Martin Adams Phil Taylor- the debate is over.

Was there EVER really a debate?

no room for aftertimers on here.

bizarre thread

yeh but who has 2467 England caps

Getting sarcasm not peoples strong points when replying to this thread I guess

LONG LIVE THE ENGLAND CAPTAIN

debate he hid from taylor ffs

most one sided debate in the history of debates!

Three titles and averaged 84 today.

Presumably Adams is Berbick. You can't in all seriousness compare him to Ali.

its an ananology of a once great champion  being humbled by the next generation. for adams to average 84  must be unheard of.  dont quote me but i assume at his best  he'd have been anywhere between 105 and 110.

105 , 110 , you havin a laugh?

Three winning finals, 90, 95 and 92 averages. No one has had a 100 average, the bet was Taylor and Fordham in the 97.xx range.

105, 110 wolfie wudnt average that in practice

Adams wouldnt average 110 with 4 darts

BDO averages have always been less than PDC  ( still a debate as to whether the boards used by the BDO and PDC are different )
wolfie will be back

"wolfie racked up the bbc event year after year"




Took him 12 years to reach a final and 14 to win one.

Current total is 3 wins from 19 attempts.

wolfie had England duties to think about

would have won 10 on the spin if he wasnt should a patriot.

such a patriot*

How many England games clash with he world championship ?

Wolfie must have been gutted when he got left out the england team for both world cup of darts. Fat Wadey in ahead of him.

Fat Wadey was two years ago...I think you mean Fat Adie

I never understand the whole debate of PDC better than BDO etc as it's irrelevant - nearly all the players on the PDC played in the BDO before they switched codes to the PDC so it's a pointless argument. Also the point about the averages could also be irrelevant as the boards could be different as nicky says. Van Gerwin certainly didn't average around 100 on a regular basis when he played in the BDO but he seems to recently in the PDC but he may have just improved 10 points, Taylor same rules apply as he was obviously very young when he played in the BDO. I suppose the best benchmark to use would be Barny who i wouldn't have thought has improved massively from the BDO to the PDC given his age and what he has won in both circuits as he seemed to be at his peak for a couple of years in the BDO but to his credit was exceptional when he beat Taylor 7-6 in that PDC WC Final. Anyone know Barneys averages for all his World Championship Finals on both circuits out of interest?

The BDO is a great code as it allows the talent to come through globally.

pdc strenght and depth and more tournys on a reguler basis improves players. hence mvgs avg up by 10 points

I agree the PDC has greater strength in depth but nearly all their players came from the BDO and if it didn't exist then i think it could be harder for some talents to progress like Van Gerwin as when they are younger and coming through the ranks rather than playing similar younger talents or a guy who is a seasoned campaigner they could be thrown in early doors and get destroyed by players like Taylor, Wade, Lewis etc on a regular basis. Also does anyone know if the size of the trebles on both boards are the same?

