Dru g cheat Brits(maybe)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_100_metres_breaststroke

every single women in the 100m butterfly final beat the world record set by Jenny Thompson in Sydney in 1999

every single man in the 100m breaststroke final beat the world record set in 2001

wd hamster..thats where I was heading.

Swimming is getting faster. Unlikely to be drugs because it is too widespread. Look at the American Katie Ledecky who is absurdly fast. Is it the pools?

Paula Radcliffe was almost certainly drugs-free, and there was a very clear pattern to her form. She was only great in cool climates; she melted in the heat.

Chris Froome. Cycling is more about the team than the cyclist these days, like Formula One.

Jim Peters in the 1954 Vancouver Empire Games marathon. Very similar to Tom Simpson's collapse on the Ventoux in 1967 Tour de France.
Maybe.

Paula Radcliffe was almost certainly drugs-free, and there was a very clear pattern to her form. She was only great in cool climates; she melted in the heat.

So because she couldnt run in warm weather she was drugs free?


Her marathon time is absurd. Either its the greatest sporting performance of all time or shes a drugs cheat.

bet we dont as many medals as london 4 years ago a lot of them retired wonder why

You people really have no idea do you?

Throwing around unsubstantiated accusations like confetti.

Extrapolating data based on absurd logic.

Zero understanding - or at least, zero acknowledgement - of advances in sport science, diet, physiotherapy and equipment, rule changes and funding, allowing athletes to train harder and smarter. Advances that have moved sports on more in the last decade tan they have moved in the last century

Zero understanding of the testing procedures and  biochemistry (and substantial advances made in both of these areas) of testing.

Zero acknowledgement of the part an athletes dedication in training and wholesale life-changes can make to their performance

No. Just the usual bar-room bore loudmouth ramblings designed to do nothing more than show just how big and clever the deliverer is, whilst actually confirming the exact opposite.

the.mad.dog.man
Joined: 11 Dec 01
Replies: 6534
    10 Aug 16 09:24   


bet we dont as many medals as london 4 years ago a lot of them retired wonder why

Because you will never beat the high of winning a Gold medal in front of your home crowd.

Because it's not simply a question of popping some pills and giving it a lash on the day. You basically put what everyone else calls 'a life' on hold for an Olympic Cycle, so maybe some athletes wanted to get back to the real world or, more likely, couldn't afford to not to for another 4 years in the prime of their lives.

I don't doubt that everything you have written above, Roger, is absolutely correct, sir.  That said, it is a rather unfair to berate folks too harshly for being suspicious, as history has so often proven those suspicions to be well founded.

she was named in Houses of Parliament as having suspicious blood samples and then refused to release her blood history

ok roger..no brit has ever used drugs to gain an advantage.
I may be a bar room bore but you are a simpleton.

So what OP is saying is that it is curious how a modern full-time athlete, backed by state-of-the-art facilities, diet, specific training regimes and funding etc. can perform better than a bloke who used to get up in the morning, do a paper round, catch the bus into town and clock-in at the butchers and chop meat for a day, have a quick jog around the town shale track, then spend the evening in the local boozer.... hmmm... he has a point.

Carl Lewis was the biggest disappointment for me personally.

I'm not saying no Brit has ever used PED's.

That would be manifestly wrong and nor am I saying no Brit will ever be found guilty of using PED's, fail a drugs test or even fall foul of the drugs testing procedure. In fact I'm perversely quite pleased when they are found out, since, unlike plenty herein, I don't use this to back up a 'they're all at it' stance (just what would it take for you to drop the cynical pose BTW?, but see it as the system working.

Someone like Lizzie Armistead should not be competing at these Games, but that is down to the lily-livered approach to enforcement adopted by governing bodies (thankfully the International Paralympic Committee are showing some spine and leadership here) not the PED testing procedures.

I am saying that for whatever reason - ignorance of proven, substantiated facts, trying to look cool and 'in the know', knocking other peoples enjoyment of something,. I don't know - there is a group of posters in here who are so far wide of the mark they make Emile Heskey look like a sharpshooter.

