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"Too late to stop no-deal"
"Too late to stop no-deal"
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Replies: 259
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Pretty much yes, the main diff is you'd see a short term huge swing to Farage I guess. It would probably be a short term thing though given Farage simply isn't offering anything outside Brexit.
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That was @tobermory btw.
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I'm talking about remainers who think if Brexit is revoked they can just resume normal Cameron/Blair type politics as if the last 3 years never happened.
An MP was murdered before the vote even took place and everyone despised the killer as it was using violence when there was a democratic vote available. If the referendum is annuled then we won't have the 'if you want to change things then vote' argument anymore. |
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It's highly unlikely Brexit is just revoked in terms you put it though, that will only happen if the Brexiteers force a position where the is no option but to do that.
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It's more likely Brexit would be overturned via a GE or via a ref after a GE than that.
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Also in the bigger scheme if the point is do I think there will be a political price to pay for Brexit not being delivered then yes absolutely there will, but do I think it will be worth it, yes, as most the other options are even worse, and the only options that aren't are miles from the table atm (so think basically a Labour Brexit hypothetically might not be worse if you include the political consequences, not very easy to see how you'd get one though when most of their own party probably don't support it anymore and just want to remain).
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If Brexit is not delivered then nobody will ever respect another democratic vote or process again. In other words this opens the door to either a dictatorship or chaos, so do you still think that is worse? Let's not forget the situation we have had since been a member of the comm on market and later the EU was far from beneficial to the UK
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It just won't reach that point. For Brexit to be overturned it will have been overturned by the democratic institutions, that is in itself democracy. It's actually how our democratic system is meant to work, that we elect the individuals and then they make the decisions on things like this.
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No there was a clear vote and mandate that some mps are trying to overturn. Believe me if Brexit is not delivered then this country will decent into chaos and nobody will lift a finger to save the current political system and it's participants
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It just won't reach that point. For Brexit to be overturned it will have been overturned by the democratic institutions, that is in itself democracy. It's actually how our democratic system is meant to work, that we elect the individuals and then they make the decisions on things like this.
not much point in having a ref then |
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or a 2nd one
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I agree there shouldn't have been a ref, and it was a clear mistake as shown now by the troubles resolving it. Especially with no real idea what we were actually doing. All done for the Tories to win a handful of votes back from UKIP.
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i didn't say there "shouldn't have been a ref" The fact is there was one; & they should abide by it. Now if they want to ban all referendums in the future - that's fine by me
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Also "clear vote". Clearly not that clear when 3 years late we haven't worked out what Brexit means yet. The governing party can't even get it's own party behind a deal, and the Brexiteers wouldn't even vote for Brexit at the last vote. The obstruction all stems from the fact that it wasn't clear.
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I don't demand a people's vote.
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I would go along with one if that's the end game they come to.
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a croc. Yo'u can't change a decision just because it didn't go your way. And it means nothing if minds have changed etc etc. The only reason we are still in belongs to the previous administration. That's now been dismissed. The decision was made, & now it will be carried out
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Up until now any vote or an election has been respected and implemented, but if Brexit is not implemented then we the people will no longer need to accept any democratic voice again. So let us assume the libels win the next election I don't have to accept the decision or accept anything they try to introduce. So where does that leave us?
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We are still in this position because they can't find an agreeable way out, the new administration is unlikely to find a way out either without a GE giving them a majority. As the only way out by October 31st really is to bring back May's deal, con people as if it's something new and it pass. Even that's fraught with danger as it assumes the ERG will go along with it, the Labour rebels will all go along with it, and the the DUP won't just pull the plug on the government by doing so. Otherwise you will have to do something else to get out of this mess, which will mean going back to the people in some form, almost certainly a general election would be chosen over another referendum.
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And what will people do with that apparent new found power macarony, for most part absolutely nothing. A few rebels, the types you get at Tommy Robinson rallies attacking BBC cameras and so on will probs kick up a new fuss somewhere, but like I say we'd be better off if that lot were inside anyway.
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Brexit won't be overturned without some sort of democratic involvement anyway.
