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Brexit (if 2nd referendum)
Brexit (if 2nd referendum)
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From the media I can easily detect and conclude the superiority complex exuding from the statements from interviews made by the EU rep - they were always dictating to us - and I do not respect these EU reps for a lack of gravitas and experience from their previous offices and economic significance of the countries they were from. Where were they when Britain were asked for colossal contributions year in, year out? Britain supported The Eu in times of crisis and the reciprocals had been few and far between - we had to fight for them too!
I agree and understand the standard of our politicians and their commitment have deteriorated (just look at the composition of the front benches of both parties) nevertheless, to treat the representatives of the 2nd most successful economic country in The EU by a couple of 3rd rate political individuals smack of disrespect and disdain to Britain. Where was Mrs Merkel? I respect Mrs Merkel - she's been there in good and difficult times; Tusk and Juncker are no-body in The EU, sorry but true; the combine economic influence of Luxembourg and Poland do not match that of Britain, full-stop! Organ grinder please, but not political "moneys". |
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It’s a myth that if we had a second referendum and voted to remain that we could just go back to the way things were.
For a start we would lose our EU rebate and opt-out clauses and secondly, we would be treated with even more disdain then usual by the powers that be in the EU. Thirdly, we would be seen as a laughing stock around the world. |
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Porcupine, I was a student of Politics many, many moons ago, but despite following the daily news keenly never wanting to be more involved as I can tend to get obsessed with it which I want to avoid.
The rest of the politicians in The EU are keen to give Britain a hard time to sustain their belief and existence of The EU , but I'm fairly confident their constituents do not share their views, and given a chance of a referendum to exit The EU there could be a surprise install for these un-elected narcissistic EU bureaucrats. All of a sudden the momentum for a deal has picked up immeasurably recently compare to just 3 months prior. Finally, better late than never The EU have accepted a British exit, come what may. |
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Britain is not for turning!
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I think we already are, Gin
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And another thing:
Last year, the OBR brought out a report forecasting future UK contributions to the EU. By 2022, they forecast that the gross weekly contribution figure would amount to £427 Million (and the EU have already said that we would lose the rebate so that would be the real amount). Stick that on your bus............................ |
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I voted to leave but im not sure its going to happen now , but if there was a 2nd vote i still think i would vote to leave , but the whole thing has become a farce and a shambles
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It was always the plan to make it a farce and a shambles. May has been wilfully useless and should have been kicked out long ago.
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The Farage comments are intriguing. He seems to be hoping it all falls apart and the resulting anger is channelled into some
new populist party with i dare say him as founder & leader. Maybe I'm wrong, he wouldn't be that disingenuous would he??? |
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the eu POLITICIANS have never liked us - we have always been the black sheep
we have, or did have, a tiny portion of the vote yet we made the 2nd largest contribution having no more say than poland?? we are the awkward squad and they tell us the eu can be reformed I wonder when that would happened - it has been corrupt for over 40 years - why would france and germany want to change their privileged positions the corrupt regime is run by germany with their money and ours what on earth do we get out of it |
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Given that the "Brexiteers" have been noticeable by their absence and lack of vigour; whoever voted to leave must be scratching their chins and wondering what happened to the fight. No one has moved a flabby muscle against May, or anyone else. We kept hearing about "revolts" and 48 votes; but not s jot has happened. No protests, no marches of any significance, no placards outside The Commons, no kicking off on news slots. All a very damp squib. Was this all just smoke and mirrors?
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How about their hijacking of the agenda re 'money first then deal'?
