Chit Chat
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
Or both?
Interesting comments from Jed Davison on another thread suggesting Mandela entered prison a violent terrorist and emerged transformed twenty five years later. People of my age have only really known him as something of a celebrated peace keeper. Done a bit of research and was shocked by his past. Personally, I think the things he did and advocated were unforgivable no matter what he did later.
What do you think?
Interesting comments from Jed Davison on another thread suggesting Mandela entered prison a violent terrorist and emerged transformed twenty five years later. People of my age have only really known him as something of a celebrated peace keeper. Done a bit of research and was shocked by his past. Personally, I think the things he did and advocated were unforgivable no matter what he did later.
What do you think?
Show More
Somewhere in between hero and villain for me. It is hard to put yourself in someone's position from the past. How would chit chatters have dealt with living in the apertheid hell?
A terrorist can quickly become a freedom fighter if he's on the winning side.
Mandela serving time in prison came out of prison on the winning side.
Mandela serving time in prison came out of prison on the winning side.
How would chit chatters have dealt with living in the apertheid hell?
Well being white, quite well I should imagine after listening to people who lived there and came back.
South Africa is hell for whites now.
Well being white, quite well I should imagine after listening to people who lived there and came back.
South Africa is hell for whites now.
It might be the way forward, look at it this way. It's no accident that there are so many different types of people.
That didn't happen by chance , why did it happen ?
I don't know . But there is still apartheid in S. Africa , areas where the white population live together and have their own security and will not do much as hire a black gardener,
Why? because they fear being murdered.
That didn't happen by chance , why did it happen ?
I don't know . But there is still apartheid in S. Africa , areas where the white population live together and have their own security and will not do much as hire a black gardener,
Why? because they fear being murdered.
Mandela is a hero for his people. Will always be. Of course he'll have made enemies and peobably done bad things to some so he'll be a villain to them. What matters is from which side you view him.
Osama bin Laden was our dear hero when he fought communism. Islamic Jihad broke Russia's back in Afghanistan and we loved it. The Taliban were the heroes of the muslim and the western world. Today they are not. We loved their attrocities then but hate them now. A few decades down the road, if the whites invade SA and suppress the black people, I can bet you wont even be allowed to display Mandela's poster in public. The powerful of the times decide who's good and who's bad.
Osama bin Laden was our dear hero when he fought communism. Islamic Jihad broke Russia's back in Afghanistan and we loved it. The Taliban were the heroes of the muslim and the western world. Today they are not. We loved their attrocities then but hate them now. A few decades down the road, if the whites invade SA and suppress the black people, I can bet you wont even be allowed to display Mandela's poster in public. The powerful of the times decide who's good and who's bad.
What we should be concerned about isn't the fact Mandela was a terrorist and murderer, I have always known this, but the media and powers that be, painting him as a modern day saint for so many years. At various times I have googled Mandela's trial and details of his crimes and the only place that had any information was the ANC's website, and that information was taken down 7 or 8 years ago. In this as in many other situations the media doesn't tell us the truth, and is just pushing it's agenda.
We can idolize terrorists in far away places that are no threat to us, but it is a different matter when they are killing people in our back yard.
We can idolize terrorists in far away places that are no threat to us, but it is a different matter when they are killing people in our back yard.
What a phucking ridiculous question! Without a doubt, he is one of the greatest heroes of our lifetimes. To suggest otherwise shows an abject lack of knowledge and understanding.
By the way, `Invictus` is one of the best sporting films ever made, telling the story of how he got the Rugby World Cup to be held in South Africa and, more importantly, what that meant and achieved for his people and his country.
By the way, `Invictus` is one of the best sporting films ever made, telling the story of how he got the Rugby World Cup to be held in South Africa and, more importantly, what that meant and achieved for his people and his country.
Possibly villain!
At least that is the proposition a friend put to me it made me think. Why didn't he take control of the Gold and Diamond Mines from the Real terrorists? He should have done that and buried the owners in the mine!
If he was a terrorist for fighting the Apartheid system then what did that make the people who invented and used Apartheid for their own selfish ends?
At least that is the proposition a friend put to me it made me think. Why didn't he take control of the Gold and Diamond Mines from the Real terrorists? He should have done that and buried the owners in the mine!
If he was a terrorist for fighting the Apartheid system then what did that make the people who invented and used Apartheid for their own selfish ends?