PokerDane
Joined: 06 Aug 10
Replies: 445
    10 Aug 16 09:34   

I don't doubt that everything you have written above, Roger, is absolutely correct, sir.  That said, it is a rather unfair to berate folks too harshly for being suspicious, as history has so often proven those suspicions to be well founded. 


NO IT HASN'T!!

That's the very point I am making!!

Everyone points at those who fail a test or don't comply with the testing procedures and then, bizarrely, leap to the conclusion that all athletes are drugs cheats, maybe invoking some tricksy data extrapolation to back up their position.

Turn it on it's head.

Doesn't the fact that the vast percentage of British medallists across all Olympic sports are clean and comply with the testing procedures for their sport, nullify the very argument you are making? Or at the very least, ensure that those who do fail or fail to comply with procedures, are viewed as an outlying aberration?

Heather Stanning - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Helen Glover - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Kat Copeland - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Sophie Hosking - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Alex Gregory - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Pete Reed - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Andy Triggs-Hodge - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Tom James - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Kath Grainger - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures (in fact carried on being tested during 2 years of non-completion)

Anna Watkins - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Jessica Ennis - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Greg Rutherford - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Ben Ainslie - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Andy Murray - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Laura Bechtolsheimer - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Charlotte Dujardin - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Ed McKeever - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Etienne Stott & Tim Baillie - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

etc......

etc....

think they got the nod when the testers were due

Lance Armstrong Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedure

That the best you got?

My point well and truly made.

One non-British Olympic Bronze medal winner!

Scott Brash - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Carl Hester - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Michael Jamieson - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

Gemma Gibbons - Clean and never failed to comply with drugs testing procedures

I can keep this going 'til the (non-steroid enhanced) cows come home......

the.mad.dog.man
Joined: 11 Dec 01
Replies: 6535
    10 Aug 16 10:14   

think they got the nod when the testers were due

On what basis?

win a gold and earn a million

tests mean nothing. Even this russian dope controversy only came about when an insider turned informant much like when Armstrong was caught when Landis turned informant....

Big difference between being clean and not testing positive.

The idea of world records set by East Germans being destroyed by clean athletes etc.... is laughable. The idea of the entire field within olympic finals beating world records set within the last 20 years is comical.

bit like the olympics.....one big joke 

Well, I've put forward sound statements as to why what you say is not comical but entirely understandable

And as far as natural law and those without your psychic abilities are concerned, there is no difference between 'being clean and not testing positive', other than in your world of innuendo and (PED-enhanced) leaps of logic.

Whereas all you have to offer is bluster and smiley emoticons.

Now, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You are in your corner and I am in mine.

I just want anyone else reading this thread to keep an open mind on this issue.

the.mad.dog.man
Joined: 11 Dec 01
Replies: 6536
    10 Aug 16 11:30

win a gold and earn a million 


Care to speculate on how much any of the names I listed above earned from winning their Gold at London 2016?

I don't know but I'd suggest it's substantially south of 'a million'.

roger..if something seems to good to be true it usually is.
paula being 3 minutes ahead of the next best time in history and the 100 metre breast
stroker being 1.66 seconds ahead of the next best time are highly unlikely to be clean.

Well until it's proven otherwise you will have to believe you are right, whilst I have science and natural justice on mine.

are you aware of Dr Fuentes?..if not google him.

science is not on your side as the scientists are working for BOTH sides.

science? The russians were only outed when an inside turned informant just like Armstrong. Tests aren't worth a carrot.

David Millar the british cyclist was only found out when french police raided his home and he eventually admitted using EPO....
he never failed a single test.

The world record progressions in the olympics are a joke and show the freak show and circus the olympics is

sofiakenny is spot on

why froome suspicions ?

science is not on your side as the scientists are working for BOTH sides.

in some cases its been shown the same scientist has been working for both sides

Be a lot easier if everyone could take what they wanted. Save a fortune in anti doping costs. If they want to risk their lives then go right ahead.

Science can't be on the side of 'clean' when 'clean science' needs whistleblowers to know what to test for!

