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Interesting comments from Jed Davison on another thread suggesting Mandela entered prison a violent terrorist and emerged transformed twenty five years later. People of my age have only really known him as something of a celebrated peace keeper. Done a bit of research and was shocked by his past. Personally, I think the things he did and advocated were unforgivable no matter what he did later.
What do you think?
Interesting comments from Jed Davison on another thread suggesting Mandela entered prison a violent terrorist and emerged transformed twenty five years later. People of my age have only really known him as something of a celebrated peace keeper. Done a bit of research and was shocked by his past. Personally, I think the things he did and advocated were unforgivable no matter what he did later.
What do you think?
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Press, media, establishment or whatever you want to call them can persuade the masses that a villain is a hero, or a hero is a villain
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It's not exactly uncommon for the heroes of the International Socialist Brigade to have their questionable past airbrushed from history.
Mandela was a killer, and whatever he may have done after he left prison, he died a killer. |
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Villain.
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there's no such thing as heroes and villains. watch the film with audie murphy red badge of courage.
the bible says we all fall short. but people want to believe they are a hero, a good guy. somedays your passive, others good, others bad, or a villain in the right circumstances. Christopher Columbus is a hero in the childrens books, a utter villain in recent years through revelations he systematically killed thousands of natives. most if asked would say he was a hero. |
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nonsense.
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S. Africa didn't exist before the British, that's all you need to know.
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Before Columbus? the tears of the innocent natives and children fell down the beautiful mountainside like rainfall.
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Accusations of tyranny during governorship
Following his first voyage, Columbus was appointed Viceroy and Governor of the Indies under the terms of the Capitulations of Santa Fe. In practice, this primarily entailed the administration of the colonies in the island of Hispaniola, whose capital was established in Santo Domingo. By the end of his third voyage, Columbus was physically and mentally exhausted, his body wracked by arthritis and his eyes by ophthalmia. In October 1499, he sent two ships to Spain, asking the Court of Spain to appoint a royal commissioner to help him govern. By this time, accusations of tyranny and incompetence on the part of Columbus had also reached the Court. Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand responded by removing Columbus from power and replacing him with Francisco de Bobadilla, a member of the Order of Calatrava. Bobadilla, who ruled as governor from 1500 until his death in a storm in 1502, had also been tasked by the Court with investigating the accusations of brutality made against Columbus. Arriving in Santo Domingo while Columbus was away in the explorations of his third voyage, Bobadilla was immediately met with complaints about all three Columbus brothers: Christopher, Bartolomeo, and Diego. A recently discovered report by Bobadilla alleges that Columbus regularly used torture and mutilation to govern Hispaniola. The 48-page report, found in 2006 in the state archive in the Spanish city of Valladolid, contains testimonies from 23 people, including both enemies and supporters of Columbus, about the treatment of colonial subjects by Columbus and his brothers during his seven-year rule.[85] According to the report, Columbus once punished a man found guilty of stealing corn by having his ears and nose cut off and then selling him into slavery. Testimony recorded in the report claims that Columbus congratulated his brother Bartolomeo on "defending the family" when the latter ordered a woman paraded naked through the streets and then had her tongue cut out for suggesting that Columbus was of lowly birth.[85] The document also describes how Columbus put down native unrest and revolt; he first ordered a brutal crackdown in which many natives were killed and then paraded their dismembered bodies through the streets in an attempt to discourage further rebellion.[86] "Columbus's government was characterised by a form of tyranny," Consuelo Varela, a Spanish historian who has seen the document, told journalists.[85] "Even those who loved him [Columbus] had to admit the atrocities that had taken place."[85] Because of their gross mismanagement of governance, Columbus and his brothers were arrested and imprisoned upon their return to Spain from the third voyage. They lingered in jail for six weeks before busy King Ferdinand ordered their release. Not long after, the king and queen summoned the Columbus brothers to the Alhambra palace in Granada. In Granada, the royal couple heard the brothers' pleas; restored their freedom and wealth; and, after much persuasion, agreed to fund Columbus's fourth voyage. But the door was firmly shut on Columbus's role as governor. Henceforth Nicolás de Ovando y Cáceres was to be the new governor of the West Indies. |
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Yes we did the same in London, that's how it was. But the `culture` that was overthrown was an evil and savage one.
Its end was a blessing to everyone on that continent and in the world. |
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Now, would you like to take a look at Africa?
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You have to remember :-
Everything past & present white = BAD Everything past & present non white = GOOD |
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Somewhere in between hero and villain for me. It is hard to put yourself in someone's position from the past. How would chit chatters have dealt with living in the apertheid hell?
