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Why is French taught in schools, and not Latin?

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Replies: 124
By:
Foinavon
When: 05 Sep 18 15:54
Survival in a way. The reason for writing on this thread was to show that it is possible to learn a language fluently as an adult, I know from personal experience that it is true.
I also know that English people who live in English enclaves, in Spain for example, have difficulty in picking up the language as they are mainly communicating in English and local traders learn to do the same, motivated by profit of course.
By:
1965 Mustang Fastback
When: 05 Sep 18 16:02
There's no Peter Pedantic saying things romantic
In Latin, Greek or Spic
By:
kenny mann
When: 05 Sep 18 17:07
Our French teacher, Mr Corfield, certainly knew how to get most of his class of 30 plus 11 year olds interested in the subject.

He turned many of the lessons ( sadly not all) into a sport.

French Cricket.

Rules.

Class divided into 2, left and right side of the classroom.

A book of French prose handed to all the pupils.

1st batsman of side A reads from the book, and for every word pronounced correctly, a run is scored.

If any the fielding side (B) thinks a word has been pronounced incorrectly, he can appeal, and if the appeal is successful, a wicket is down. If not, 5 runs added to the score.

Kept us enthralled for the whole lesson.
By:
Knight Commander
When: 05 Sep 18 17:15
We were lucky enough to have a French exchange teacher when I was about 14. She was quite young (probably not even 25) and used to wear short floaty type dresses Love

She was the subject of many wild teenage fantasies and unlike today's snowflakes none of us would have felt traumatised or scarred for life!!
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 05 Sep 18 19:41
I'd only just turned 20 when I spent a year as an exchange teacher in a German school. It was a bit unnerving at first, having to assert your authority over a class of 18-year-old Abiturienten. I just had to keep reminding myself: 'Who won the bloody War anyway?'

I can't say it was a great help for making me more fluent in German, but that was on account of me being hard-of-hearing. It was no different from English really: one-on-one conversations, where I could lipread, were feasible, but sitting in the staffroom or the skittle alley or the pub, I had no idea what was going on. I still absorbed enough to come back to England speaking German way better than any other students in my university year though, because they had all spent their year as exchange students in German universities. Consequently they spent all their time with other English exchange students.

Luckily none of the teachers realized they were employing a half-deaf teacher, or I could have been sacked. The pupils soon cottoned on though, when they noticed I couldn't hear the bell for the end of lessons. It became a game to see how early they could get a lesson to end, by claiming the bell had rung and I hadn't heard it.
By:
Just Checking
When: 05 Sep 18 20:03
If you're going to learn a language might as well learn a useful one.

Short of time travel you're unlikely to have much success chatting up a girl in Latin on holiday LaughBlush

I mean the hot babe in "Plebs" is German speaking with a French accent. No latin there, and that's as authentic a historical program as you'll get!
By:
twonky
When: 05 Sep 18 20:18
Falco tinniculous....kestrel.......kes 1966
Charcharadon summat...great white shark...jaws 1975
Veni vidi vici.....just now...spaffed on chebs

That's the only Latin you need to know
By:
akabula
When: 05 Sep 18 20:32
But without that classical education, you'll just spend your life dismissing so much stuff as "too complicated" or "beyond my pay-grade" or, worst of all, "something to leave to the experts - I'll take their word for it".

Can you supply a few examples screaming?
By:
Dr Crippen
When: 05 Sep 18 20:47
But if you've had a classical education, how would you know what it's like for those that haven't?
By:
akabula
When: 05 Sep 18 21:05
Not sure where I'd struggle given I have the world at my fingertips.
By:
Just Checking
When: 05 Sep 18 21:09
Everyone can have the world at their fingertips, I often do when I've had 12 pints of lager and I'm crawling home Wink
By:
akabula
When: 05 Sep 18 21:13
I'm above that sort of thing! Silly
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 05 Sep 18 21:50
Dr Crippen: From working in a couple of offices back in the 1980s. I was translating patents and medical texts, and the staff who had modern language degrees, but no O levels in Latin or Greek from school, simply gave up. (In fact, they mostly got promoted to office managers, on the basis that you couldn't go promoting people who actually had enough knowledge to wade through 200 pages of organic chemistry or reams of LD50 tests on Wistar rats.)