Somebody mentioned Millar. I remember him saying he phoned Armstrong just before Christmas to wish him a good one. LA was in France training the Tour route while Millar was drinking at a party. LA had unbelievable drive and the best doping regime. It's not one or the other.

People have heard so many reasons why someone is so good that turned out to be b0llocks. Not everybody is doping but how many times does it happen or get covered up before you just switch off a bit and take it all with a pinch of salt?

Be a lot easier if everyone could take what they wanted. Save a fortune in anti doping costs. If they want to risk their lives then go right ahead.

So if your kids wanted to take up competitive sport, you'd be happy to pump them full of drugs ?

A lot of it's difficult for mere mortals like me to understand, as an example Carl Lewis tested positive 3 times at the olympic trials but offered up a defence that he accidentally consumed banned substances. Some months later he won a number of golds at the Olympics.

once you accept drugs

what's the best drug

This is from memory - not from google, but as I read in a book, at the time of the positive tests on Carl Lewis, Strict Liability rules were not in place, so mitigating circumstances could be taken into account and a ban would not be automatic. That's what happened. If the tests had been done under today's rules, then the amounts detected were so low they would not have been positive results.

I'm not saying Lewis never doped, but with regard to the failed tests, it's best to understand the circumstances.

Cycling
Possibly clean for the first year - the one year beginners contract.
From then on you get a contract if you support the team.
Cycling team doctors - what is that about?

seb coes 800m world record must be the most dodgey of all time

roger Florence Griffith Joyner never failed a test..do you honestly believe she was clean??

You're right Degs, I looked on google for that however I do think that if possible they should have just one system of testing (I'm sure that's how it's intended to be).

Michael Johnson, Bob Beaman? Both held world records that stood for years.

Lee, it was largely because there were so many cases where excuses would be given (and accepted) that they brought in the strict liability rules, where athletes are responsible for whatever is found in their samples. That's how it's supposed to work anyway, but ban lengths can still vary with circumstances I think.

Bob Beamon - the standout memory of any Olympics for me

Altitude for Beamon?

Beamon's jump was a one-off. He was favourite for the gold, but had never jumped anywhere near 8.90 (no-one had) and he never got remotely close to it afterwards. Altitude and a wind speed give of exactly 2.0 m/s, the maximum allowed.

sofiakenny
Joined: 02 Apr 05
Replies: 17641
    10 Aug 16 14:58   

roger Florence Griffith Joyner never failed a test..do you honestly believe she was clean??

I don't know as I'm not familiar with the American testing system, certainly not as it was back in her day.

Certainly her early death and change in physique are indicators (though no more than that and certainly not evidence) of something suspicious. Unless anything comes to light from colleagues or an autopsy (and how ghoulish do you want to get on this?) or reevaluation all these years later of samples, we will never know, will we.

She is American of course and not British.

is bolt clean?

Unfortunately we've got to a stage where the cynics will always look at a great performance and accuse the person of drug taking. Sadly, people love to be negative and bring people down. I know well two British competitors in Rio who have both won Olympic medals in previous Olympics and I would bet my life on them being clean. I would also suggest that the vast majority of athletes are clean and that in the UK we have very good drug testing procedures. I find it very insulting to my friends that they are automatically seen as drug cheats if they win.

Amongst those mentioned in the thread I'd be pretty sure that Paula Radcliffe was clean. There is nothing in her performances to suggest otherwise. She was always world class at shorter distances but anyone could see that a step up to the marathon was going to be the making of her. Of course there have been a large number of drug cheats particularly amongst the sprinters, most of which have been caught at one time or other and a few which may not have tested positive but whom were almost certainly guilty. It is very unfair to tarnish everyone with the same brush.

As for Lizzie Armistead she is also almost certainly clean but shouldn't have been allowed to compete for her 3 missed tests.

who's fault is it believing they are drug cheats,not the publics

try I.O.C

he says he is xmoneyx,surely that's good enough?