Year    Champion (Titles)[6]    Average in final    Score    Runner-Up    Average in final    Total
Prize Money    Champion    Runner-Up    Venue    Sponsor
1978     Leighton Rees    92.40    11–7 legs     John Lowe    89.40    £10,500    £3,000    £1,700    Heart of the Midlands Club, Nottingham    Embassy (Worldwide Promotions, Imperial Tobacco)
1979     John Lowe (1/3)    87.42    5–0 sets     Leighton Rees    76.62    £15,000    £4,500    £2,000    Jollees Cabaret Club, Stoke-on-Trent
1980     Eric Bristow (1/5)    88.10    5–3     Bobby George    86.49    £15,000    £4,500    £2,000
1981     Eric Bristow (2/5)    86.10    5–3     John Lowe    81.00    £23,300    £5,500    £2,500
1982     Jocky Wilson (1/2)    88.10    5–3     John Lowe    84.30    £28,000    £6,500    £3,000
1983     Keith Deller    90.00    6–5     Eric Bristow    93.90    £33,050    £8,000    £3,500
1984     Eric Bristow (3/5)    97.50    7–1     Dave Whitcombe    90.60    £38,500    £9,000    £4,000
1985     Eric Bristow (4/5)    97.50    6–2     John Lowe    93.12    £43,000    £10,000    £5,000
1986     Eric Bristow (5/5)    94.47    6–0     Dave Whitcombe    90.45    £52,500    £12,000    £6,000    Lakeside Country Club, Frimley Green, Surrey
1987     John Lowe (2/3)    90.63    6–4     Eric Bristow    94.29    £60,300    £14,000    £7,000
1988     Bob Anderson    92.70    6–4     John Lowe    92.07    £71,600    £16,000    £8,000
1989     Jocky Wilson (2/2)    94.32    6–4     Eric Bristow    90.66    £86,900    £20,000    £10,000
1990     Phil Taylor (1/2)    97.47    6–1     Eric Bristow    93.00    £153,200 [7]    £24,000    £12,000
1991     Dennis Priestley    92.57    6–0     Eric Bristow    84.15    £110,500    £26,000    £13,000
1992     Phil Taylor (2/2)    97.59    6–5     Mike Gregory    94.41    £119,500    £28,000    £14,000
1993     John Lowe (3/3)    83.97    6–3     Alan Warriner    82.32    £128,500    £30,000    £15,000
1994     John Part    82.44    6–0     Bobby George    80.31    £136,100    £32,000    £16,000
1995     Richie Burnett    93.63    6–3    Raymond van Barneveld    91.23    £143,000    £34,000    £17,000
1996     Steve Beaton    90.27    6–3     Richie Burnett    88.05    £150,000    £36,000    £18,000
1997     Les Wallace    92.19    6–3     Marshall James    92.01    £158,000    £38,000    £19,000
1998     Raymond van Barneveld (1/4)    93.96    6–5     Richie Burnett    97.14    £166,000    £40,000    £20,000
1999     Raymond van Barneveld (2/4)    94.65    6–5     Ronnie Baxter    94.65    £174,000    £42,000    £21,000
2000     Ted Hankey (1/2)    92.40    6–0     Ronnie Baxter    88.35    £182,000    £44,000    £22,000
2001     John Walton    95.55    6–2     Ted Hankey    94.86    £189,000    £46,000    £23,000
2002     Tony David    93.57    6–4     Mervyn King    89.67    £197,000    £48,000    £24,000
2003     Raymond van Barneveld (3/4)    94.86    6–3     Ritchie Davies    90.66    £205,000    £50,000    £25,000
2004     Andy Fordham    97.08    6–3     Mervyn King    91.02    £201,000    £50,000    £25,000    Lakeside Country Club
2005     Raymond van Barneveld (4/4)    96.78    6–2     Martin Adams    91.35    £201,000    £50,000    £25,000
2006     Jelle Klaasen    90.42    7–5    Raymond van Barneveld    93.06    £211,000 [8]    £60,000    £25,000
2007     Martin Adams (1/3)    90.30    7–6     Phill Nixon    87.09    £226,000    £70,000    £30,000
2008     Mark Webster    92.07    7–5     Simon Whitlock    93.92    £246,000    £85,000    £30,000
2009     Ted Hankey (2/2)    91.46    7–6     Tony O'Shea    90.54    £256,000    £95,000    £30,000
2010     Martin Adams (2/3)    95.01    7–5     Dave Chisnall    93.42    £261,000    £100,000    £30,000
2011     Martin Adams (3/3)    92.13    7–5     Dean Winstanley    89.08    £261,000    £100,000    £30,000
2012     Christian Kist    90.00    7–5     Tony O'Shea    87.78    £258,000    £100,000    £30,000