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if there was a real intention of taking us out of the EU it would have been done; all it was an exercise in damage limitation. The nutcase thought she could convince an anti Brexit Parliament to go along with her deal, she couldn't, it was that bad. 3 years wasted but that is not the fault of the voters who wanted to leave. There will be no flexi nutcase deal; we will leave with a new deal (doubtful) or without. All options are then open, the GE will be called, a majority - a decent one will be achieved. Jezza will be sent back to his garden; a female will take over the Labour Party, & the Lib anti Dems will fall back into obscurity. Nigel will get a gig with Bozo & i will back the winner of the 2020 Grand National. I think that covers most of it
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If people had voted for her deal we would have been out. The rest of that sounds complete fantasy. There won't be any achieving of a Conservative majority after delivering no deal Brexit, that will = Tories get wiped out and them ducking an election for as long as they can. It would also be a completely crazy plan to leave with no deal then snap call a general election, given there will be a lot of work in the aftermath, the idea you're then going to call a general election and get bogged down in that I imagine will be a complete non-starter.
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complete & utter balderdash; there will be no better time to call a GE; he doesn't have to call it for a couple of weeks later! Tories wiped out after achieving no-deal, are you bonkers? Ducking an election? Who are they scared of - Labour? don't make me pee my pants. Jeez i thought you had an ounce of sense. Just how wrong can you be about a lefty fantasist
as for that utter tripe you have posted in your 1st line - are you Theresa May???? JH Christ am i sick of hearing that crap! i tell you what; we will see in 3 months who is a "fantasist" this topic will get shunted up |
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The Luvvie mob not excepting votes ,unreal tbh , Have a look at jimmy
 2 votes her and her Mob can't accept Can you imagine if we Voted to remain , Leavers not accepting the Vote ,it would not have happened ,be all done and dusted . Yet we have to listen to these people banging on forever  Beyond belief tbh As for Krankee and the team  Incredible ... |
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If Boris goes for no deal to then call a GE after it I will start believing that Boris wants Corbyn as PM.
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there's plenty of lefties on here who talk sense, Case. The above just isn't one of them
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The idea that 'democratic institutions' can legitimately overturn Brexit and everyone will be fine with it is very fanciful. These very MPs promised to respect the result before it took place and then most of them then stood on an election platform saying that they accepted Britain was going to leave.
To have a vote on something of this magnitude and then just not implement the result would be unprecedented*. That the response will amount to a few football hooligans kicking BBC cameras is wishful thinking. * Possibly the 3rd Irish Home Rule bill being blocked by the House of Lords would be the best comparison. Not a happy one. |
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Anyway, on the main thread subject, Grieve responded to Cummings today....
"Mr Grieve told the BBC Mr Cummings was a "master of misinformation". He said that if Mr Johnson lost a no-confidence vote, MPs would have 14 days to form an alternative government. "[Mr Cummings] has a point, but he may also be missing the point," However, Catherine Haddon, from the Institute for Government think tank, said that while Mr Grieve's suggestion was possible, it would rely on Mr Johnson resigning as PM after losing a no-confidence vote - something he is not legally bound to do. "The problem there is it requires the sitting prime minister to resign, and because it is untested territory we don't know how that might work," she said. "If you go back over history, certainly when governments have lost confidence that's been the presumption - but the other presumption has been that if they wanted to go to the people they could. "He could say: 'No, I'm staying as prime minister and we're having a general election.'" |
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If Boris pushes through no deal and then calls an election..
1. He mops up the Brexit Party vote. 2. He gets the Tory remainers because Brexit is over. Why would largely richer Tory remainers vote for allowing Corbyn in? 3. Floating voters vote Tory because they cannot stomach Corbyn. Result landslide for Tories. If he fails to push through no deal.. 1. Brexit Party vote surges and splits the leave vote. 2. Lib dem and Labour votes rise. 3. End up with a Lab/Lab/SNP coalition that reverses Brexit and then destroys the economy. He simply has to force through no deal to save the country from a radical Marxist ruler. |
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reverses Brexit and then destroys the economy.