I've been away recently but did Lizzie Armitstead really miss 3 tests? Weren't there extenuating circumstances in respect of one of them?

yeh she had her phone switched off when expecting a call,got sports new mr fixit lawyer to sort it for her

Lee, to be precise on the first of her missed tests she was at a competition and staying in a hotel. She had given the hotel details to the testers but not her room number. The tester called at 6.00a.m but the hotel would not give him the room details. He tried calling her but it was at 6.00a.m and her phone was on silent. She was  tested the following day in competition and was negative. She appealed this missed test as she was where she said she was (which is the basis of the procedure) and won the appeal. The tester was criticised for giving up too early though I'm not really sure what else he was expected to do. The problem for me was that this was the 1st missed test and she didn't appeal it at the time. She only appealed it after missing a test the 3rd time (family emergency which by all accounts was a genuine situation but still she should have notified the testers of a change of whereabouts for that day.) As i said previously I'd be pretty sure she was clean but her reasons were not good enough and she got off on a technicality.

The cynicism is well placed. All Bolt's rivals have posted positive tests yet can not get near his time 9.58 so it takes a stretch of the imagination to think he is 100% clean.

And what about Linford eh? Just the once towards the end of his career the script goes...

Christie tested positive for the stimulant pseudoephedrine at the 1988 Seoul Olympics, but he escaped sanction after the International Olympic Committee's disciplinary committee voted by a margin of 11 to 10.[16]

At the 1994 European championships staged in Helsinki, where British team captain Christie won his third European 100 m title, he was caught up in a doping controversy after Solomon Wariso, a 400 m runner making his international championship debut, tested positive for the stimulant ephedrine. Wariso revealed that he had used an over-the-counter pick-you-up called "Up Your Gas", which Christie had bought at a Florida pharmacy.[17]

In 1999, Christie was found guilty of using the performance-enhancing drug nandrolone following a doping test after an indoor meet in Germany. He was found to have more than 100 times normal levels of the metabolites of nandrolone in his urine. Various explanations were offered to explain the results, including eating avocado, or using nutritional supplements.[18][19][20]

The IAAF rejected that explanation and gave Christie a two-years ban from athletics, despite UK Athletics feeling that there was reasonable doubt whether the drug had been taken deliberately, a decision which ignored the usual drug testing principle of "strict liability".[21]

English athletes do cheat as well.

why a vote?your either guilty or not guilty

Absolutely British athletes cheat too. David Jenkins and Alan Wells were interesting situations in the 70's/80's. There was also Dwayne Chambers and I'm sure a number of others. The point is that one person failing a test shouldn't lead to us believing that everyone is cheating.

Jenkins admitted drug use, Wells hasn't. Jenkins also states that his best performances were when he was clean and the main result of taking steroids was injury. Doesn't always work out how you expect.

I find it incredible that anyone can think the womans marathon record is probably clean
3 minutes!!!!

Not being caught by the testers means nothing.

Marion Jones -  America's darling never failed a test -  drug cheat

Justin Gatlin -  faster now "clean" than when he was using PEDs. Who here thinks he's doing this clean? Guess he must just eat more spinach...

No doubt whatsoever about Paula.

Caught by drug testers and failed by drug testers?
I'm guessing many are caught but not failed.

Has to be remembered that most testing is carried out by a nation's governing body of the sport - they have no interest in exposing cheats.

therapeutic use exemptions are another scandal -  would be interesting to know how many top sports stars are using medication for terrible medical conditions. we won't be told though all confidential -  except when Sharapova forgot her meds were no longer exempt

therapeutic use exemptions are another scandal

read one article that stated 25% of british athletes in 2012 had asthma compared to 1 in 12 of the normal population

roger will require proof!

therapeutic use exemptions are another scandal

read one article that stated 25% of british athletes in 2012 had asthma compared to 1 in 12 of the normal population

and there's no pockets in them running shorts to store your inhaler.

sofiakenny
Joined: 02 Apr 05
Replies: 17644
    10 Aug 16 18:33   

roger will require proof! 


Amazing!

Start a thread on here extolling the virtues of religion or Christianity and you can't move for folks laughing at the naivite of belief in something and demanding proof one's God exists.

But drugs cheats?

