Darts
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06 Jan 13
16:47
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04 Aug 03
ever since the split in darts the oche has been dominated by these two leviathans . whilst the power dominated on sky , wolfie racked up the bbc event year after year, as in years gone by with coe and ovett in athletics and more recently in boxing with floyd mayweather and manny pacquaio we as the sporting public were denied the chance to see who was best. but now after watching the ravages of father time catch up with adams while taylor still goes strong the debate is over, i just hope martin retires so we can remember him at his best and not this sad spectacle on double one after 24 darts. It reminded me a bit of ali against berbick. thankfully you cant get hurt in darts.
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Replies: 60
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Was there EVER really a debate?
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no room for aftertimers on here.
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bizarre thread
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yeh but who has 2467 England caps
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Getting sarcasm not peoples strong points when replying to this thread I guess
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LONG LIVE THE ENGLAND CAPTAIN
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debate
 he hid from taylor ffs |
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most one sided debate in the history of debates!
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Three titles and averaged 84 today.
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Presumably Adams is Berbick. You can't in all seriousness compare him to Ali.
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its an ananology of a once great champion being humbled by the next generation. for adams to average 84 must be unheard of. dont quote me but i assume at his best he'd have been anywhere between 105 and 110.
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105 , 110 , you havin a laugh?
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Three winning finals, 90, 95 and 92 averages. No one has had a 100 average, the bet was Taylor and Fordham in the 97.xx range.
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105, 110
 wolfie wudnt average that in practice |
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Adams wouldnt average 110 with 4 darts
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BDO averages have always been less than PDC ( still a debate as to whether the boards used by the BDO and PDC are different )
wolfie will be back |
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"wolfie racked up the bbc event year after year"
Took him 12 years to reach a final and 14 to win one. Current total is 3 wins from 19 attempts. |
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wolfie had England duties to think about
would have won 10 on the spin if he wasnt should a patriot. |
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such a patriot*
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How many England games clash with he world championship ?
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Wolfie must have been gutted when he got left out the england team for both world cup of darts. Fat Wadey in ahead of him.
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Fat Wadey was two years ago...I think you mean Fat Adie
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I never understand the whole debate of PDC better than BDO etc as it's irrelevant - nearly all the players on the PDC played in the BDO before they switched codes to the PDC so it's a pointless argument. Also the point about the averages could also be irrelevant as the boards could be different as nicky says. Van Gerwin certainly didn't average around 100 on a regular basis when he played in the BDO but he seems to recently in the PDC but he may have just improved 10 points, Taylor same rules apply as he was obviously very young when he played in the BDO. I suppose the best benchmark to use would be Barny who i wouldn't have thought has improved massively from the BDO to the PDC given his age and what he has won in both circuits as he seemed to be at his peak for a couple of years in the BDO but to his credit was exceptional when he beat Taylor 7-6 in that PDC WC Final. Anyone know Barneys averages for all his World Championship Finals on both circuits out of interest?
The BDO is a great code as it allows the talent to come through globally. |
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pdc strenght and depth and more tournys on a reguler basis improves players. hence mvgs avg up by 10 points
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I agree the PDC has greater strength in depth but nearly all their players came from the BDO and if it didn't exist then i think it could be harder for some talents to progress like Van Gerwin as when they are younger and coming through the ranks rather than playing similar younger talents or a guy who is a seasoned campaigner they could be thrown in early doors and get destroyed by players like Taylor, Wade, Lewis etc on a regular basis. Also does anyone know if the size of the trebles on both boards are the same?