PDC


Year    Champion (average in final)[3]    Score    Runner-Up (average in final)    Sponsor    Prize Money    Venue
Total[4]    Champion    Runner-Up
1994     Dennis Priestley (94.38)    6–1     Phil Taylor (90.62)    Skol    £64,000    £16,000    £8,000    Circus Tavern, Purfleet
1995     Phil Taylor (1/14) (94.11)    6–2     Rod Harrington (87.15)    Proton Cars    £55,000    £12,000    £6,000
1996     Phil Taylor (2/14) (98.52)    6–4     Dennis Priestley (101.49)    Vernons    £61,000    £14,000    £7,000
1997     Phil Taylor (3/14) (100.92)    6–3     Dennis Priestley (96.78)    Red Band    £98,000    £45,000    £10,000
1998     Phil Taylor (4/14) (103.98)    6–0     Dennis Priestley (90.75)    Skol    £71,000    £20,000    £10,000
1999     Phil Taylor (5/14) (97.11)    6–2     Peter Manley (93.63)    £104,000    £30,000    £16,000
2000     Phil Taylor (6/14) (94.42)    7–3     Dennis Priestley (91.80)    £110,000    £31,000    £16,400
2001     Phil Taylor (7/14) (107.46)    7–0     John Part (92.58)    £124,000    £33,000    £18,000
2002     Phil Taylor (8/14) (98.47)    7–0     Peter Manley (91.35)    £200,000    £50,000    £25,000
2003     John Part (1/2) (96.87)    7–6     Phil Taylor (99.98)    Ladbrokes    £200,000    £50,000    £25,000
2004     Phil Taylor (9/14) (96.03)    7–6     Kevin Painter (90.48)    £256,000    £50,000    £25,000
2005     Phil Taylor (10/14) (96.14)    7–4     Mark Dudbridge (90.66)    £300,000    £60,000    £30,000
2006     Phil Taylor (11/14) (106.74)    7–0     Peter Manley (91.72)    £500,000    £100,000    £50,000
2007     Raymond van Barneveld (100.93)    7–6     Phil Taylor (100.86)    £500,000    £100,000    £50,000
2008     John Part (2/2) (92.86)    7–2     Kirk Shepherd (85.10)    £589,000    £100,000    £50,000    Alexandra Palace, London
2009     Phil Taylor (12/14) (110.94)    7–1     Raymond van Barneveld (101.18)    £724,000    £125,000    £60,000
2010     Phil Taylor (13/14) (104.38)    7–3     Simon Whitlock (100.51)    £1,000,000    £200,000    £100,000
2011     Adrian Lewis (1/2) (99.40)    7–5     Gary Anderson (99.41)    £1,000,000    £200,000    £100,000
2012     Adrian Lewis (2/2) (93.06)    7–3     Andy Hamilton (90.83)    £1,000,000    £200,000    £100,000
2013     Phil Taylor (14/14) (103.04)    7–4     Michael van Gerwen (100.66)    £1,000,000    £200,000    £100,000

"I suppose the best benchmark to use would be Barny who i wouldn't have thought has improved massively from the BDO to the PDC"




Of course he would've improved because he would be coming up against top players on a more regular basis.

Interestingly i notice that Adams improved his average from 90 to 95 and he's well into his 50s so no reason why Barney wouldn't improve being 10 years younger

Very interesting Harry, thanks very much. Phil Taylor is exceptional, not a big of the guy myself but as a darts player he is amazing it must be said. Also the averages of Barney are very informative. In my opinion, i don't think he's a better player on the PDC than what he used to be on the BDO yet his average has been over around 5-7 points higher in the finals of the PDC compared to the finals of the BDO which suggests the boards are more difficult in the BDO or maybe he played within himself in the BDO? Also taking out someone like Simon Whitlock who averaged 93.92 in the 2008 BDO final yet averaged 100.51 in the 2010 PDC final did he improve best part of 7 points in two years?

Other side of the coin is Phil Taylors average in the BDO finals were higher than when he first started the PDC when his averages eventually went off the scale - was this just down to improvement or did the boards get slightly easier?

Also, the point you make the bhoys is a very good one, regular tournaments against players of an overall higher standard will improve your average over time.

It does also show that averages aren't everything as sometimes the better player with the higher average by some way has got beat and someone like Painter who averaged 90 could and should have beaten Taylor who averaged 96+.

It is odd though that players like Taylor, Bristow, Priestley, Barney etc have been in the final of both codes but none of them managed to average over 100 in the BDO final (considering Whitlock averaged over 100 in his PDC final).

