was discovered by HMRC) but were used as a means to get around paying tax prior to that and today's finding confirms that they did not breach the tax laws of that time (2001 - 2010) and that Rangers were not liable to pay tax and National Insurance on those 'loan' payments made to players.

That has nothing to do with SPL rules which, as I understand it, provide that all payments to players have to be declared at the time of registration of the player in order for that player's registration to be valid. The decision today does not decide that the second payments to Rangers players complied with SPL rules - that is a separate issue to be decided by the SPL at a future date.

If the SPL find that the payments were in breach of SPL rules then it follows that those players (up to 40% of Rangers players) were not registered in accordance with SPL Rules and were, thus, ineligible and those rules further provide that any team who fields an ineligible player is deemed to have lost any game in which he played 3-0. That is where the title stripping will stem from if the SPL so finds. It is almost a given that Rangers would be found to have lost the vast majority of their matches between 2001-2010 by a 3-0 scoreline and the SPL would be entitled to strip them of any points and titles won during that time.

BUT Celtic apparently operated the same EBT structure for Juninho Paulista in the 2004-5 season to avoid paying tax and used it to pay him an extra £765k. They subsequently decided against using it, came clean to HRMC and paid any tax due on those monies. But again, for the same reasons as above, that is irrelevant to SPL Rules. If Celtic did not declare those payments at the time of his registration, they too should be deemed to have lost any matches he played by a 3-0 scoreline. I have read online that if that was indeed the case with Juninho, then working back the 2004-5 season points total would mean that Aberdeen won that league with 64 points.

If the Juninho EBT did exist and if they didn't declare the payments to the SPL at the time of his registration, then would Celtic fans please shut up calling Rangers cheats etc etc. They are as bad as each other. In fact Rangers were, purely from a tax perspective, right to use them and Celtic were wrong to cease using and paying tax on them. If HMRC don't challenge today's verdict (and it would be pointless for them to do so as this verdict leaves it open for them to seek repayment of these 'loans' and recover some of the money they are owed - if they successfully appeal then they can only go after the former Rangers oldco which has zero assets), then it could surely be open to Celtic to rely on the verdict and seek repayment of the tax they paid on Juninho's loans?

Of course I could be way off here and am open to correction as I said. I am sure there are people on here more familiar with the issues than I am. There is still a hell of a lot up in the air and the matter is by no means concluded, could be appealed by HMRC and the SPL still have to decide on it.

BTW I am Irish and would have a natural leaning towards Celtic but I am not a fan as I find the childish and sectarian bickering that goes on between the two clubs and their fans quite tedious.

I've read a bit more about the Juninho EBT and it was apparently paid at the end of his tenure at Celtic as a golden handshake payment, ie a payment for early termination of his contract which Celtic sought to pay in a tax efficient manner. If that is true then it would be completely different to the second side-letter contracts that Rangers used from day one with their players and the payment was not due at the date of his registration, meaning that Celtic did not breach SPL rules.

If that is the case then that entirely differentiates the Celtic EBT use from Rangers EBT use. Even if these EBT 'loan' payments were a legitimate means of avoiding tax, for me they were at least morally wrong as the payments could not be said to be for anything other than football services. Seeing as Celtic eventually came clean and paid tax that they felt it was right to pay, that is another reason not to tar them with the same brush as Rangers.

Apparently these EBT schemes have been used in England (Arsenal were rumoured to use them a lot) to pay players for 'image rights', something which is not a payment in return for football services per se, in order not to breach league rules. I suppose that may have been done in order to compete with foreign clubs on wages, where foreign clubs offer salaries net of tax and have lower tax to pay than in the UK.

The SPL clubs have been jealous of Rangers and their success for years. The fools thought this was their chance to bury the club and formed an ugly alliance to try to finish us off.

One thing that the mugs did not account for is the fact that the worlds most successful club has winning engrained in everything we do. Yesterday's victory proved that once again that good will overcome despite the lies, bile and hatred that was raked up principally by the no mark Liewell and followed by charlatans like Thomson and Petrie.

SPL, no thanks. You are welcome to your wee tainted charade.

what I don't understand is this . . .

if rangers are dead, why are so many celtic fans so obsessed with this little 3rd division team?

the night that celtic beat barcelona in the champions league there were celtic fans on here after the game wondering if sevco fans were raging or not.
they had just beaten the best team in the world in the biggest club competition in the world and all they could think about was what was going on with another club and it's fans.

you would think that fans would spend more time thinking about their own team and less thinking about any other team.