Akabula: Here's the (poorly) translated abstract of a study done a few years ago on the effects of artificial sweeteners. I've chosen it, because it was what I happened to be reading before I came back to this thread:

Modified High-Density Lipoproteins by Artificial Sweetener, Aspartame, and Saccharin, Showed Loss of Anti-atherosclerotic Activity and Toxicity in Zebrafish

First Online: 21 August 2014

Abstract

Safety concerns have been raised regarding the association of chronic consumption of artificial sweeteners (ASs) with metabolic disorders, especially in the heart and brain. There has been no information on the in vivo physiological effects of AS consumption in lipoprotein metabolism. High-dosage treatment (final 25, 50, and 100 mM) with AS (aspartame, acesulfame K, and saccharin) to human high-density lipoprotein (HDL) induced loss of antioxidant ability along with elevated atherogenic effects. Aspartame-treated HDL3 (final 100 mM) almost all disappeared due to putative proteolytic degradation. Aspartame- and saccharin-treated HDL3 showed more enhanced cholesteryl ester transfer activity, while their antioxidant ability was disappeared. Microinjection of the modified HDL3 exacerbated the inflammatory death in zebrafish embryos in the presence of oxLDL. These results show that AS treatment impaired the beneficial functions of HDL, resulting in loss of antioxidant and anti-atherogenic activities. These results suggest that aspartame and saccharin could be toxic to the human circulation system as well as embryonic development via impairment of lipoprotein function.


The terms I've highlighted, because they're the sort which I would normally skip over:

lipoproteins: if you know that λῐ́πος is a noun meaning 'fat' in Ancient Greek, then you can guess that we're dealing with proteins which transport fat through the bloodstream here (as well as guessing that in another context liposuction involves sucking away fat).

in vivo: pure Latin, meaning a test carried out within a living thing (as opposed to 'in vitro' (literally 'in glass', i.e. in a test tube)).

anti-atherosclerotic:  σκληρός means 'hard' in Greek, so we immediately know we're dealing with something with an anti-hardening action; an atheroma happens to be a mass of diseased material in an artery, and also happens to be derived from the Greek, but I didn't know that. However, at least with a bit of Greek we know what sclerosis is, so we can look the rest of the term up and not just glaze over it, which is my whole point.

putative: putare means to think or to guess in Latin, so we know the authors are supposing that the effect in question is taking place, without necessarily being certain. This is important - this might be something you'd want to investigate further, but, to spot that, it helps to be sure what 'putative' means, rather than just gloss over the word.

proteolytic - difficult one this, but if you're familiar with processes such as electrolysis, where compounds are broken down using electrolytes, then you could guess that something's being broken down here, and, as it happens, it's Greek again -  λύσις, meaning something being loosened, but I didn't know that. After all that, proteolysis turns out to means proteins being broken up.

Maybe it makes no difference that I can just about decipher this text, thanks to Latin and Greek - after all, anyone who's seen the the effects on John McCririck of drinking too much  Diet Coke is going to avoid this stuff in any case. But it's nice to be able to understand precisely why it might be making you feel lousy.
By:
akabula
When: 05 Sep 18 22:01
And I would need to know this.
That aside I googled in vivo and got an explanation, I assume I can do the same for all highlighted terms.
If I saw something in Russian, or Chinese or Japanese I wouldn't have a clue so why is Latin so special?
As I said to the vast majority of people Latin is of no use.
If you have any examples to prove otherwise then please list. I'd suggest the one you showed is of little relevance to most of humanity.
By:
akabula
When: 05 Sep 18 22:05
An everyday example would be where something in a written document is scored out with Stet written above.
"What does that mean" the first time encountered. Getting the explanation one remembers and moves on. No need to spend years studying.
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 05 Sep 18 22:31
Judging by the volume of diet soft drinks which actually are drunk, I think it would be of use to most of humanity if they were able to look at a text like this, and get the gist without having to look up things in Google. And then there's the problem of having to memorize those terms for when you meet them again. It's a lot easier to do that if you understand what the various parts of the word mean in their original language.

But it's the initial business of having to look up things which appear utterly strange and foreign which puts people off. Familiarity with Latin and Greek helps overcome that.