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Year Champion (Titles)[6] Average in final Score Runner-Up Average in final Total
Prize Money Champion Runner-Up Venue Sponsor 1978 Leighton Rees 92.40 11–7 legs John Lowe 89.40 £10,500 £3,000 £1,700 Heart of the Midlands Club, Nottingham Embassy (Worldwide Promotions, Imperial Tobacco) 1979 John Lowe (1/3) 87.42 5–0 sets Leighton Rees 76.62 £15,000 £4,500 £2,000 Jollees Cabaret Club, Stoke-on-Trent 1980 Eric Bristow (1/5) 88.10 5–3 Bobby George 86.49 £15,000 £4,500 £2,000 1981 Eric Bristow (2/5) 86.10 5–3 John Lowe 81.00 £23,300 £5,500 £2,500 1982 Jocky Wilson (1/2) 88.10 5–3 John Lowe 84.30 £28,000 £6,500 £3,000 1983 Keith Deller 90.00 6–5 Eric Bristow 93.90 £33,050 £8,000 £3,500 1984 Eric Bristow (3/5) 97.50 7–1 Dave Whitcombe 90.60 £38,500 £9,000 £4,000 1985 Eric Bristow (4/5) 97.50 6–2 John Lowe 93.12 £43,000 £10,000 £5,000 1986 Eric Bristow (5/5) 94.47 6–0 Dave Whitcombe 90.45 £52,500 £12,000 £6,000 Lakeside Country Club, Frimley Green, Surrey 1987 John Lowe (2/3) 90.63 6–4 Eric Bristow 94.29 £60,300 £14,000 £7,000 1988 Bob Anderson 92.70 6–4 John Lowe 92.07 £71,600 £16,000 £8,000 1989 Jocky Wilson (2/2) 94.32 6–4 Eric Bristow 90.66 £86,900 £20,000 £10,000 1990 Phil Taylor (1/2) 97.47 6–1 Eric Bristow 93.00 £153,200 [7] £24,000 £12,000 1991 Dennis Priestley 92.57 6–0 Eric Bristow 84.15 £110,500 £26,000 £13,000 1992 Phil Taylor (2/2) 97.59 6–5 Mike Gregory 94.41 £119,500 £28,000 £14,000 1993 John Lowe (3/3) 83.97 6–3 Alan Warriner 82.32 £128,500 £30,000 £15,000 1994 John Part 82.44 6–0 Bobby George 80.31 £136,100 £32,000 £16,000 1995 Richie Burnett 93.63 6–3 Raymond van Barneveld 91.23 £143,000 £34,000 £17,000 1996 Steve Beaton 90.27 6–3 Richie Burnett 88.05 £150,000 £36,000 £18,000 1997 Les Wallace 92.19 6–3 Marshall James 92.01 £158,000 £38,000 £19,000 1998 Raymond van Barneveld (1/4) 93.96 6–5 Richie Burnett 97.14 £166,000 £40,000 £20,000 1999 Raymond van Barneveld (2/4) 94.65 6–5 Ronnie Baxter 94.65 £174,000 £42,000 £21,000 2000 Ted Hankey (1/2) 92.40 6–0 Ronnie Baxter 88.35 £182,000 £44,000 £22,000 2001 John Walton 95.55 6–2 Ted Hankey 94.86 £189,000 £46,000 £23,000 2002 Tony David 93.57 6–4 Mervyn King 89.67 £197,000 £48,000 £24,000 2003 Raymond van Barneveld (3/4) 94.86 6–3 Ritchie Davies 90.66 £205,000 £50,000 £25,000 2004 Andy Fordham 97.08 6–3 Mervyn King 91.02 £201,000 £50,000 £25,000 Lakeside Country Club 2005 Raymond van Barneveld (4/4) 96.78 6–2 Martin Adams 91.35 £201,000 £50,000 £25,000 2006 Jelle Klaasen 90.42 7–5 Raymond van Barneveld 93.06 £211,000 [8] £60,000 £25,000 2007 Martin Adams (1/3) 90.30 7–6 Phill Nixon 87.09 £226,000 £70,000 £30,000 2008 Mark Webster 92.07 7–5 Simon Whitlock 93.92 £246,000 £85,000 £30,000 2009 Ted Hankey (2/2) 91.46 7–6 Tony O'Shea 90.54 £256,000 £95,000 £30,000 2010 Martin Adams (2/3) 95.01 7–5 Dave Chisnall 93.42 £261,000 £100,000 £30,000 2011 Martin Adams (3/3) 92.13 7–5 Dean Winstanley 89.08 £261,000 £100,000 £30,000 2012 Christian Kist 90.00 7–5 Tony O'Shea 87.78 £258,000 £100,000 £30,000 |
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PDC
