The Demise of Democracy in the United Kingdom

From the outset the rule should have been if that parliament couldn't agree on any deals put forward then we leave with no deal.
All this put to the people stuff is a simple case of bad losers trying to thwart democracy.

JRM and BOZO proper showed their true colours today and now JRM is changing his mind again wtf

Gove already proven what he is in previous leadership contest so i wud be very surprised if any of these 3 get even near to be new leaders of their party - Hancock might be the one if ya fancy a punt

They took no deal off the table and then voted against all other options all of them need sacking and assets frozen with immediate effect, then deported for acts of treason.

They are the biggest set of treacherous bas****s ever, all of them have shown their true clours here and that should be the end of em.

We leave with no deal if they cant strike a deal, they cant agree a deal, take no deal off the table, and then vote against all other options. Kicking the can anybody?

Get them the f*** out

I hope you're right with those 3.
Lost respect for Gove when he stabbed Boris in the back but then lost respect for Boris and JRM over their actions in resect of Brexit.
Mind you quite a few Tories were shown up as rats with their Brexit shenanigans. Grieve and Soubry being the worst.
What a time for politics. All this and the Tories are 8 points ahead of Labour in the polls.

Oh yes another one of those msm polls, aka?

I wouldnt follow those nowadays to be honest

Not vouching for its accuracy Sonta but surely Labour should be streets ahead of the Tories.

i've asked this question many times of MPs - both parties; & have never received a decent answer. "Did the electorate know that their vote was not final; even though they were all told it was?" I wonder how many actually knew that it was Parliament who would decide if they liked it or not?

Hancock is a window licker; & i say that with the utmost respect to window lickers.
He couldn't govern a covern

WE Vote MPs in , Brexit was Voted for , from Day 1 every MP should have been putting forward their Ideas regarding Brexit ,
Leavers and Remainers ,All I can see is a load of indecision  and Spanner throwing That has been going on for over 2 years '
I can see no Resolution at all , Scandalous ..

No doubt any referendum on anything that does not have a clear Majority would be Disputed anyway , Going forward to a General
Election any recount that happens Must surely be open To a  Re vote  ?? AS a couple of Hundred people may have not been able to Vote for what ever reason ..

these "polls" got us to where we are today  shirley.........


Only reason they called ref in 1st place was cos remoaners thought they were past post

Only reason May called an early election was cos she thought she was past the post

Look what happened in both cases.......

Now we have BOZO and JRM  saying they will now back what they previously said was a terrible deal...... and only for their own agendas above whats best for this country

Sez it all about politicians really and Labour and SNP are no better by the way

Mr Shearer, and only for their own agendas above whats best for this country

very true; but unfortunately,there is very few that put country & people first

Bap none of em can govern - i hated Maggie wiv a passion but she has been only one in my lifetime that has really given a fook (and even then she was right up there wiv all the bent fookers) .........and i never ever thought i wud ever type those words about someone i despised as a young man - sad days these are for our country

a 2nd ref would only work if it was clear that what was voted for did not need Parliamentary approval. Something that i've seen mentioned, but by no means rigid

100%  Spot on Smirn , I would have voted Leave I did not Because my Other half wanted to Remain so to Avoid a Pointless walk to the Polling station for us Both , we agreed to Abstain ...

I don't actually Give a Flying anymore

What we do both agree on is that Democracy as we know it is Finnished

thats been proven Bap when mps take no notice of what their consituency voted for and vote against their wishes anyway - shudnt be allowed really and no surprise to see Labour resignations again tonight when people were not allowed to vote as they wished - all as bad as each other im afraid

can't disagree; Thatcher would muller these melons. I fear for the political system, in fact the system is broken for good now imo. It is going to take some very smart minds & an awful lot of goodwill to get some sort of brevity back in the House

nanny - i voted leave mainly just to p1ss off "the establishment" but also because i thought it wud help the likes of fisheries industry get back to a level playing field - sadly during our withdrawal (potential)agreement they still sold out in this area so i can see why people are calling for 2nd referendum now they have more clues as to what they are voting for.......

Funny thing is though if they went down that route again i firmly believe it will be a bigger victory for leave 2nd time around

Would a petition to government to rule tha “NONE OF THE ABOVE” be included on the ballot paper get enough signatories?
I’ve spoilt my paper more times than i’ve Put a cross.

Democracy can now go one of two ways.