It wasn't hijacking at all. Both sides agreed on the process How about their being the notion of a 'divorce bill' in the first place (you don't negotiate a bill - you pay it!) rather than it being a membership fee we are cancelling. Again, both sides agreed. The size of the fee was complex as it was based on budgets of future projects and the UK's share of that How about YOU giving the rest of us an itemised breakdown of how the £39 bn 'bill' was arrived at - I'm not talking about the craven acceptance by Theresa the Appeaser' I'm talking about how this figure was arrived at in the first place? Surely that's our government's responsibility to share or not share the information. Fact is both sides agreed and shook hands on the figure. I've already outlined in great depth why the notion of the Irish Border question has been concocted by the EU (and once again, accepted without question by Theresa and her team of non-negotiators) rather than being thrown right back at them as it should have been Again, this was agreed a year ago. We agreed on the backstop. We have since reneged. The EU's or Ireland's stance has not changed a jot since then. How about your and other Remainers refusal to accept that there is no precedent for a country and economy the size of the UK leaving a trading block and therefore requiring a whole new 'win-win' groupthink by all parties rather than falling back on artificial 'red lines' (NB IMO it was the assumption that we would be negotiating with a group who put the people, rather than the Project they represent first, that led many to think that negotiating a mutually beneficial Brexit would be very straightforward and easy). Not really sure what you're getting at here to be honest. Are you blaming remainers or the EU here? I wonder what the employees and board of directors at, BMW or French Wine Manufacturers are thinking of the way the EU has conducted negotiations? I bet they think the EU's approach has been vindictive and based largely on 'pour discourager les autres' You can easily search and find out. They're fully in support as it happens. But as it happens the notion of not encouraging others and the fact that our relationship and trading arrangement by very definition couldn't possibly be as good as a member state was known from the start. That's not bullying or punishment just simple facts that some cake have/eaters refused to acknowledge. |
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PorcupineorPineapple
05 Nov 18 15:54 Joined: 03 Dec 15 | Topic/replies: 6,361 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog How about their hijacking of the agenda re 'money first then deal'? It wasn't hijacking at all. Both sides agreed on the process ^ No Mrs May who is a remainer agreed to it. No leader who wanted to leave the EU agreed to it. That is your first mistake. May sees Brexit as a damage limitation exercise. Her goal appears to be to mess it up as much as possible by dithering so that the voters get fed up with it. |
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Ah well if all you've got to offer is 'both sides agreed on the process' then we can stop right there, since we are not on the same page whatsoever.
The process is demonstrably not fit for purpose, for a true Brexit. Simply repeating the phatic phrase 'both sides agreed on it' rather neatly (from your perspective) sidesteps the issue that our negotiators have done anything but negotiate from the start of the process. How can it be with the deep state so thoroughly entrenched in running the show and as Baphomet has pointed out, the leading lights of the Leave Campaign supine and content to be 'sideline quarterbacks', rather than articulating a vision of that we can be outside the dead hand of the EU. I agree that our trading relations with Europe cannot be as good as if we are a member state. This 'have your cake and eat it' is so much hot air. The question that is never articulated is what we could be with a fair trading arrangement with the EU (Canada with as many plusses as you like) with an ability to negotiate trade agreements, nimbly and with entrepreneurial flair, with other free nations? |
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"Surely that's our government's responsibility to share or not share the information".
I'l save you the bother since I genuinely enjoy your thoughts on all this and I'd hate to drive you to suicide! Your embarkation point is " Commons briefing paper 8039 30.07.2018." The key point is far less complicated. May has agreed that if we don't agree with whatever they want us to pay the ECJ will force us to pay it anyway. And, of course we will have no representative on the ECJ bench. You have to remember we are dealing with the EU (Last annual loss to corruption estimated @ 900bn Euros, source Rand EU corruption loss - report commissioned by the EU Parliament). They wouldn't know where to begin an honest accounting exercise. The EU is riddled with con tricks, which makes May so vulnerable re the Divorce Bill. She hopes to hide behind " A lot of it depends on outcomes", but would have to admit in reality she doesn't have the foggiest to the nearest Bn or two, how much it would cost. Then, the icing on the EU cake is that she will let its political court decide how much we owe |
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IT - can't help but notice a tone of desperation in your writing that it's all been sabotaged by "remainers" now. I can start a new thread where you can list actual evidence of our government sabotaging this if you like. I suspect though it's another brexity fantasy to pretend this wasn't just a massive sh!tshow from the get go.