I think the whole playing better players on a more regular basis improves your average is of course true but i think only goes so far as in darts you are always trying to win first and foremost and win a leg/set as quickly as you can regardless of who you are playing. The other guy isn't throwing the darts for you.

Im certain that even when Barney was world champion in the BDO he still had to work as a postman to earn money. Now he's full time you can practice more and improve. Chucks a decent dart and believe he writes and does most things left handed.

The practise thing is probably also applicable to Whitlock too. When he was in the BDO he lived in Australia, working as a brickie and probably spent most of his time playing in national tournaments there which are obviously of a poorer standard.

But once he joined the PDC tour he'd have moved to Europe, had the money behind him and been able to practise a lot more. So it's no surprise he will have improved.

"Very interesting Harry, thanks very much. Phil Taylor is exceptional, not a big of the guy myself but as a darts player he is amazing it must be said. Also the averages of Barney are very informative. In my opinion, i don't think he's a better player on the PDC than what he used to be on the BDO yet his average has been over around 5-7 points higher in the finals of the PDC compared to the finals of the BDO which suggests the boards are more difficult in the BDO or maybe he played within himself in the BDO?"

Couple of points...

1. Barney certainly improved when he first came to the PDC and changed his darts. He had Taylor's number on a few occasions and forced Taylor to change his darts and up his game which led to Taylor hitting 105+ averages on a regular basis in 2008/2009. It was after this Barney shrunk as a player because Taylor was just destroying him, especially in that second final they played when Taylor averaged over 110.

2. This nonsense about the boards. Barney managed to hit a 103 average in the BDO (the highest ever). He was always capable of hitting big averages and once he got to the PDC which has more tournaments and a tour he obviously started doing it more regularly.



"Also taking out someone like Simon Whitlock who averaged 93.92 in the 2008 BDO final yet averaged 100.51 in the 2010 PDC final did he improve best part of 7 points in two years?"

Whitlock was always capable of hitting big averages and he turned into some kind of Jedi in the 2010 Championships. He was without a sponsor and needed to make a name for himself so he probably practiced more than ever.

Also worth remembering that players averages always look high when they play Taylor because they rarely get a shot at a double when he's got a 105 - 120 average.

You say all this nonsense about the boards, someone else posted on another thread that the trebele beds are 23% smaller in BDO, is this true? I don't know and am just interested to know the answer whether or not the boards have the same specifications but nobody seems to answer this simple question.

Of course they're not

The simple answer is the PDC has better conditions than the BDO as you all say which i agree with, more money, more time to practice, still don't know what the situation is regarding the boards, etc so it's all conducive to higher scoring averages. If you gave guys like Bristow the same conditions back in his peak he would have easily averaged over 100. So people should enjoy the BDO for what it is, every year you get a couple of world class dart players, a lot of youth coming through often one goes onto be world class, a lot of seasoned campaigners who get a chance on the big stage whilst holding down other jobs and general global interest. Take out Phil Taylor, Barney and most guys like Waites, O Shea and Adams back in the day from the BDO given the conditions of the PDC would bump up their averages to the likes of Dudbridge, Wade, Lewis etc and be equally as successful.

I think Barney would have changed his darts any way given the way he buckled under the pressure and lost to his fellow countryman in the BDO a year earlier. Also, I doubt we will see a 110 average performance like we saw from Taylor in that final for a long time - it was basically off the scale

its an accepted fact now that the bdo boards are slightly more difficult.  look at waites,s averages in the grand slam compared to his lakeside averages.   also more bounce outs on the bdo boards

I think it's pretty much obvious that Taylor is the more accomplished artist, but as an all-round sportsman then it has to be Wolfie all day long.  He is an exceptionally popular character within the darts world and without, unlike Phil who has rubbed up many of his fellow pro's the wrong way.  Also, due to the fact that Taylor plies his trade on Sky with their modest audiences while Martin plays to millions every year then i think he is the first person 9/10 Brits would name when asked to name a dartsman.  Phil could walk down any street unnoticed whereas Adams can't go 6 yards.

So overall the stats don't lie....Taylor Is the be better player, but Adams is the face of darts.

