Here's two questions for you EO. I've kept them relatively simple so you can reply.....


Have you ever saw Robinson box, whether it be on video, DVD or YouTube?

Secondly, what would your reaction be if I was to say the Ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time?

He doesn't use google. Laugh


I never said that if you care to read again. I said that I hadn't used google.....up until that point.

The reason being I've read plenty about Robinson on google in the past.

Is that it??? What a poor show from EO here. He mentioned the three musketeers,  Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon. And when I provide the evidence he suddenly goes all quiet. Why would that be. Ermm let me guess, he is wrong. Full stop.

Not only did I give him a severe beating on the ropes, but both his eyes are cut and he's legless.

What's that I hear? The referee has stopped the bout for fear of further damage? He went from EO to KO.


PS 'Melly sends his regards.

Boxing is about opinions. Mine is Sugar Ray was nowhere near the best Middleweight of all time as winning and losing the title several times is nowhere near as good as holding it for years without losing.
Now as welterweight when he was in his prime thats different but people always focus on the 5 times champion bit.

Blimey, you turn your back for a couple of days.....
I don't 'know' who the best middleweight of all-time was, the best I've seen in my lifetime was probably Hagler, but Robinson is surely in the mix. To also be pretty much universally acknowledged as the best welter, made him very special indeed.
On a related subject, it saddens me a little when those who don't pay too much attention to the game think of Duran as being perhaps the weak link in that great 4 man rivalry in the 80s. He had a whole career as perhaps the greatest lightweight ever to lace up before the first fight with Leonard that started the sequence.

You are a real zealot stewarty B.

Hagler was never KO'd (in fact he never even hit the deck, his 1 time v Roldan the experts agree was a push). Hagler fought and beat the best for years. HE never had to 'reclaim' the title. To many he was unbeaten. His 2 points losses are very highly disputed. From the moment Hagler destroyed Minter he ruled the middleweight division.

Hagler also battered a peak Hearns in the 3 round epic dubbed the best fight of all time. Hagler had an iron chin, a ferocious work ethic and was a precision boxer who KO'd every single pretender to his crown until the points win over Duran.

For me he is the greatest. Notice, I said 'for me.' I respect others may choose Robinson or whoever. That is what opinion is about.

Stewarty

Sorry about the delay. I assumed this one had died when you got laughed off the forum after your odds. I used to own a large collection of boxing videos including many of Robinson's best fights. I haven't felt the need to watch any on you tube. What evidence is it you think you've provided? I've told you my beef with your assertion about regaining the title. You've got to lose it first to win it back. That's something which is a negative. Using Hagler as an example he lost the title at the end of his career and had an unbroken record as the man in the division taking on all comers for several years including legends. That was his legacy as it was for Hopkins and Monzon.

I remember having an interesting discussion several years ago with a boxing afficionado who was convinced that Hagler's peak came when he fought some of those unheralded but very underrated Philly middles of the late 70's. I said Hagler showed his greatness by evolving his style from a slick southy into a seek and destroy beast in the early 80's. It's a similar story to Ali's. He was probably the greatest in the late 60's when nobody could lay a glove on him but he then proved it in the 70's when he took on the golden generation of heavies having lost his greatest asset of his speed and he still emerged as that eras greatest heavyweight.

So yes, I'd agree he was the greatest heavyweight in my view but not because he lost and won the title which was the rather clumsy admission you were seeking. That in itself was a negative for Ali as well but other factors counter tha negative.

As for what other people think they are all entitled to their views. I have Robinson down as the greatest welter. I'm not overly concerned by this mythical pound for pound business but you can't keep Robinson out of frame for that if you are. Where we agree or we seemed to is that you look at a fighters record which helps form an opinion about their merits. Robinson's record has to be impacted as a middle by the fact that he came to it late in his career and his record taken in isolation as a middle is one of a great fighter but not the greatest because of this and losing the fights he did.

TKO is a KO as you are in no position to defend yourself!

SRR hit the canvas plenty of times. La Motta wiped the floor with him when beating him. La Motta floored SRR in separate fights and SRR was saved by the bell on the count of 9 when put through the ropes and also got up on the count of 9 the 2nd time. SRR was decked over 20 times in his career.