Hanx - fair enough we can stop. You carry on with your deep state conspiracy theories. As for leading lights being sidelined, she promoted Johnson to Foreign Sec, gave Davis the job of negotiating it, brought Gove back into Cabinet...other than asking Nige to replace the Number 10 cat I'd say she hardly closed the jobs off. Regarding trading arrangements, you're now speaking with the benefit of hindsight. We've wasted so much time on the idea of us dictating terms, of having deals in place across the world by now, of us directly talking to EU member states. Fact is, our government hasn't had a clue and just spun you along. As it's slowly realised none of these things could be done they needed someone for the public to blame instead, hence where we are now. If we want to negotiate with other nations we can, but by invoking Article 50 we automatically remove ourselves from existing deals and need to start again. Not punishment, simple facts. Then we need to negotiate. Maybe you want to look at Australia. They're frankly not interested. More worried about damaging their relationship with the EU, and happy to hang on and see how desperate we get. Look at the US; they're desperate for us to untangle ourselves as the EU's standards are too high and they want to sell us their glow in the dark meat. Also, we walk out of one bureaucracy, straight into another. WTO rules state if we want to offer better terms to someone then we must offer them to the entire world. The process is demonstrably not fit for purpose, for a true Brexit. - Agree with this though. Invoking Article 50 so soon, under pressure from Farage et al was the first great mistake. By starting the clock we weakened our position massively. For a proper brexit, where we remain intact at the end of it we need to do thorough planning and make sure we leave when we're actually ready. Buggered that one right up though. |
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re:16.20
This is getting Roswell level now. |
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no one likes us we dont care... come on you Lions
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I voted yes and I would still vote yes out of principle. If there was a second referendum and the decision was reversed I'd have to take action. As I'm not longer fit enough to be a violent man I've thought of attacking my local Citroen and BMW dealerships pouring nitromous on the cars..........only trouble with that plan European regulations have taken all the good stuff out so it dosen't work anymore
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it's the thought that counts dan.
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No you misunderstand!
Johnson and Gove (Davis to a lesser extent, since he was making a decent fist of things IMO, until May went behind his back - yes I know, 'deep state conspiracy theory' no matter that it's true) and that twit Rees-Mogg. What have those three DONE, as opposed to pontificated about? I'm especially sick of JRM - I think he's just a media prat, happy to appear in his silly double-breasted suit, playing the old school bo11ocks. Farage is just the Remainer's bogeyman - no real power but a handy lightning rod for Remainer ire. I disagree re invoking Article 50. Imagine this scenario. After the referendum result Cameron does NOT resign. Listening to the people on Brexit, he immediately invokes Article 50, tells the Civil Service to prepare for Brexit under WTO terms (therefor giving business some degree of certainty it apparently needs), says 'there is no divorce bill to pay', guaranteed the rights of EU citizens in the UK and dared the EU to do different and then offered to sit down with the EU, to discuss a better option for all, with NO 'red lines' from either side - but with the tactic of being able to approach individual EU member's leaders over the heads of Barnier, Junker, Tusk et al if the EU did not engage in mutuially beneficial dialogue. Then he could have appointed a cross party Brexit Cabinet and really gone for it. Imagine him at Davos articulating an open, creative, welcoming Britain, desperate to secure the very best of global talent, to produce the next Netflix, Google, Facebook (all American companies - I wonder why they are masters of the business universe whilst all Europe has come up with is Spotify?), Imagine him setting out the UK’s stall and urging global business to lobby the EU to engage constructively with these proposals, selling Brexit Britain as a great place to do business, setting out the opportunities that there will be once this country is outside the EU, instead of reaching into her back catalogue like May did, and scolded the technology companies. Of course, this would take vision and cojones, but I guarantee a) we would be in a very different (and IMO better) place re Brexit than we are now b) we would be on the frot-foot regarding negotiastion with the EU and c) Cameron would have a politcal legacy worth something instead of, as of last week, coming off as an urbane, essentially useless dilettante casting around for 'one last big job'. |
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it's the thought that counts dan.
Cheers PP |
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I voted to Leave and would definitely do so again.
Even firmer on that now after the appalling way the europrats have treated us. Unfortunately however I think we Leavers are about to be well & truly stuffed |
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I wonder what proportion of "foreigners" residing in The UK (not EU nationals) voted yes to "Brexit"? Could be significant having spoken to friends from that category.