I would have thought more people watch Sky's darts than the BDO. (A shame, but there we are).
In my shop I've taken NO bets on the BDO. There was loads of interest in the PDC.

As for the first person mentioned when asked to name a dartsman, I would think less than 1 in 100 would mention Adams first.
Unless your post was tongue-in-cheek, Phil could walk down any street unnoticed whereas Adams can't go 6 yards. is so naive and wrong I nearly didn't put this post up.

Taylor - Past nominee for SPOTY, Winner of BDO as well, Plies his trade on ITV as well as Sky, top of the tree for over 20 years, newsworthy, features on chat and panel shows.
Barney, Part, Bristow, and others from the past would all be miles more recognisable than Adams. Who other than in January doesn't even bother to play in other TV events, even if he is eligible.

And here I am debating the no-debatable.

[i]Unless your post was tongue-in-cheek[/i]

Maybe I'm not noticing the subtlety, tobe.


Or

Maybe it was serious.

Thanks for the laugh. Adams is a big fish in  big pond seen once a year. Taylor is an exceptional player 5-10% better than anyone. The only comparison to his domination is Bradman or the squash players who dominated fora decade or more. Three world championships against fifteen. Ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!L!

"Its an accepted fact now that the bdo boards are slightly more difficult.  look at waites,s averages in the grand slam compared to his lakeside averages.   also more bounce outs on the bdo boards"

It's not an "accepted fact" at all. And the BDO have changed their boards anyway. Waites played well at the GSOD (although he only hit a 92 average against Webster)- possibly because he was defending champion, possibly because against the likes of Taylor, Thornton and MVG he had to (not to mention the fact that their high averages can help the opponents averages on legs they don't play well in). Tony O'Shea averaged about the same as he's averaged this tournament. Infact, look at Taylor's averages at the PDC world Championship. He was struggling at 94 and 90 for the first half of the tournament before lifting it to above 100 and playing superbly in the final.

Aleksandr Karelin still stands tall as the most dominant figure in any sport

how many 9 darters has this karelin ever done, im guessing he was before my time as ive never heard of him

like as it has happened in every other sport, advancement in technology means higher averages, hence it is a lot easier to hit trebles cos of the how thin the darts are etc

A lot of nonsense on this thread

I cant believe the debate about more difficult boards/bigger trebles is still going. All it takes is someone to get the two boards and measure them and post the results, surely some dart fanatic has done this by now?

yeah but rod harrington was banned so he didnt post the results

it will be interesting to see what happens to scottys average if he turns proffessional.

Both masters and pro eclipse doubles and trebles are the same size. That includes the bullseye. Waites average would have to increase to stand toe to toe with the majority of pdc players in the floor events. Mentally, the pro players know a sub 90 average will see them lose the majority of matches.

the bdo is a far better watching spectacle ....................  it has me creased up every year watching it !!!

Nowt funny about it. These lads give their all as well as holding down a day job. BDO = Proper darts, proper players :)

its a good point. if barney had remained a postman i doubt hed have been able to get christmas off every year to play darts

I assume now Richie George is out, this pretty much ends the other debate of who is the best up and coming player, Van Gerwen or George

itfc- interesting topic. MVG  has been around longer so has achieved more at this stage but i seem to remember he didnt get anywhere near  a lakeside semi when in BDO. i will wait a year or two before committing to an opinion as richie has achieved alot in a short time but needs to show this season isnt a one off.  This could be thread to look back on in ten years,

Adams had 105 average at county today

Have we written off the great man too soon

MVG's was tearing up trees as a teenager. He's miles ahead of Richie George as things stand. Some players come to the fore early in their career and fizzle out. Others appear on the scene much later in life and still produce the goods. Hunger, determination and bottle is something you cant buy.

Yet more players in their 40's getting tour cards via this year's Q School system. Richie's lucky to have a sponsor, unlike so many players who are good enough but unable to get funded.

P.S. Top darts Wolfie! I was following Warwickshire v Devon on darts for windows.

P.P.S. MVG won the BDO World Wasters as a 16 year old, played in 1 bdo worlds then switched to pdc...etc....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_van_Gerwen