People have the right to live seperate lives, this has been the way of mankind throughout history and brings progress and peace.
Terrorist with blood on his hands, however could you blame him given the regime ! However you feel about him as a man it must take immense courage to take on the state and to give up 25 years of the only life you have. Where in my opinion he does deserve a great amount of credit is that he did not come out of prison full of hate and looking for revenge, I don't think I would of been so gracious! Also implementing his reconciliation program at the time ensured there was not a backlash against the White population. Sadley I don't think it's the case today but can you blame the indigenous population. Again if I was them I don't think I'd want to put the past behind me which is a shame as both races if they pulled together could really make South Africa one of the greatest countries on the continent.
The only credit due here is to the South African judicial system, which did not put him to death for all the deaths he had brought about.
What a phucking ridiculous question! Without a doubt, he is one of the greatest heroes of our lifetimes. To suggest otherwise shows an abject lack of knowledge and understanding.
Possibly the stupidest statement I've ever read on the betfair forum
Possibly the stupidest statement I've ever read on the betfair forum
Read his speech at his trial. It sounds an awful lot like the justifications jihadists make for attacks like the Manchester bombing.
To his credit, he could have become another Mugabe and didn't. Although his successors are heading down that road.
To his credit, he could have become another Mugabe and didn't. Although his successors are heading down that road.
It is mind-boggling, when innocent people are being killed all over the world in the name of ideology and religion, that someone like Mandela is still revered as if he were some kind of Saint.
what about george washington, michael collins, simon bolivar
oliver cromwell, david ben-gurion and numerous others?
oliver cromwell, david ben-gurion and numerous others?
The S. African people voted themselves out of existence, big mistake.
It was against all the fundamental principles of democracy.
Democracy has little or nothing to do with numbers, it is about freedom.
There should have been a partition of the country, if necessary.
Those who wanted to live in a multicultural state could do so.
They didn't hand over power lfc, the ANC won power at the ballot box in 1994.
But there would be no going back once the individual had made that choice.
They would be separate countries.
They would be separate countries.
TBH donny, I don't have strong views about any of those people, I suspect because I never had to sit through them being lauded worldwide as heroes when they had the blood of innocents on their hands.
maybe we could have a brexit partion lfc ?
would that be acceptable to farage, and who could deny that?
would that be acceptable to farage, and who could deny that?
That`s a vote, totally meaningless if you are within the 40% who voted against,
Divide the country after the vote, it should not be a secret ballot, it would be a named ballot. And then you decide your country by whichever way you vote.
Divide the country after the vote, it should not be a secret ballot, it would be a named ballot. And then you decide your country by whichever way you vote.
If every country in the world becomes the same that will not be a good thing.
Many people were against the White ruling party because they where the minority, however out of the fifty plus countries that make up the continent of Africa the vast majority were ruled by minorty governments be it black minority's. No one seemed to care or protest about that 
jed.davison
04 Jul 17 10:27
It is mind-boggling, when innocent people are being killed all over the world in the name of ideology and religion, that someone like Mandela is still revered as if he were some kind of Saint.
I think he is revered as some kind of saint because of the number of lives he probably saved with his courage, foresight and leadership after he was released from prison.
Of course we don't murder people over here. Our security forces were never involved in the collusion and murder of British Citizens. Our Politicians were never involved in collusion to murder British citizens were they?
04 Jul 17 10:27
It is mind-boggling, when innocent people are being killed all over the world in the name of ideology and religion, that someone like Mandela is still revered as if he were some kind of Saint.
I think he is revered as some kind of saint because of the number of lives he probably saved with his courage, foresight and leadership after he was released from prison.
Of course we don't murder people over here. Our security forces were never involved in the collusion and murder of British Citizens. Our Politicians were never involved in collusion to murder British citizens were they?
Of course they were, the conduct of all the people you mention - I presume you mean in Northern Ireland chiefly, or at least among other places - was utterly shameful.
Without going into the utter shambles over which he presided when he took power, as I said on the other thread, 27 years' incarceration would help one reflect on one's own shameful conduct and do something to redress the balance upon one's release.
Without going into the utter shambles over which he presided when he took power, as I said on the other thread, 27 years' incarceration would help one reflect on one's own shameful conduct and do something to redress the balance upon one's release.
what about george washington, michael collins, simon bolivar
oliver cromwell, david ben-gurion and numerous others?
oliver cromwell, david ben-gurion and numerous others?