Tempting though it is to be cynical and say that it is dead the other option is that now the current brand of MP has been exposed as nothing more than inept, careerist, venal - oh hell just open the Thesaurus at 'hopeless' and keep reading - there is the opportunity for new parties to emerge.

TIGgers, The Brexit Party a resurgence of the SDP. Yes there may also be traction for extremist parties but that's what you get when one is, effectively, told that your vote does not count.

With the First past The Post system and years of ingrained 'brand awareness' / bovine acceptance of the major parties, with their financial support, nationwide party apparatus and logistics it's a hell of an ask I know for any new force to emerge. I think the best one can hope for is the dilution of support for Conservative and Labour, who have proven utterly inept in articulating any kind of a coherent vision for our country

Quite right, Hanx.
If it hadn’t been for Brexit all this would not have come to a head.
The yo-yo politics of lab then con being in for a while might have continued but for the Scot Nats.
Even awful con parties would win elections or so I thought until now.

So will we have a GE when may’s successor is ensconced?
Most will demand it but it will be a mess, surely?
Both major parties are split.
Chaos for years to come?

Its a stitch up just like Ireland and Denmark,there is no escape,accept it chaps

The 2016 Referendum says we are 'Leaving'. Hence, the only vote must be: Mrs May's Deal or No Deal; whichever obtains the more votes - the winner. It's so simple!

The state of some of these Planks in the House is beyond Belief , ALL SIDES ,these are the People running the show ,we Voted them in , Shocking behaviour by some , we must be the Political laughing stock of the World

Pr1cks in Labour etc have been going on and on and about how the deal wasn't passed because May wouldn't engage with Labour and other parties and it's all her fault.

Then when the entire house is given a smorgasbord of options to chose from in a free *****ng vote, they can't decide on a single option anyway.

Jesus wept. They are still banging on about a general election though. Still full of it.

most of Labour do not want a GE, JC as they know their ass will be kicked all the way back to Wiltshire

Some journalist the other day said these votes would be a win/win for May as the shower of ****s (my word not theirs :)) in the parliament wouldn't decide on anything anyway and it would make May look good again and help revive her deal. Wish I could remember who it was as I want them to pick my lottery numbers.

I noticed the remoaner scum at the BBC yesterday were really ramping up the "population has changed its mind" bollox, as a final sprint after 3 years of saying Brexit is a disaster voted for by stupid racists and actively campaigning against it.

you should have watched Sky if you think that's bad. I contemplated going back to work

Mar 28, 2019 -- 11:53AM, impossible123 wrote:

The 2016 Referendum says we are 'Leaving'. Hence, the only vote must be: Mrs May's Deal or No Deal; whichever obtains the more votes - the winner. It's so simple!

If anyone truly believes its Mays deal vs No deal haven't been watching though

We ain't getting no deal, and think yourselves lucky if it ends up being Mays deal (personally we might as well stay and at least keep the human rights)

They are holding this country hostage and the sooner people realise it and do something about it the better

May should have never been PM, but she's survived all through this which tells you one thing

They want a crisis and they are getting one

Its not the demise of democracy. Its the continued stupidity of the public thinking the politicians work for them.

Corbyn will undoubtedly "do a Kinnock" in so much as he is un-electable and will (against all the odds) prevent the Labour party from winning an election for so long as he is leader.
That leaves us in the hands of people like JRM. People that name their children Sixtus Dominic Boniface Christopher, Alfred Wulfric Leyson Pius, Thomas Wentworth Somerset Dunstan, Peter Theodore Alphege, Anselm Charles Fitzwilliam, etc. Truly a man of the people.

I cannot imagine his business dealings/tax affairs would stand up to enough scrutiny to ever see him as leader or PM but stranger thinks have happened across the pond. Obviously other self-intersted slimes are also available.

Not sure about the demise of democracy (thread title) - you still have options and you can still vote.

The fact that the available options are equally abhorrent to sane people is a bit disappointing. Until they recognise the message that a spoiled ballot paper represents - I am sure it will just come down to who has the best slogan.

smirnoff2therescue • March 28, 2019 12:23 AM GMT
JRM and BOZO proper showed their true colours today and now JRM is changing his mind again wtf

Maybe , just maybe , Mr Rees-Mogg is pinning all his hopes on Theresa May being replaced by a Brexiteer . Once we've left the withdrawal agreement can be ripped up

Reynard; there are 'Brexiteers' & there are 'brixiteers' i hope the 1000 or so members know who/what they are voting for come the contest

as i have repeated many times, & apologise for doing so again - there are NO Brexiteers in the current Cabinet

I did say maybe ................

i'm not having a pop at you Reynard; i'm just sick to the back teeth of the media calling certain members of the Cabinet 'Brexiteers' when they are nothing of the sort.

if they, or anyone else want to name a true Brexiteer; then they should look at Steve Baker & his band of merry men & women

This whole Brexit thing is playing out like the ultimate 'Divide & Conquer' .