40 years of brexit wrecking economy vs just 5 years of corbyn in power before he eventually gets kicked out by the voters. |
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Well tbf you don't actually need to be Grieve to know Cummings is all about misinformation. I mean he was found in contempt of parliament in Feb basically for lying, so not exactly giving a lot of credence to what he says.
In the case of calling a GE you would have to request an extension to do this in reality, as having no deal just go through against parliament's will during a GE campaign would be at best political suicide and at worst political sabotage. |
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The reason Tories will likely lose massively after no deal is who is going to support it once the consequences are felt. There is pretty much nobody who thinks we will see anything but negatives for many years, you will never see out those many years. Economy crashes = game up for whoever is in government as it's always been throughout history everywhere.
I mean there are many sort of subsidiary points too. Things like #1 the Brexiteer vote will be less motivated to the polls after, #2 Even a lot of Brexiteers will convince themselves (and tbf with good justification) that they didn't vote for this. And #3 the number of no dealers is way outnumbered with a demographic going against it all the time. If you start a lightning rod effect to those who don't normally vote to vote then you're in big trouble. The funny thing to me is the Corbyn government it seems the majority of Brexiteers fear is a pretty likely consequence of a no deal Brexit, unless of course he's gone by then. |
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Absolutely right n88
It would appear many Little Engerlanders don't know much about their history or Constitution or the Parliament they wish to become Sovereign again! I have always felt the Brexit issue would lead to some sort of Constitutional Crisis and it for me has been the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about. I have felt that Corbyn should have pushed the no confidence vote straight away. Time is short. Who fully knows the Consequences of the fixed Parliament Act. I am guessing both sides think they have the law on their side. Thew way I see it to prevent Brexit the Remainers will have to form a Government and either SEEK to delay Brexit, which, may not be possible in which case the only option they will have is to revoke Article 50. Should this ashley happen and they revoke Article 50 then we are in for a sheite storm. I am pretty sure the Queen can ask whoever she wishes to form a Government. It is not up to BJ to resign as Prime Minister. What if he pulls up the drawbridge at No 10? Not a problem tbh, no need to send in the troops. Leave him there looking stupid! Cummings must think he has a plan. I think Conservative MP's will have to support JC as PM or even somebody else who could unite The Remain camp. The New PM and Government would be likely to call a General Election and go to the Country. I think a second Referendun would be a disaster for the Country and Democracy. There must be a people's vote, however, and that has to be in the form of a General Election. If the Remain Parties form a majority then they have the right to Revoke Article 50. |
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n88uk, you are assuming that if we leave without a deal that things will go south very quickly and that isnt necessarily the case. the day after we leave is a friday which is quieter at the ports, exporters fearing chaos may not even attempt to send goods abroad until the situation is clear. the volume of goods even trying to be moved may be way down. there will have been lots of stockpiling happening from those who rely on (non perishable) imports too. i can see mark francois at dover screaming 'it was all project fear' if there are anything but huge tailbacks. i am not saying this will happen just that it is a possibility.
meanwhile both the export and import sectors are being adversely affected by the sudden change in our trading arrangements but economic data is lagging and the full effects wont be known for six to twelve months. hence, bozo has a window to go to the country and very possibly win a general election on the basis that he has 'got brexit done' and things arent too different. the fact that we will likely end up in years if not a decade of more of negotiations to rebuild formal trading relationships wont be in the public's minds at all. |
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You would actually have to hold the forte so to speak for quite a long time though.
So you'd leave with no deal on October 31st. Now you aren't going to literally call an election the next day as you will have a lot to actually do in the immediate aftermath and there would also be some kind of trepidation to see what the initial reaction is. When you look at the earliest a general election could really be then is late January meaning you've got to hold the forte for at least 3 months as you can hardly have a GE over Christmas and the new year. I actually imagine the timing makes things all the worse, Christmas = an increase in deliveries. Do I think you'd be able to do that? No, not really. And of course that's without getting into that I don't see how you survive in this parliament trying for no deal on October 31st anyway (and it would it make all the more likely to be a disaster if you were rendered powerless by whatever parliament is doing in response). |