Well said Travel old boy!!
Never mind notsoshrewd,he is obsessed with oldco, newco,sevco and dunn&co.

Dignity? Your team cheated the tax payer out of about £15-20 million. Do you know what dignity is? It wasn't a trial it was a tax tribunal. They concluded that Rangers bill from HMRC should have been substantially less but that they still owe tax in some cases of EBT use. Which clubs had found you guilty before trial?

You are trying to take the moral high ground by saying everybody got it wrong we aren't tax cheats to £100 million like you said only to £20 million. It's hard to decide if you are actually being serious with such comments.

I'll pass thanks. I'm just a hardworking taxpayer who believes old fashioned values like honesty, integrity and dignity mean something. You enjoy your game little buddy.

Ach well, it could have been so good. We have so much in common as I happen to be a hard worker also. Alas I do not pay any income tax. I hope you understand that sometimes this can be perfectly legal, HMRC are quite happy with the arrangement and at the moment there does not seem to be any plans to stop it......lets just hope I do not get one of those special inspectors that have been involved in the recent witch hunt.

If you ever do fancy a seat among the good upstanding citizens of Glasgow, give me a holler and I will sort you out with one of the sought after seats.

The now dead Rangers FC owed more than £5.5million is owed to “trade creditors” – including and a lady called Susan Thomson who runs a face-painting business. She is owed £40,the Scottish Ambulance Service £8438 and Mr Bhattia the newsagent is owed £534.14 (Ali's Monster Muncj bill?).

And those millions in taxes; how many soldiers,airmen,sailors, doctors and nurses would that have paid for? As was presciently said by Ian ARcher although years ago '"This has to be said about Rangers…as a Scottish Football club they are a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace. This country would be a better place if Rangers did not exist".

They no longer exist although their new wee tribute band continue to wave the Ibrox flags of bigotry, apartheid and ignorance.

Tax avoidance, very distasteful. Are you telling me that if you had an opportunity to offset your tax liability you would refuse? Aye right. Here are some examples of distasteful behaviour....threatening referees and their families, vandalising graves of employees of rival clubs, booing/chanting during rememberance day minute silence. Does that ring any bells?

As for hatters (another one to add to the obsessed list), using Ian Archer as your reference for credible opinion is laughable. Next you will be quoting the disgraced BBC (who are proving to have lot more in common with one of those unfortunate SPL clubs than we all expected). I hate to spoil your wee dream, the famous Glasgow Rangers are very much alive. I could not care less for revenge on diddy SPL clubs, I honestly hope that you lot never darken our door again.

Celtic made a bigger donation to the neglected injured soldier fund than Rangers pay in total squad weekly wages put together.

You donated over 10K ? You will be buying shares in Rangers then i take it

Any Rangers F. C. shareholders care to explain why " The Herald " still quotes a share price for the Oldco . It is listed daily , under the PLUS category . The price is 12.5p , and it hasn't moved for ages . Is this just sloppy journalism , or do the shares remain active ?

Still a club who did not pay any taxes for over a year and conned small business's out of millions of pounds.

So how the fukc can they be upset?

Rangers fans hit out at HMRC following Big Tax Case

23 Nov 2012 08:25
HUGH KEEVINS takes your calls as the fallout from the Rangers tax case rumbles on.


Fans raise a banner on the gates of Ibrox
THE Hotline really should come to you in a brown envelope with a window for the relevant address because it’s all about tax.

The depth of feeling surrounding the verdict which has cleared Rangers oldco of any wrongdoing concerning the use of EBTs hasn’t even begun to be fully established yet.

Anger is about to be unleashed and this must also be the first tax issue in history which divides public opinion based on which team you support.

That’s why some of the following must be taken with this column’s customary pinch of salt.

But Stuart McLeod, Glasgow, was genuinely upset when he said: “Hopefully the verdict in Rangers’ favour will put an end to the childish sniping from supporters of other clubs. It took two years to establish Rangers’ innocence and two minutes for the rest of Scottish football to decide we were guilty.

“The SPL also joined in this juggernaut of destruction and they should hang their heads in shame. Whatever happened to innocent until proved guilty?”

David Gardiner, Glasgow, e-mailed: “Given the fact that HMRC sent Rangers’ oldco to the wall, shouldn’t they now be liable for the shares and debentures that were lost by fans like myself?”