If any politician outs themselves as supporting brexit the media just start calling them "far right" anyway..

Reynard

Exactly

They are really ramping it up as well, not sure its working though as they seem desperate in trying to goad one side or the other

Tommy Robinson is trying it on now as well, you'd have to be stupid to fall for it, but it only takes a small minority on each side to fall for it and the likes of Tommy Robinson get paid

the Tory members face a massive decision in a few weeks/months, JC they can vote for a brixiteer currently in the Cabinet, & go through the same sh ite that the nutcae has put us through for 3 years; or they can do what they say they want, & vote a 'true' Brexiteerr to take us into the trade deals

To summarise - a nutter that is close to the current nutter but not quite so nuts, or a nuttier nutter that has caused the demise of the current nutter?

Reasonable thread spoiled by Just Checking spilling bile.

If the guys on the this week team are on the ball tonight, they'll show the vote results at the end to "no limits" by two unlimited on the end credits tonight.

Maybe get brillo and up Portillo up for another drunk uncle at a wedding dance .

the only "nutter" to cause the demise of the present "nutter" is the original "nutter" Theresa Mary May

Strong and Stable - I guess she has at least now trumped Running through the Fields of Wheat as the naughtiest thing she has done.

she will be remembered for her "statements" Mr Management, a lot longer than for her political abiliities

Constantly repeated three word slogans slogans are the new replacement for political abilities and policies.

Welcome to the internet savvy 21st Century.

It's only to be expected - people believed a bloke that says he doesn't want a nanny state - but employs a nanny!

So MV3 she's planning

If she loses get ready for an unlimited extension and we can do this forever and ever amen

"may gets back into the ring"

On a stretcher? she's refusing to accept the knock out, and wants to be knocked out again, whereby she refuses to accept that knock out and she comes out in a coffin the next time

The Undertaker would be proud

Some people just do not have a clue as to what democracy is. We are so fortunate in this country to be able to vote and change Government if we so wish. If you are unhappy with the two main political parties you will get a chance soon enough to remove their snouts from the trough!

Use you vote, don't give it away!

WD - i wasn't advocating spoiling your/my ballot (although it does take all of my very limited will-power to resist writing "none of this shower of coonts" on the paper.

My point was that due to where i have lived I have never been able to vote for (or against) a Prime Minister, I have never even voted to select a party leader. My likelihood of coming out on the winning side when I vote for a local MP is entirely dependant on my geographical location (except in a handful of marginals) - We have a democracy that we have become accustomed to calling a democracy.

Maybe the nations we frown upon will embrace it and in future offer a free vote on the incumbent versus his more evil distant cousin - they then have a choice, does that make it a democracy? We laugh at or condemn that kind of democracy and/or **** elections but we are missing the irony imo. The bullet or the poison? I guess at least if I write "none of theses coonts" I might live to tell the tale.

The crux of the matter is the UK is 'Leaving' The EU ie the result of the 2016 Referendum; the UK can 'Leave' with the deal negotiated/on the table ie Mrs May's deal or 'Leave' without a deal - these are the only 2 choices/options MPs should have been asked to vote on. And the one receiving the more votes eg 'Leave' the UK will 'Leave' on that.

Is that so difficult to understand MPs?

But they took no deal off the table, the mps did not us

They are scum

"back deal and ill quit" should be the biggest red flag in history

Why is she offering to quit to get it through?

So it's "sh!t deal or no deal?" - I don't think that was the question in 2016 to be fair.

impossible123 - Exactly correct . The decision to leave the EU was decided by referendum .
To leave: a) without a deal or b) with a deal are the only options available .

Put the blame where it lies and it is not the tory party, if the tories had been left to govern without interference from corbyn and labour and the liberals and snp
we would be leaving the EU tomorrow and democracy would have prevailed

What is quite clear is that the only party that can be trusted to do the right thing is the Tory party , never again can we trust the other ****

I can never trust either , ever again (not that I have ever trusted either)

that's unfair, the tories respected the British people , the other ****s didnt

So fairly sh1tty deal or really sh1tty deal?