Anyone who is a member of a terrorist organisation such as the IRA, involved in a campaign of bombing and murder against Britain and British people is in danger of being shot by the British army.
That's how it is .
That's how it is .
That's the second time you've asked me that question today donny, and I did reply above - perhaps it got lost in among all lfc's posts.
Anyone else mentioned by donny, from Collins to Ben Gurian is in the same category .
even Washington , the British people are fair and quite impartial in their ways.
I think the white people in South Africa should go down on bended knee in praise and thanks to Saint Mandela.
The rest maybe should consider why he didn't appropriate all the mineral wealth of the country from the Terrorists for the good of all South Africans!
The rest maybe should consider why he didn't appropriate all the mineral wealth of the country from the Terrorists for the good of all South Africans!
Because the country didn't become a battle field with a slaughter of the innocents.
I am not saying South Africa isn't a great country with great people and possibilities. It is sad to see what path it is going down now but lest we forget jed 30 years ago we could not expect such a trouble free path to one man one vote. Shirley you can see that.
I am not saying South Africa isn't a great country with great people and possibilities. It is sad to see what path it is going down now but lest we forget jed 30 years ago we could not expect such a trouble free path to one man one vote. Shirley you can see that.
had mandela not had to wait all those years he may well have been able to shape
a much better south africa
a much better south africa
I think the trouble-free path to one man one vote is down to FW de Klerk more than anybody, considering it was he who brought it about?
He had to wait all those years because of his involvement in scores of innocent deaths, not because he missed the ****ing bus.
had he had a vote as a young man he wouldnt have needed the direct action
can you imagine not having a vote in your own country because of the colour of your skin
can you imagine not having a vote in your own country because of the colour of your skin
No I can't, but I don't suppose I'll have to wait that long to experience it.
I have to say trying to pin the badge on Mandela as villain of the peace is wide of the mark. Without him the country would be basket case. Thousands if not tens of thousands may have died. On the scale of "terrorist's" Mandela seems insignificant in that particular country!
To call him a " terrorists " seems hippocritcal from people in this country who allowed our Prime Minister to send in thousands of our soldiers into another country for a reason still unknown to kill thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of people have died as a consequence of the engagement that we were part of. Is Mandela really on that scale?
To call him a " terrorists " seems hippocritcal from people in this country who allowed our Prime Minister to send in thousands of our soldiers into another country for a reason still unknown to kill thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of people have died as a consequence of the engagement that we were part of. Is Mandela really on that scale?
It is Iraqi people killing thousands of people in Iraq, not Britain.
Sorry WD, I don't deal in degrees of evil. Mandela killed, and encouraged others to kill, innocents. The fact that some other people have killed more innocents does not lessen his crimes, and nor I'm afraid does his subsequent conversion to the path of peace.
Umkonto we Sizwe's aims were clear, its methods brutal, and he was its founder. That is pretty much that as far as I'm concerned.
You can have your debate about whether Blair or whoever is more evil, but I just don't believe in League tables for such things.
Umkonto we Sizwe's aims were clear, its methods brutal, and he was its founder. That is pretty much that as far as I'm concerned.
You can have your debate about whether Blair or whoever is more evil, but I just don't believe in League tables for such things.
we wouldnt be here without direct action jed
the list of others you casually dismiss include some good men
who others consider bad
the list of others you casually dismiss include some good men
who others consider bad
What is a country, and who should be allowed to vote? it is not as simple as it might seem to be.
Exactley lfc!
We were the ones responsible for allowing this to happen then we walked away saying it is not our problem except it is because the lunes over there want to come over here to kill us and we have lunes over here who use it as an excuse because their lives are so miserable that they want to kill us too and use it as some sort of pathetic excuse.
Thousands are flooding out of that God forsaken region of the world and it is causing chaos to any number of countries and we are the ones who helped facilitate it with our acts of terrorism!
We were the ones responsible for allowing this to happen then we walked away saying it is not our problem except it is because the lunes over there want to come over here to kill us and we have lunes over here who use it as an excuse because their lives are so miserable that they want to kill us too and use it as some sort of pathetic excuse.
Thousands are flooding out of that God forsaken region of the world and it is causing chaos to any number of countries and we are the ones who helped facilitate it with our acts of terrorism!