And Jim McBeth, Glasgow, said: “HMRC has an agenda against Rangers and that was what created the witch-hunt against the club.”

Bryce Wilson, Glasgow, e-mailed: “Will other clubs in Scotland now be pursued over their use of EBTs? If not, why not?

“I’m interested in this sporting integrity everyone talks about, or is this witch-hunt reserved for Rangers alone?”

David Runham, Southampton, said: “Can someone explain to me why HMRC are wasting millions of pounds of taxpayers money on an appeal against the verdict that favoured Rangers when, even if they were successful, they won’t get a penny back?”

Hugh McPhail, Duntocher, said: “The Scottish Plonkers League has more faces than the town hall clock. Will the clubs in it now admit they were being premature when they put the boot into Rangers?”

I believe this is called coming straight to the point.

Speaking of which, Ian Barr, Irvine, said: “Somebody must be held to account for the way in which Rangers have been made to suffer.

“We are the victims of jealousy and hatred and have been forced out of Europe and forced into losing our best players.”

And Rab Fleming, East Kilbride, said: “HMRC put Sir David Murray under stress and he sold the club to a man who created the circumstances which led to a transfer embargo being imposed on Rangers. We must have a strong claim for compensation from HMRC.”

Or Mister Whyte.

Stevie Hill, Tranent, wasn’t happy in the midst of victory. He said: “The verdict offers me hollow comfort because my club lost its original name, and where was the like of Michael Mols when Rangers could have used some of his money to avoid administration?”

Then William Gateley, Glasgow, said: “The Rangers haters have had an obsession with the tax case. Now they can get back to filling the empty seats in their own grounds.”

But Edward Easson e-mailed an equally sarcastic response to the outraged Rangers fans.

He said: “If you earn money in the UK do you pay tax? The answer to the question is in the affirmative if you’re one of the little people and a resounding ‘No’ if you sell coffee or play for Rangers.”

William McCord, Glasgow, saw that sarcasm and raised the pot.

He said; “Will the BBC devote as much air time to how HMRC got it wrong as they did to
hounding Rangers ?”

And Frank O’Donnell, Ralston, said: “Rangers were not found totally innocent in a two to one verdict. The taxman must appeal these findings.”

Ian Wylie, Paisley, said: “No miscarriage of justice has taken place. A degree of doubt was in the mind of the person who voted to find Rangers guilty of mis-using EBTs.”

Gerard Deacon, Kilsyth said: “If the EBTs were a loan, how many of those players and staff at Rangers paid them back? I wish I could get my bank to give me a loan like that.”

But anger remained the majority verdict.

Ian McLean, Aberdeen, said: “What’s happened to Rangers is a disgrace and there should be a full, public inquiry into the events that have left us where we are.”

And Jimmy Neil, Glasgow, put a price on his frustration when he said: “I believe the SPL should be sued for£50million for making Scotland the laughing stock of the football world.

“They shirked their responsibility and let the SFL decide Rangers’ fate.”

Gerard Connelly, Glasgow, e-mailed: “There were people who were hoping and praying Rangers would be found guilty of tax avoidance without bothering to wait for the verdict. This was the frenzied bloodlust of a piranha.”

Steady.

Lewis McDonald, Armadale, said: “The general attitude within Scottish football and sections of the media appears to be that Rangers deserve all they get.

“But which SPL chairman will be the first to apologise for hounding the club out of there and forcing them into the SFL?”

Let’s end on what was as close as we got to elements of humour.

Stevie Campbell, Glasgow, said: “In the immortal words of Mel Gibson, ‘They can take away our SPL status, but they’ll never take our titles.’”

And Alec Cameron, Erskine, said: “Now that Rangers have been found to be as pure as the driven snow, is there any chance that some day we can actually get back to talking about the fitba’?”

What an old fashioned guy you are, Alec.

Lewis McDonald, Armadale, said: “The general attitude within Scottish football and sections of the media appears to be that Rangers deserve all they get.

“But which SPL chairman will be the first to apologise for hounding the club out of there and forcing them into the SFL?”

A lot of good stuff their but this one is definately my favourite. Has he been living in a cave for the last year and missed Rangers going in to administration and liquidation because they couldn't pay their debts?

Travelrug

Have you wiped the year and a half when Rangers refused to pay tax and all the small business's from your memory?

Can you explain why rangers are innocent?

If they had paid these debts they would'nt have gone into admiistration,then liquidation.

Or am i missing something?