I really don't remember anybody up on a podium advocating that or that being one of the options in 2016.

Which one relates best to Take Back Control iyo? - both involve giving away control imo.

Mays deal takes us out of the EU, the sm, the cu and stops freedom of movement
stop whining about a **** deal

It was leave or remain and leave won

Yet they have moved the goal posts, people should be down outside those gates politely telling them to get the f*** out

Leave won yet we are being sold a totally pointless set of guidelines with Mays "deal" and no deal has been removed

Its an absolute joke

lfc's arrival signals my departure. keep it simple. Have fun. Play nice.

how uninteresting , bye

Nothing personal - Tennis.

passive aggressive as well as arrogant , that's not nice either management, run along now

still here

good boy

I agree

Hi lfc

damn i missed him

TM, the 2016 Referendum asks whether to 'Leave' or 'Stay' in The EU - nothing about how and/or what deal the UK 'Leave'. It was just either 'Leave' or Stay'. And, the winner (regardless of margin) was 'Leave'.

I do not care how the UK 'Leave' - I just want to 'Leave' 1st; post this the UK can negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world. If necessary, the UK could negotiate further for an absolute/clean break from The EU even it it means a final total-break token payment of £27, a £1 to each existing member EU state.

When you say - I don't care how we leave, I just want to leave - from that point onward you lose me. Given what has happened so far you will also have to forgive me for thinking you have over simplified what will happen next if/after we leave.

Really?

I understand the probable initial pain post Brexit, but in the long run I believe the UK is better off out than in. I certainly do not fall for the doom and gloom MP merchants whose qualification to comment on world affairs - politically and economically - does not warrant serious attention as most of them are career politicians and self-serving sorts who'd sell their grannies for pittance in return for votes at the opportune and strategic moments.

The UK did more than ok prior to The EU (bureaucratic/trading cartel). And now with the enlarged membership of minnow states whose economic progress and development are being funded by the UK - one of the 5 regular main net contributors of EU - for more years I can remember; too many new members riding on too few net contributors in return for very little, and (possibly) self-serving interests and stiff trade competitors in the near future when their economies flourished, courtesy of EU funding.

I'm all for remaining "friendly" neighbours with The EU, but foregoing one's sovereignty is a price too high to pay to be a member; reclaiming one's laws and policies for one's own destiny is a must, I firmly believe.

The EU are led by unelected past-it (faceless to me) politicians with (limited) experience, and an unnecessary large army of bureaucrats; a cesspit of non-productivity and red-tape; guzzler of humongous funds.

I relate The EU to an organisation like FIFA and where cronyism is the currency.

When you say - I don't care how we leave, I just want to leave - from that point onward you lose me. Given what has happened so far you will also have to forgive me for thinking you have over simplified what will happen next if/after we leave.

Along with ‘Well, what is your plan?’ the idea that Leavers are over-simplifying things are the two main points of attack by Remainers.

There is a serious point here.

The supra-nationalists are technocratic, they don't do the vision thing. For them the vision has been done: it is the European Project leading the world to one-world government by administrators in collaboration with experts from industry and academia. They are now the majority in Westminster. Original thinking makes them very uncomfortable.

This is at the heart of Brexit: collaborating and competing nations of richly diverse character versus a uniform level playing field in which no nation, people or territory is allowed any advantage over another and all adhere to the same rules, values and ideas and all are minutely controlled centrally by technocrats for whom innovation is sinful deviation

If you fall into the latter camp, it all does become relatively simple.

A body which simultaneously claims to have kept the peace in Europe for 50 years, validate the nation state claims of Scotland (for example) whilst guaranteeing workers rights but still being the driving force behind globalisation – something this magnificent can surely produce a mechanism for one of its constituents to exercise its democratic will to leave the party and pursue its own way in the world?

Fair enough, so the guys that want to take us back in time to the good old days are the visionaries? It does make sense now.
I do love those steam trains to be fair.

It suppose it also explains why Walter the Softy is dressed like a manikin from the British museum.

Back in time??

Really?

What’s wrong with small? We've done big, empire, global power etc. Maybe small really will be beautiful?

As for the EU, I've said many times what I see is a hijack of a great idea - to create a trading and cooperation area between free independent nations. A hijack by a resurgent Germany and a wannabe imperial France backed by globalised corporations and international finance calling the shots in Europe.

It's another attempt to build a European empire with German economic backing (they are the only nation really doing well out of the project, ask the Italians, the Greeks, the Spanish etc.)