The world knows Mandela as the man who spent over two decades in jail, came out as the leader of the nation and did not go down the path of revenge. I have never heard anyone talk about Mandela's life before jail or even his trial(doesn't mean im saying he never killed). His claim to fame was the way he responded after becoming the president. He is and will be a hero to his people. And that's all that matters. Do you really think his people worry about what the rest of the world thinks? They dont give a feck.
We waste no time in honoring a war veteran, especially in America, even though its been a long time since we fought a legitimate war. What exactly do these war veterans do? They kill of course, on the orders of politicians, not because their life was put in danger. And that makes them honorable!
What Mandela did, or what his subsequent leaders do should not be our problem. If he was a murderer, then be it. If his people love him for being a murderer, its their choice. We are no one to determine if he was a villain or a hero, especially when we haven't yet clarified a hero to whom. Probably something on similar lines for guvera and Castro. They didn't sell roses during the guerilla wars did they? But they did emerge as heros not just in their countries but around the world too. They were heroes though the capitalists around the world would of course not agree with that. All that matters is which side of the fence you are on, the other side is always the evil one.
We waste no time in honoring a war veteran, especially in America, even though its been a long time since we fought a legitimate war. What exactly do these war veterans do? They kill of course, on the orders of politicians, not because their life was put in danger. And that makes them honorable!
What Mandela did, or what his subsequent leaders do should not be our problem. If he was a murderer, then be it. If his people love him for being a murderer, its their choice. We are no one to determine if he was a villain or a hero, especially when we haven't yet clarified a hero to whom. Probably something on similar lines for guvera and Castro. They didn't sell roses during the guerilla wars did they? But they did emerge as heros not just in their countries but around the world too. They were heroes though the capitalists around the world would of course not agree with that. All that matters is which side of the fence you are on, the other side is always the evil one.
So apart from bLiar and Mandela everyone else is a saint jed and worthy of our respect?
not at all wd, we liberated them from a brutal and evil dictator. If they don`t behave and be grateful then I put the blame on them.
I`m like that.
I`m like that.
The only mistake Blair and Bush made was of being naïve, they had good intentions.
Sorry WD, I don't know how you've extrapolated that from what I said above, I thought it was pretty clear.
As for you detraveller, if you believe impoverishing one's countrymen, bringing the world as close as it's come to nuclear war and imprisoning and torturing dissidents wherever you find them makes Castro a hero, then good luck to you.
As for you detraveller, if you believe impoverishing one's countrymen, bringing the world as close as it's come to nuclear war and imprisoning and torturing dissidents wherever you find them makes Castro a hero, then good luck to you.
You see jed, all I said was he was a hero to his people, not that I am a fan of his. Dont make things up
he`s not, just another one who likes to lecture America on how it should behave
As i said earlier too, Osama bin Laden is still a hero in many parts of the world. For his fans, he was the freedom fighter who blocked the russians. he died in 1999, when according to the last journalist ever to meet him he was a dialysis twice a week.
There's also the OBL that was involved in 9/11 and we know him as a terrorist. He was funnily enough killed in a night time raid and dumped in the sea. That doesn't mean he isn't an icon of the afghan resistance against foreign occupation. He is still a hero to them, and a terrorist for us. Just depends on which side you look from.
There's also the OBL that was involved in 9/11 and we know him as a terrorist. He was funnily enough killed in a night time raid and dumped in the sea. That doesn't mean he isn't an icon of the afghan resistance against foreign occupation. He is still a hero to them, and a terrorist for us. Just depends on which side you look from.
I suppose in detravellers book the N. Korean leader is a hero to his people also.
You said he was a hero to people all round the world mate, which of course he was, but only to idiots like yourself who despise America and its Allies.
Just taking a cheap shot jed, I'll give you that.
Having said that I think Mandela's " crimes " were insignificant compared to the inhumanity the majority of the peoples of South Africa suffered under Apartheid Regiemes. The things they did to fight back are incomparable to what they suffered.
Having said that I think Mandela's " crimes " were insignificant compared to the inhumanity the majority of the peoples of South Africa suffered under Apartheid Regiemes. The things they did to fight back are incomparable to what they suffered.