Just get on with it; prepare for it, and it will be ok in the future. It's only The EU (a sick puppy) we are leaving, and not some up-and-coming merit warranted establishment. |
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PorcupineorPineapple
05 Nov 18 16:29 Joined: 03 Dec 15 | Topic/replies: 6,365 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog IT - can't help but notice a tone of desperation in your writing that it's all been sabotaged by "remainers" now. I can start a new thread where you can list actual evidence of our government sabotaging this if you like. ^ I gave you the biggest example which was secretly planning the 'Chequers' deal cutting the Department for Exiting the European Union and the Cabinet completely out of its development. She then put it to the Cabinet with a simple sign or resign option. How can May justify having the Department for Exiting the European Union if remain civil servants are doing their own thing in parallel behind closed doors answerable only to her? It brings back memories of Blair and Campbell working on the Iraq war stuff behind the scenes. |
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If the perception is that the EU has treated us badly; then there is really only one person to blame, and that's the leader of this country. The buck stops at the top. What all leavers should remember is the way they feel, they have been treated and take it to the ballot box next time. Wouldn't it be fitting if all cabinet ministers lost their constituencies. If May is not leader by that time you can be sure one of this Government will become leader.
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Rico dixi andyl 11vk would s
 till vote leave |
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Yes and Yes.
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Pwesonally if another vote i would not bother to vote again as it is against democracy
and would never vote again in any election apart from the next one where a vote for Tommy Robinson out of spite or whichever leave candidate for the hell of it. That would be the problem because leavers would abandon party lines and vote for the leave mp or Ukip. |
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Baphornet
05 Nov 18 18:33 Joined: 02 Nov 18 | Topic/replies: 53 | Blogger: Baphornet's blog If the perception is that the EU has treated us badly; then there is really only one person to blame, and that's the leader of this country. The buck stops at the top. What all leavers should remember is the way they feel, they have been treated and take it to the ballot box next time. Wouldn't it be fitting if all cabinet ministers lost their constituencies. If May is not leader by that time you can be sure one of this Government will become leader. ^ The other option is a Marxist who wants to stay in the Customs Union and whose party has not ruled out a 2nd Ref. |
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Conservatives who voted leave could just not vote, they don't have to vote Labour; thus hitting the Cabinet where it hurts. It still doesn't mean that Labour would get elected.
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Also May wants to stay in the Customs Union as well. She could well me Marxist as well
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Corbin with his lightweight front bench colleagues running the country? They are not even fit to run a Ftse company; it's akin to President Trump being the supremo of the USA for life. How revolting a thought? He'll definitely not have my vote despite I'm a voter of the party in the past.
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You have to laugh at the leavers complaining about how the EU are treating us. Are you really that stupid? Letting the public vote on a matter of such importance was clearly a ridiculous idea.
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northanlite
05 Nov 18 15:37 Joined: 07 Jun 04 | Topic/replies: 12,195 | Blogger: northanlite's blog The Farage comments are intriguing. He seems to be hoping it all falls apart and the resulting anger is channelled into some new populist party with i dare say him as founder & leader. Maybe I'm wrong, he wouldn't be that disingenuous would he?? Nailed it. |
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You have to laugh at the leavers complaining about how the EU are treating us. Are you really that stupid? Letting the public vote on a matter of such importance was clearly a ridiculous idea.
Totally agree with this. If Brexit is financially disastrous, then the Government were stupid to give the public a chance to vote in favour, which could lead to the dismantling of our NHS. Note, I said IF here.... |
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"Letting the public vote on a matter of such importance was clearly a ridiculous idea"
Really? Is that not what democracy is all about? The country belongs to the people, and the people make the country. As such, the people must be allowed a say which route their country embarks on eg to "remain" or to "leave"; the people chose to leave...by a small majority nevertheless, it was a majority. If the decision results in an immediate (perceived) uncertain future by some political pundits sobeit; Britain have survived two wars and overcome many economic hurdles with aplomb. It could be painful initially but the future is encouraging because I believe The EU is a non-productive and non-efficient cartel which does not encourage and reward hard work, but stifles innovation and entrepreneurship with its endless red tape and bureaucracy. |
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if remain were to be included i wouldn't bother voting as we voted on this in 2016, if it were a vote on whether to accept the deal or to leave without a deal i would vote on this. On June the 24th 2016 i was really happy that the result of the referendum went the way that i voted but deep down knew we would never leave.
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I believe, and I sincerely hope we are leaving for good, just the terms to be finalised. If The Labour Party renege on the outcome of the 2016 Referendum they will never have my vote again. Personally, leaving The EU is more important than allegiance to a political party.
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