Well they're everywhere, because....because...well, they are aren't they? Everyone knows that and the World Record has been smashed by an individual who is x seconds better than everyone else (I thought everyone was on PED's - or is it just those who are far better than anyone else? Still, proof and clear thinking isn't a strong suit here), oh and now we'll take a thread about British Athletes and bring in examples from the rest of the World and....and...)

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince those in the opposite corner to me. I know what I know and you believe what you believe.

But if Vicky Thornley and Kath Grainger get a medal tomorrow, or whenever they race, then I hope anyone who has followed this thread will know for certain they have won it clean and won it on bags of talent, hitting tougher work schedules than you or I can dream about, missing key events in friends and families lives, having a restricted social life and being utterly committed to their sport and to winning.

Drugs don't and never have entered into the equation.

Not having Seb Coe.

we can't know for certain who is clean because the testing is inadequate. but rowers are more likely to be clean than a lot of others because the money involved is peanuts

There are those who will want to think the worst of British athletes, it is an agenda they have and a mindset.

There are those who will want to think the worst of foreign athletes, it is an agenda they have and a mindset.

Best of luck tomorrow Vicky & Kath

missing key events in friends and families lives, having a restricted social life and being utterly committed to their sport and to winning.

The auld Chinese could learn a lesson or two on that sort of thing

andrew bree who is working for RTE failed a test before 2008 olympics, said it was a nasal spray and was allowed to compete..........if he was working for BBC he would get a lot of flak on here but because hes irish, we all believe him dont we..............atheletes use nasal sprays an awful lot...........and cough medicine

hitmanhearn
     10 Aug 16 20:15   

Not having Seb Coe. 


I was at Loughborough in the early 80's doing Sports Science, when Coe was taking all before him.

The numbers he was recording in physiological test were off the scale, as was the volume and intensity of exercise he was doing.

Now of course, some will say that was the reason he was better than everyone else - outlying genetics, plus hard-work, plus the best Sports Science and training facilities (at the time) he could get.

Others would say he could only train that hard because he had some sort of uber-drug that no one was aware of, masked at the time and over all the years since. No proof of course, just belief and, well, he had to be hadn't he?

Needless to say which camp I'm in......

Fair enough but Olympic Champs must be better than everyone else by design surely. I can't say I'm informed enough to put up much of an argument to be fair. Certainly you're better placed than me I just can't see it. Linford for sure imo.

What you have to understand, particularly when dealing with track and field, is that outliers do exist.

The example of Bob Beamon was brought up earlier - his world record stood for two decades. So he must have been a cheat? It was well known at the time that Beamon's talent could see him smash the world record to bits, and it came to pass. Everything - run-up, wind, take-off. He jumps 8.90. And it wasn't like nobody approached that record - the Armenian Robert Emmiyan later jumped 8.86, and he was but a hanger. Lewis got close, and even after he and Powell broke the record, the Cuban Pedroso is acknowledged to have jumped way beyond 9m, albeit with an illegal jump. And one should also bear in mind that JC Owens set a long-jump record in 1936 that stood for 25 years.   

Coe's record over 800m, and even more so his 1000m record of 2.12.18 - his 800m split for that run was 1:44:56 - again stood for a couple of decades. As Roger says above, Coe's physiological advantages made the times he ran possible - he was an awesome, once-in-a-lifetime athlete. There is a very good article online by a chap called Frank Horwill about Coe, which one might read in order to get some idea about his natural brilliance. He was no cheat.

And Usain Bolt. This guy is a freak, not a cheat. Even the greatest of his contemporaries will take 41 strides to run 100m. Bolt takes 36. The only real surprise is that sometimes his dominance is measured in mere centimetres.

As for Paula. It is beyond sick that anyone could think she was a cheat. A fact not perhaps widely understood about the women's marathon is that it is a relatively new event, and that the potential for improvement in times is commensurately greater just because of that. More importantly, one should realise that Radcliffe had always shown the potential to be a great marathon runner. She would be done for toe in International 10ks every time, invariably as it turned out by dopers. All her training, her physiology, was there for her to set new landmarks the further she went.