The Empire dreamers aren't in Britain anymore (done that, been there, got the white-privilege guilt-trip) they are the EU with their plans for European armies, United States of Europe internal markets, advantageous to those who give up sovereignty and join their empire and punishing to those who refuse. A European land based empire by any other name with the imperial capital in Brussels where the empires laws are made and its ruling classes can run things with little or dissent from the serfs they are creating. Reducing the commodity of labour and skill to its lowest worth by creating a vast pool of cheap mobile workers willing to travel and leave their homes and compete with each other for work in a race to the bottom whilst the few get richer and richer.

Taking back control is more than taking back control of a border.

We can choose what we get after Brexit if we stop arguing with each other about whether or not we should give up and be part of the European empire or remain a small free and independent nation and get on with working to create a Britain we'd actually all like to be part of.

Brexit might be nostalgia for some Management, but for others like me it’s the chance to actually begin again.

I am completely ambivalent hanx - so many very good things about it, yet so many very bad things too. Anyone that wasn't conflicted didn't understand the complexity of it. Yet everyone that campaigned (and still argues) for either side sees it in black and white and talks about it like it's great versus disaster, right versus wrong (this applies to both sides).

So whenever I hear anybody arguing with venom and every fibre in their body (for either side) - I know they either have a self serving agenda or are stupid.

Any person who doesn’t know how important it is that Britain should leave the EU after the British people voted to leave s a very stupid and untrustworthy individual , no ones fooled really

And I would say the same thing regardless of how I voted or the outcome
That’s the difference

The Management is ambivalent so anyone who isn't (like him) ambilavlent is either self serving or stupid. Wow.

WD - i wasn't advocating spoiling your/my ballot (although it does take all of my very limited will-power to resist writing "none of this shower of coonts" on the paper.


Management,

I think it is ok to spoil your ballot and vote none of the coonts above! You have made your vote count imho.

As stated earlier so many out there and on here do not have a clue as to how democracy works. Voting is a precious right fought for with blood and bones. To toss it away is a terrible thing to do and if you think you were powerless before you will be a slave in the future.

We have a huge fight on to stop our Masters taking more and more out of the pot for themselves and leaving us with scraps.

We are many, they are few!

Our lives should not revolve around the treadmill that makes some rich and privileged and almost beyond the law. They can bribe their inbred offspring into the great Universities and yet say there isn't enough money to pay for everyone? Horse sheite! There is plenty of money!

We are arguing over in or out and we should be discussing building homes, sending our children to University with incuring debt and rebuilding a free for all Health Service that is the pride of our Country.

Toss away your vote at your and more importnatly your childrens peril!

Finally on the demise of democracy.

People seem to think because the MP's have messed this up democracy has been lost. What a load of old sheite!

The Referendum was Remain or Leave!

There was a result with 17.4 million voting to leave. Ok 52/48 very close.

We are a Parliamentary Democracy not a Direct Vote system. We don't have a referendum on a referendum.

OK it is not ashley Parliament that has stuffed this up but the Prime Minister. She had a majority and called an election and since then she has been between a rock and a hard place. She has messed up the negotiations not Parliament.

Yes Labour are taking the advantage but that is their job. They are not the Government!

That idiot May has given the EU what they want then tried to negotiate what we want doh!

The deal leaves us out of the Single Market, which, is the main advantage of being in the EU. It leaves us in the Customs Union but without veto and and without Representation and also no doubt with having to pay our fair Share to the EU budget!

Even worse while we remain in a Customs Union we cannot make any trade deals so what is the point? Did they have a gun to put to our heads? No!

Democracy is not dead, we are brain dead in not seeing what was going on or doing anything about it.

The deal is terrible and I hope Parliament rejects it.

We may have a General Election soon. The two main parties took 80% of the vote last time, why?

People need to do something with their votes next time.

JC - when dining out you ordered the British beef (like a true patriot) on the recommendation of a friend that told you the beef was excellent - you trusted him and he would not here any talk of the Lamb or the Pork.

The beef arrives and is absolutely rancid - you can still eat if you want or try to save face by just asking for a smaller portion of the rancid beef.

But any sane person is gonna consider the Lamb or Pork at this point.

Even your friend Walter the Softy has reconsidered and completely changed his mind.

I would have been happy with any of the options on the menu that were edible or a small slice of each.

That sounds more like tripe than anything else

lfc - oooh you are ofal!

That made me laugh management :)

well smile anyway so that’s not bad : )