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A terrorist can quickly become a freedom fighter if he's on the winning side.
Mandela serving time in prison came out of prison on the winning side. |
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How would chit chatters have dealt with living in the apertheid hell?
Well being white, quite well I should imagine after listening to people who lived there and came back. South Africa is hell for whites now. |
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It might be the way forward, look at it this way. It's no accident that there are so many different types of people.
That didn't happen by chance , why did it happen ? I don't know . But there is still apartheid in S. Africa , areas where the white population live together and have their own security and will not do much as hire a black gardener, Why? because they fear being murdered. |
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Mandela is a hero for his people. Will always be. Of course he'll have made enemies and peobably done bad things to some so he'll be a villain to them. What matters is from which side you view him.
Osama bin Laden was our dear hero when he fought communism. Islamic Jihad broke Russia's back in Afghanistan and we loved it. The Taliban were the heroes of the muslim and the western world. Today they are not. We loved their attrocities then but hate them now. A few decades down the road, if the whites invade SA and suppress the black people, I can bet you wont even be allowed to display Mandela's poster in public. The powerful of the times decide who's good and who's bad. |
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What we should be concerned about isn't the fact Mandela was a terrorist and murderer, I have always known this, but the media and powers that be, painting him as a modern day saint for so many years. At various times I have googled Mandela's trial and details of his crimes and the only place that had any information was the ANC's website, and that information was taken down 7 or 8 years ago. In this as in many other situations the media doesn't tell us the truth, and is just pushing it's agenda.
We can idolize terrorists in far away places that are no threat to us, but it is a different matter when they are killing people in our back yard. |
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What a phucking ridiculous question! Without a doubt, he is one of the greatest heroes of our lifetimes. To suggest otherwise shows an abject lack of knowledge and understanding.
By the way, `Invictus` is one of the best sporting films ever made, telling the story of how he got the Rugby World Cup to be held in South Africa and, more importantly, what that meant and achieved for his people and his country. |
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Possibly villain!
At least that is the proposition a friend put to me it made me think. Why didn't he take control of the Gold and Diamond Mines from the Real terrorists? He should have done that and buried the owners in the mine! If he was a terrorist for fighting the Apartheid system then what did that make the people who invented and used Apartheid for their own selfish ends? |
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People have the right to live seperate lives, this has been the way of mankind throughout history and brings progress and peace.
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Terrorist with blood on his hands, however could you blame him given the regime ! However you feel about him as a man it must take immense courage to take on the state and to give up 25 years of the only life you have. Where in my opinion he does deserve a great amount of credit is that he did not come out of prison full of hate and looking for revenge, I don't think I would of been so gracious! Also implementing his reconciliation program at the time ensured there was not a backlash against the White population. Sadley I don't think it's the case today but can you blame the indigenous population. Again if I was them I don't think I'd want to put the past behind me which is a shame as both races if they pulled together could really make South Africa one of the greatest countries on the continent.
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The only credit due here is to the South African judicial system, which did not put him to death for all the deaths he had brought about.
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What a phucking ridiculous question! Without a doubt, he is one of the greatest heroes of our lifetimes. To suggest otherwise shows an abject lack of knowledge and understanding.
Possibly the stupidest statement I've ever read on the betfair forum |
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Read his speech at his trial. It sounds an awful lot like the justifications jihadists make for attacks like the Manchester bombing.
To his credit, he could have become another Mugabe and didn't. Although his successors are heading down that road. |
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It is mind-boggling, when innocent people are being killed all over the world in the name of ideology and religion, that someone like Mandela is still revered as if he were some kind of Saint.
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what about george washington, michael collins, simon bolivar
oliver cromwell, david ben-gurion and numerous others? |
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The S. African people voted themselves out of existence, big mistake.
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What about them donny?
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We will do the same thing in Britain and Europe.
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heroes or villains jed?
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To hand over power to Mandela and the ANC was madness.
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It was against all the fundamental principles of democracy.
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the one man one vote type of democracy
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Democracy has little or nothing to do with numbers, it is about freedom.
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There should have been a partition of the country, if necessary.
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Those who wanted to live in a multicultural state could do so.
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They didn't hand over power lfc, the ANC won power at the ballot box in 1994.
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But there would be no going back once the individual had made that choice.
They would be separate countries. |
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TBH donny, I don't have strong views about any of those people, I suspect because I never had to sit through them being lauded worldwide as heroes when they had the blood of innocents on their hands.
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