That would be fair enough WD, but Mandela killed his own people as well as whites.
very good detraveller, you can do the least possible harm by staying silent
the majority of the people in S. Africa did not face inhumanity.
not, at least in comparison to many, many other countries. Including Soviet Russia and conmmunist China
May I ask if we are talking about Mandela as a hero or villain for his own people? for whites? For Europe? Which side are we exactly on when we are determining if he's a hero or a villain?
we are just talking about people, that's all. not black or white
Bugger me lfc, that is the first sensible thing you have said in ages!
I don't know which side you're on, but I'm on my side. My view remains that people who kill scores of innocents can never be heroes, but then I don't indulge in the moral relativism favoured by knee-jerk haters of the West.
Now did millions of people in Poland get the vote under the Soviet regime?
I don't know.
Did millions of people in Russia get the vote under the Soviet regime
did millions of peple in E. Germany get the vote ,
I don't know.
I don't know.
Did millions of people in Russia get the vote under the Soviet regime
did millions of peple in E. Germany get the vote ,
I don't know.
Its not possible to talk about people like that lfc. Not in this world. To many he is the father of the nation. To others he is a murderer. At the end, you have to draw a line and view the person from both sides.
jed, can you name a few national heroes who never killed, or ordered killing? Its a genuine question and im sure there are some but my guess is their exploits would mostly be economic? Mahatir Muhammad comes to mind because he transformed Malaysia but ive no clue why exactly he was a hero.
jed, can you name a few national heroes who never killed, or ordered killing? Its a genuine question and im sure there are some but my guess is their exploits would mostly be economic? Mahatir Muhammad comes to mind because he transformed Malaysia but ive no clue why exactly he was a hero.
thanks wd
I`ll check it again I must have said something silly
I`ll check it again I must have said something silly
so here I am in Apartheid South Africa. Jed would have me talk to the authorities and saying really this Apartheid system is so unfair we really must change it for the good of all.................
The Murdering Apartheid scum actually who allowed the ANC and Mandela back to power were the ones who murdered Steve Biko.
The Murdering Apartheid scum actually who allowed the ANC and Mandela back to power were the ones who murdered Steve Biko.
I think you are assuming too much about what people, black and white in S. Africa think about Mandela.
There may be many thousands, or more, who would have been happy to see things in S. Africa remain, not totally unchanged, by nevertheless there were many very good things about the country for all its people.
There may be many thousands, or more, who would have been happy to see things in S. Africa remain, not totally unchanged, by nevertheless there were many very good things about the country for all its people.
lfc1971
04 Jul 17 19:42
we are just talking about people, that's all. not black or white
Your best post!
I hope you don't buy The Sun lfc!
Steve Biko, PBUH, was one man. Mandela admitted to over 150 acts of violence at his trial, including the murder of women and children.
Look at the chaos, and poverty, and violence, and repression in countries not just in Africa, but all over the world.
To build a peaceful and safe and free and democratic society is not easy it very difficult.
look around the world.
To build a peaceful and safe and free and democratic society is not easy it very difficult.
look around the world.
donny osmond
04 Jul 17 19:53
gandi was in favour of peaceful means
I think he got shot and killed!
Hundreds of thousands of Indian peoples killed each other!
South Africa would never have been changed by purely peaceful means although I have to say and people probably don'r remember the Apartheid system had the ANC under manners. De Klerk must be given credit for what he did and perhaps more than Mandela, all South Africans both white, black and hues should go down on bended knee to that man!
As a matter of interest how many black South Africans were killed or should I say were murdered by black South africans in uniform?
04 Jul 17 19:53
gandi was in favour of peaceful means
I think he got shot and killed!
Hundreds of thousands of Indian peoples killed each other!
South Africa would never have been changed by purely peaceful means although I have to say and people probably don'r remember the Apartheid system had the ANC under manners. De Klerk must be given credit for what he did and perhaps more than Mandela, all South Africans both white, black and hues should go down on bended knee to that man!
As a matter of interest how many black South Africans were killed or should I say were murdered by black South africans in uniform?
they shot and killed the striking miners just a couple of years ago, and then the new legal system in S Africa wanted to charge the miners with murder.
have any policemen faced charges, for shooting dead the striking miners,under the new ANCregime?
I don't know.
I don't know.
carnt give a rats about him or south afirca he wernt english so nowt should be named after him,even delboys flat was named after him
I think he was a Christian, that's a good start right there.
south africas apartheid government was under pressure from outside and sanctions
played their part too
played their part too
I used to work with a South African. It was a month before I realised why he was always banging on about 'Nissan Main Dealer'.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539