Hagler was never even decked with a legitimate punch against superior foes to SRR.

Sugar Ray Leonard is rated the twelve best ever.....
























   








By Kieran Mulvaney | Special to ESPN.com

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50 Greatest

Who's really the greatest of all time? ESPN.com ranks 'em. Let the debate begin.
• How we picked the list | 50-41 | 40-31 | 30-21 | 20-11 | 10-1 | The entire list



10. Sam Langford

Lightweight, welterweight, middleweight, heavyweight
Ring career: 1902-26 Record: 167-38-37-3 (117 KOs) and 48 no-decisions
Career notes: Almost certainly the greatest fighter never to win, or even fight for, a world title. … Fought all the way from lightweight to heavyweight, and continued to fight -- and win -- even after becoming almost completely blind in one eye and partially blind in another. … Problem was that he was just too good. That, and the fact that heavyweight career overlapped with that of Jack Johnson -- who refused to give him a title shot, and whose behavior outside the ropes made promoters leery about the prospect of another black heavyweight champion -- combined to deny him the world title opportunity he deserved. … After being forced to retire because of blindness, disappeared from view until he was rediscovered by journalist Al Laney in 1944.


9. Jack Dempsey

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1914-27 Record: 61-6-8 (50 KOs) and 6 no-decisions
Career notes: Held world heavyweight title from 1919 to 1926, although only six of his fights during that period were official title defenses. … Furious two-fisted punching style was hugely popular with fans. … Engaged in some of the most celebrated battles of all time, including with Luis Angel Firpo and Gene Tunney. … The "Manassa Mauler" was the face of boxing at a time when it was still, along with baseball and horse racing, the most popular sport in the land. … Rakishly handsome and charismatic outside the ring, was all-action inside it, brandishing a breathtaking, go-for-broke fighting style. … Won the title by shattering the jaw of giant Jess Willard. … When he lost it, by decision to Tunney in 1926, it was in front of the largest paid attendance in the history of boxing -- more than 120,000 spectators. … In rematch, floored Tunney for a count of nine, the infamous "long count" in which Tunney was actually on the canvas for 14 seconds. … After losing rematch, retired and opened a restaurant in New York.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Jack Dempsey ESPN Video


8. Jack Johnson

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1897-1928 Record: 77-13-14 (48 KOs) and 19 no-decisions
Career notes: First black heavyweight champion. … Beat Tommy Burns to win crown in 1908, and held on to it until defeated by Jess Willard in 1915. … Was in many ways precursor to Muhammad Ali: dominant in the ring and deliberately provocative and antagonizing outside it, shocking and infuriating white society with his boldness and arrogance. … Was driven into exile for much of his reign, living and fighting in Europe and South America to avoid facing charges under the profoundly racist Mann Act, which prohibited the transport of white women across state lines for immoral purposes. … Died in an auto accident in 1946.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Jack Johnson ESPN Video


7. Benny Leonard

Lightweight 
Ring career: 1911-32 Record: 85-5-1 (69 KOs) and 121 no-decisions
Career notes: Won world lightweight championship in May 1917, and retired as champion in January 1925, making him the longest-reigning lightweight champion ever. … After more than seven years, made return to the ring, winning 18 of 19. … At one stage, fought 154 consecutive bouts without losing. … Of five losses, three were in his formative ring years, one was on a foul when challenging for the welterweight championship and one was the final contest of his career, during his comeback after a seven-year layoff, against fellow Hall of Famer Jimmy McLarnin. … Exceptional all-around talent possessed speed, accuracy and power in one package. … Became a referee after retirement, and collapsed and died in the ring while refereeing a bout in New York state.