Of course people cheat, of course they do. I like to think I've been obsessed with Track and Field for long enough to know who's cheating and who isn't. Ultimately though, the cheats make fools of us all. The bottom line is you can think what you like about the probity of any given athlete, foreign or British, but you can never be sure.

Bolt could be an outlier - but it seems strange that this outlier comes from a small island where every other elite athlete has failed a test.

I often think Greg Rutherford might be clean -  his distances aren't much further than Lynn Davies was jumping 5 years ago.

*50 years

so these people are clean but we agree there are drug cheats out there,so we,re asked to believe that those taking the drugs to try and catch up with the world record holders cant get even close to them for 20 years,i,m signed in as a doubter

so these people are clean but we agree there are drug cheats out there,so we,re asked to believe that those taking the drugs to try and catch up with the world record holders cant get even close to them for 20 years,i,m signed in as a doubter

The opposite position -- that all the medallists are drug cheats, every single one of them, sounds equally unlikely, if not absurd.

Maybe not all of them but who can forget tbe medal ceremony at the 1988 Olympics, when drug cheat Ben Johnson received his well earned gold medal, drug cheat Carl Lewis a silver, and plucky drug cheat Linford Christie picked up a brave bronze?

I doubt that was the only occasion when three cheats stood on the podium, but I didn't go to Loughborough.

I was gutted to learn that Carl Lewis was a drug cheat.  I love athletics and had always looked up to him as the greatest, especially as he was supposed to be a vegan like myself.  It certainly made me wonder whether that's not true either.  I guess it was the same for cycling enthusiasts with the Lance Armstrong revelations.

The most worrying aspect, though, was how the American authorities allegedly hushed everything up.  How can one not have suspicions?

coaches,managers are seriously wealthy thru athletics ,sound of silence is golden

It is a crime that Calvin Smith, who never failed a drug test of any kind, does now own an Olympic Gold Medal. I don't suppose it's much comfort to him that I believe he should have one.

**does not** apologies

There are many others in the same position, of course, Jed.  Sharron Davies instantly springs to mind.

Plus all the clean athletes competing during the years of East German dominance.  Oh, and the Chinese in the swimming, the list is a depressingly long one.

The prime example for me was Kathy Smallwood. Beaten by drug cheat after drug cheat.

Occasionally a freakish individual comes along who has exceptional physical assets combined with the mental qualities to exploit those advantages to the max. This person may then produce some off the scale records. Arkle the racehorse had exceptional physiology with a huge heart and lungs. He marmalised the opposition but was never accused of being on drugs.
Miguel Indurain, 5 times winer of the Tour de France was another freakish competitor.According to the University of Ferrara, who conducted tests on Indurain, his strength came from his body's superior physiology. His blood took 7 litres of oxygen around his body per minute, compared to 3–4 litres for an ordinary person and 5–6 litres for fellow riders. His cardiac output was 50 litres a minute; a fit amateur cyclist's is about 25 litres.[28] Indurain's lung capacity was 7.8 litres, compared to an average of 6 litres.[2] His resting pulse was as low as 28 BPM, compared to an average 60–72 bpm, which meant his heart would be less strained in the tough mountain stages.

Indurain, in addition to being an exceptional athlete, was also a doper of course.  Arkle, I'm prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to

What would Arkle's time be over 100m from a standing start?

so all the new training methods,diets,sports science allowed drug cheats and non cheats to smash the rest of the world records in coes era but because of his abnormal body his stood alone,although he lost olympic finals run 10 secs slower than his wr,believe it if you wish , i,m a cynic and off course before he was outed by a team mate the exact things you say about indurain were spouted out by armstrongs supporters,even suggesting drugs taken for his cancer were a help

he lost olympic finals run 10 secs slower than his wr

really ?

That's nonsense degs.

well, yeah

According to the University of Ferrara

Francesco Conconi was a lead figure in sports science at this university. The IOC and CONI funded his research into a test for EPO. He told them he was using amateur riders as test subjects. Only when his offices were raided, did they find out he was actually using professional athletes and he was using the money received from the IOC and CONI to buy the EPO which he was selling onto the athletes whilst also advising them how they could avoid detection

womens 10000 m winner never failed a drugs test, YET, LOL