"Why is Latin so special?" you ask. Because so much technical and legal jargon in English derives from it. It's not a question of whether that's a good or bad thing. It's just a fact, which unfortunately means the door's shut on most of the population these days.
By:
akabula
When: 05 Sep 18 22:41
Looking at a can of sugar free irn bru.
Few words I don't know the meaning of but could look up.
But so what? Unless we allow and accept the 'experts' to do their job we'd spend our whole lives analysing everything we encounter.
By:
Capt__F
When: 05 Sep 18 22:56
" World Cup "
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 05 Sep 18 22:58
Yes, but my point is that if you have a knowledge of Latin and Greek you don't necessarily have to slog through an analysis, or key every other word into Google, in order to understand subjects on which you're not an expert.
By:
akabula
When: 05 Sep 18 23:19
But knowing the meaning of a word is only the start surely.
You would then have to look up it affects the body etc if you wanted to go that far.
Like I say Latin is a dead language and only used as a form of shorthand nowadays.
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 05 Sep 18 23:28
Half the English language is derived from Latin, and it's the half which comprises nearly all the unfamiliar jargon used to impress and obfuscate.
By:
dunlaying
When: 06 Sep 18 10:03
There are many books , plays , poems and films to be enjoyed in French .
I have very little Latin so perhaps somebody could translate this for me?
"Extinctor draconis labrator Anubis"
I know it refers to St George killing a dragon but is it a play on words?
By:
Foinavon
When: 06 Sep 18 10:29
Anubis is an Egyptian god with a head of a jackal.
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 06 Sep 18 10:39
Extinctor draconis latrator Anubis (latrator rather than labrator) means 'The killer of the dragon, the snarling Anubis'.

The killer of the dragon is obviously St George, but what he has to do with the dog of the Egyptian underworld is beyond me.

The word play is simply that the first two words rhyme with the second two. Maybe it's just someone trying to sound clever. What's the context?
By:
dunlaying
When: 06 Sep 18 10:41
It comes from Proust and your translation fits the scene . Thank you Screaming .
By:
dunlaying
When: 06 Sep 18 10:50
I should have gone to Specsavers . I read latrator as labrator which is why I could not find a translation of the word .Laugh
By:
kenny mann
When: 06 Sep 18 10:56
FOEDUS UEFA gentes - quae est infernum, est?
By:
screaming from beneaththewaves
When: 06 Sep 18 14:49
The only connection I can think of between the two phrases ('killer of the dragon' and 'the snarler Anubis') is that latrator Anubis is mentioned by the poet Vergil in the Aeneid, and Vergil also composed another book of poetry, about rural life, called the Georgics. (The name George comes from the the Greek word pronounced Georgos, meaning a peasant, or someone who works the soil - 'ge', or Gaia.)

But a quick Google shows nobody else making this connection, so you have a character in Proust trying to show off how clever they are with a couplet no other character will understand, and it appears in a book whose readers don't get it either. But that's Proust for you.

By the way, about thirty years ago David Smalley, in his weekly round-up of events in the Southern betting rings in the Sporting Chronicle Handicap Book, mentioned a punter he'd spotted in the car park before racing who was working his way through Proust in the original French. That wasn't you, by any chance? Because by my calculations you'd just about be reaching the end by now.
By:
dunlaying
When: 06 Sep 18 15:26
No the reference makes perfect sense now . Proust is hard work but well worth the effort .
It only takes me 14 months to read the original these days .
The Sporting Chronicle Handicap Book was a wonderful publication . Those were the days!
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 16:47
rememberance of times past
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 16:59
I think it’s good that we have Latin because it’s taught in good schools

maybe the two things are related
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 17:03
They teach dance in some schools now , and drums

probably pole dancing I don’t know
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 17:06
Many they think Latin is elitist now ,

That’s only because bad schools don’t teach it , what does that tell you
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 17:11
How can we learn to understand our fellow human beings if some speak Latin and some do not
By:
Knight Commander
When: 06 Sep 18 17:12
Get the ones who do to pretend they don't
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 17:15
I think it’s better to have Latin in schools even if most people have no use for it

or even remember a word
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 17:16
That’s the way of most things anyway and you  have only to look at the difference Latin makes to a school
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 17:25
We had to teach it because we had the British Empire
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 17:25
And English of course , Latin was too difficult for the natives
By:
lfc1971
When: 06 Sep 18 17:26
All these things are connected in some way I’m sure
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