Year Champion (average in final)[3] Score Runner-Up (average in final) Sponsor Prize Money Venue Total[4] Champion Runner-Up 1994 Dennis Priestley (94.38) 6–1 Phil Taylor (90.62) Skol £64,000 £16,000 £8,000 Circus Tavern, Purfleet 1995 Phil Taylor (1/14) (94.11) 6–2 Rod Harrington (87.15) Proton Cars £55,000 £12,000 £6,000 1996 Phil Taylor (2/14) (98.52) 6–4 Dennis Priestley (101.49) Vernons £61,000 £14,000 £7,000 1997 Phil Taylor (3/14) (100.92) 6–3 Dennis Priestley (96.78) Red Band £98,000 £45,000 £10,000 1998 Phil Taylor (4/14) (103.98) 6–0 Dennis Priestley (90.75) Skol £71,000 £20,000 £10,000 1999 Phil Taylor (5/14) (97.11) 6–2 Peter Manley (93.63) £104,000 £30,000 £16,000 2000 Phil Taylor (6/14) (94.42) 7–3 Dennis Priestley (91.80) £110,000 £31,000 £16,400 2001 Phil Taylor (7/14) (107.46) 7–0 John Part (92.58) £124,000 £33,000 £18,000 2002 Phil Taylor (8/14) (98.47) 7–0 Peter Manley (91.35) £200,000 £50,000 £25,000 2003 John Part (1/2) (96.87) 7–6 Phil Taylor (99.98) Ladbrokes £200,000 £50,000 £25,000 2004 Phil Taylor (9/14) (96.03) 7–6 Kevin Painter (90.48) £256,000 £50,000 £25,000 2005 Phil Taylor (10/14) (96.14) 7–4 Mark Dudbridge (90.66) £300,000 £60,000 £30,000 2006 Phil Taylor (11/14) (106.74) 7–0 Peter Manley (91.72) £500,000 £100,000 £50,000 2007 Raymond van Barneveld (100.93) 7–6 Phil Taylor (100.86) £500,000 £100,000 £50,000 2008 John Part (2/2) (92.86) 7–2 Kirk Shepherd (85.10) £589,000 £100,000 £50,000 Alexandra Palace, London 2009 Phil Taylor (12/14) (110.94) 7–1 Raymond van Barneveld (101.18) £724,000 £125,000 £60,000 2010 Phil Taylor (13/14) (104.38) 7–3 Simon Whitlock (100.51) £1,000,000 £200,000 £100,000 2011 Adrian Lewis (1/2) (99.40) 7–5 Gary Anderson (99.41) £1,000,000 £200,000 £100,000 2012 Adrian Lewis (2/2) (93.06) 7–3 Andy Hamilton (90.83) £1,000,000 £200,000 £100,000 2013 Phil Taylor (14/14) (103.04) 7–4 Michael van Gerwen (100.66) £1,000,000 £200,000 £100,000 |
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"I suppose the best benchmark to use would be Barny who i wouldn't have thought has improved massively from the BDO to the PDC"
Of course he would've improved because he would be coming up against top players on a more regular basis. Interestingly i notice that Adams improved his average from 90 to 95 and he's well into his 50s so no reason why Barney wouldn't improve being 10 years younger |
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Very interesting Harry, thanks very much. Phil Taylor is exceptional, not a big of the guy myself but as a darts player he is amazing it must be said. Also the averages of Barney are very informative. In my opinion, i don't think he's a better player on the PDC than what he used to be on the BDO yet his average has been over around 5-7 points higher in the finals of the PDC compared to the finals of the BDO which suggests the boards are more difficult in the BDO or maybe he played within himself in the BDO? Also taking out someone like Simon Whitlock who averaged 93.92 in the 2008 BDO final yet averaged 100.51 in the 2010 PDC final did he improve best part of 7 points in two years?