6. Roberto Duran

Lightweight, welterweight, junior middleweight, middleweight
Ring career: 1968-2001 Record: 103-16 (70 KOs)
Career notes: Won lightweight championship from Ken Buchanan in 1972. … Snarling, unstoppable ring monster dominated lightweight division for seven years, and then outhustled Sugar Ray Leonard to become welterweight champ in 1980. … Quit in the rematch with Leonard five months later. … At 32, destroyed Davey Moore to win a junior middleweight belt in 1983, and fought bravely against Marvin Hagler five months later. … In 1984, was felled, flat on his face, by Tommy Hearns inside two rounds. … In the 21st year of professional career, improbably won a middleweight belt by beating Iran Barkley in 1989.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Roberto Duran ESPN Video


5. Willie Pep

Featherweight
Ring career: 1940-66 Record: 230-11-1 (65 KOs)
Career notes: Two-time world featherweight champion renowned for legendary defensive skills. … Achieved tremendous success despite suffering near-fatal injuries in a plane crash in 1947. … Legend that says he once won a round without throwing a punch (he almost certainly did not) is testament to defensive wizardry of "Will o' the Wisp." … Won first 63 bouts before losing to Sammy Angott, and then went 72-0-1 before losing again, to Sandy Saddler. … Only Saddler was ever truly able to figure him out, winning three of four times in bouts that were frequently brutal and foul-filled.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Willie Pep ESPN Video


4. Joe Louis

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1934-51 Record: 68-3 (54 KOs)
Career notes: Won world heavyweight championship in 1937, and retired as champion in 1949. … Held heavyweight title for longer (11 years, 8 months, 7 days) and made more successful defenses (25) than anyone. … Defined by two fights against Max Schmeling of Germany. In first encounter, was unbeaten and knocked out in the 12th round, in June 1936. In rematch, almost exactly two years later, as world champion knocked out challenger in the first round, becoming hero to black and white Americans alike, and cemented his place as one of the most popular champions of all time.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Joe Louis ESPN Video


3. Henry Armstrong

Featherweight, lightweight, welterweight
Ring career: 1932-45 Record: 151-21-9 (101 KOs)
Career notes: Only boxer to hold world titles at three different weights simultaneously. … Won featherweight crown in October 1937. … Added welterweight title in May 1938 and became lightweight champion three months later. … Challenged for middleweight crown in 1940, and held champion Ceferino Garcia to a draw. … Known variously as "Hammerin' Hank" and "Homicide Hank." Third nickname, "Hurricane Hank," was perhaps the most appropriate. … Was a whirlwind of a fighter, a perpetual-motion machine who overwhelmed opponents with a nonstop, suffocating fusillade of punches. … Faced 17 world champions in career and defeated 15 of them.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Henry Armstrong ESPN Video


2. Muhammad Ali

Heavyweight
Ring career: 1960-81 Record: 56-5 (37 KOs)
Career notes: First to win heavyweight championship of the world three times. … Was banned from the ring for three years for refusing induction into the armed forces during the Vietnam War. … After ban was lifted, lost to Joe Frazier in "Fight of the Century" in 1971, but stunned George Foreman to regain belt in 1974. … Lost title to, and regained it from, Leon Spinks in 1978. … Three of defeats came in last four bouts, including two in an ill-advised emergence from retirement, against Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick, at 38. … Transcended the sport unlike any other boxer. … Reinvented the way heavyweights were supposed to fight, deploying a speed and athleticism that was previously unheard of; also alternately bedazzled and appalled America and the world with charisma, showmanship and braggadocio. … Viewed progressively over the years as loudmouth, villain, hero and finally a figure of pathos. … Remains for many the definition of a champion.
Let's go to the video: 50 Greatest: Muhammad Ali ESPN Video


1. Sugar Ray Robinson

Welterweight, middleweight
Ring career: 1940-65 Record: 175-19-6-2 (109 KOs)
Career notes: Won world welterweight title in December 1946, and defended it four times before stepping up in weight and winning, in 1951, first of five stints as middleweight champ. … Attempted to win light heavyweight title from Joey Maxim in 1952, but was stopped in the 14th round. … Born Walker Smith in Ailey, Ga. … Was the most complete boxer yet to grace the squared circle. … Lost just one of first 123 fights, to Jake LaMotta, a defeat avenged five times in a classic ring rivalry. … A near-perfect pugilist at welterweight, was less dominant at middleweight, but was still able to win the title five times, including three times after he had retired for two and a half years. … Only stoppage defeat was when challenging Maxim for light heavyweight crown, and then was leading on points until overcome by heat so extreme that it had forced the replacement of the referee in the 10th.