Other side of the coin is Phil Taylors average in the BDO finals were higher than when he first started the PDC when his averages eventually went off the scale - was this just down to improvement or did the boards get slightly easier? Also, the point you make the bhoys is a very good one, regular tournaments against players of an overall higher standard will improve your average over time. It does also show that averages aren't everything as sometimes the better player with the higher average by some way has got beat and someone like Painter who averaged 90 could and should have beaten Taylor who averaged 96+. It is odd though that players like Taylor, Bristow, Priestley, Barney etc have been in the final of both codes but none of them managed to average over 100 in the BDO final (considering Whitlock averaged over 100 in his PDC final). |
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I think the whole playing better players on a more regular basis improves your average is of course true but i think only goes so far as in darts you are always trying to win first and foremost and win a leg/set as quickly as you can regardless of who you are playing. The other guy isn't throwing the darts for you.
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Im certain that even when Barney was world champion in the BDO he still had to work as a postman to earn money. Now he's full time you can practice more and improve. Chucks a decent dart and believe he writes and does most things left handed.
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The practise thing is probably also applicable to Whitlock too. When he was in the BDO he lived in Australia, working as a brickie and probably spent most of his time playing in national tournaments there which are obviously of a poorer standard.
But once he joined the PDC tour he'd have moved to Europe, had the money behind him and been able to practise a lot more. So it's no surprise he will have improved. |
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"Very interesting Harry, thanks very much. Phil Taylor is exceptional, not a big of the guy myself but as a darts player he is amazing it must be said. Also the averages of Barney are very informative. In my opinion, i don't think he's a better player on the PDC than what he used to be on the BDO yet his average has been over around 5-7 points higher in the finals of the PDC compared to the finals of the BDO which suggests the boards are more difficult in the BDO or maybe he played within himself in the BDO?"
Couple of points... 1. Barney certainly improved when he first came to the PDC and changed his darts. He had Taylor's number on a few occasions and forced Taylor to change his darts and up his game which led to Taylor hitting 105+ averages on a regular basis in 2008/2009. It was after this Barney shrunk as a player because Taylor was just destroying him, especially in that second final they played when Taylor averaged over 110. 2. This nonsense about the boards. Barney managed to hit a 103 average in the BDO (the highest ever). He was always capable of hitting big averages and once he got to the PDC which has more tournaments and a tour he obviously started doing it more regularly. "Also taking out someone like Simon Whitlock who averaged 93.92 in the 2008 BDO final yet averaged 100.51 in the 2010 PDC final did he improve best part of 7 points in two years?" Whitlock was always capable of hitting big averages and he turned into some kind of Jedi in the 2010 Championships. He was without a sponsor and needed to make a name for himself so he probably practiced more than ever. Also worth remembering that players averages always look high when they play Taylor because they rarely get a shot at a double when he's got a 105 - 120 average. |
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You say all this nonsense about the boards, someone else posted on another thread that the trebele beds are 23% smaller in BDO, is this true? I don't know and am just interested to know the answer whether or not the boards have the same specifications but nobody seems to answer this simple question.
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Of course they're not
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The simple answer is the PDC has better conditions than the BDO as you all say which i agree with, more money, more time to practice, still don't know what the situation is regarding the boards, etc so it's all conducive to higher scoring averages. If you gave guys like Bristow the same conditions back in his peak he would have easily averaged over 100. So people should enjoy the BDO for what it is, every year you get a couple of world class dart players, a lot of youth coming through often one goes onto be world class, a lot of seasoned campaigners who get a chance on the big stage whilst holding down other jobs and general global interest. Take out Phil Taylor, Barney and most guys like Waites, O Shea and Adams back in the day from the BDO given the conditions of the PDC would bump up their averages to the likes of Dudbridge, Wade, Lewis etc and be equally as successful.
I think Barney would have changed his darts any way given the way he buckled under the pressure and lost to his fellow countryman in the BDO a year earlier. Also, I doubt we will see a 110 average performance like we saw from Taylor in that final for a long time - it was basically off the scale |
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its an accepted fact now that the bdo boards are slightly more difficult. look at waites,s averages in the grand slam compared to his lakeside averages. also more bounce outs on the bdo boards
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