Well you make it sound like I'm a fan of dog fighting so that'd be a problem.

At no point have I had a pop at Benn so I've no idea where you get that from. I was cheering harder than Frank Bruno that night! I do have a problem with people who apparently take pleasure out of McClellan's plight.

Where have I suggested that you're a fan of dog fighting?

Your exact words were, "Anyone who thinks McClellan got what he deserved is as vile as him imo."

I would argue otherwise, McClellan took pleasure in encouraging his pitbull to rip to shreds a labrador with it's mouth taped shut. I don't believe anyone deserves his fate, I'm not that 'Old Testament', but I can see why people might feel that way and I certainly wouldn't rank that as being anywhere near as vile as his actions.

I may have been a little OTT but more than one person has suggested that they 'understand' if other people thinkhe got what he deserved. He deserved to be sent to prison, not being turned into a cabbage.

What McLellan did to that dog makes lessens the sympathy. I guess karma got him...

Robinson the best middleweight ever? Not in my view.


Sorry EO, but that is total bullsh!t. He was the best fighter ever, pound for pound. Even Sugar Ray Leonard and Ali said so. I would hazard a guess they are more qualified than you or me to comment.

He didn't really come to prominence until he moved up to middleweight. It was only then that he fought some of the greats, (too many to mention) and what other boxer has won and then lost their title only for this to happen FIVE times. NOBODY in the history of boxing has ever achieved this feat.

True, he was a great welterweight, but he showed his true class fighting 'proper' fighters when moving up to middleweight.


You say he wasn't the best ever middleweight. Please enlighten me to your choice of who was please. And don't say Superman.

Your knowledge is wafer thin stewarty.

He fought plenty of greats before he ever moved up to middle. You just don't know it because of this wafer thin knowledge. He prominence was well known throughout the 40's by beating these great fighters, often beating far heavier opponents, being the welter champ from 46 and continuing to fight great and future great welters. You just don't know it bcause of this wafer thin knowledge. His record as a welter is virtually unparalled in boxing history in any division. You just don't know this because of your wafer thin knowledge. You imply he didn't fight "proper" fighters till he moved up to middle. Guess what? Yep. Wafer thin. Finally you don't win the world title five times unless you first keep losing it. That doesn't get a fighter extra points. Winning it and keeping it is what builds a fighters legacy.

Robinson in beating some great middles can be classed as having a great middle career.No argument there. The point is that he didn't build a middle legacy through holding the title for any period of time without losing it and in losing it he showed he was one of several great middles of the time.

So you have to pay your money and take your choice. Did he establish his greatness more by being an unparalleled welter proving himself the best of all time with a record few could claim to match or did he do so winning and losing regularly against the better middles of the time later in his career?

I know what I think and my knowledge isn't wafer thin.

Of course, maybe you can't come up with an answer because your vote would be so close it would be wafer thin?

At his leisure. You're probably one of those guys with a Tyson duvet who thinks he only lost to Douglas because his mind wasn't on the job.

I've already given you three middleweights who established better legacies than Robinson did at middle. I'll remind you: Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon.



Now, let's get this clear. You are saying that these three boxers were better than Robinson?

I'm not sure if it is possible to enlighten you but I'll give it a go. Nope. I'm saying they had better careers as middleweights than Robinson. Robinson was a welter who went up to middle in the 50's after he'd had about 100 fights. Which part of that are you finding difficult?

My alternative theory is that he proved as a welter that he was nigh on invincible despite fighting as I say near 100 fights. When he fought at middle he won fights and lost some. That is a statistical fact. He didn't either win or lose "at his leisure". Sometimes he was the inferior fighter on the night. This wasn't the case at welter which is why I give him the nod over fighters like Armstrong for best welter. Even when he fought La Motta in theory at welter he used to give away up to a stone in weight. What he did become good at later in his career was assessing a fighters weaknesses and exploiting them in return matches which was one of the reasons why despite having lots of miles on the clock he was able to take the title in rematches against fighters who had previously beaten him.

Feel free to seek further enlightenment.

He's not Jimmy Tibbs, I know that much.

I don't know who the best ever middle was.


Christ, it only took four hours to get a reply!



Off the top of my head and given Robnison's record and who he struggled with I'd say a Robinson versus Hagler fight would be a classic and an even money match up


Here's how I would price up....

1/50 Robinson, 14/1 the draw, 66/1 Hagler.


Even your best pal 'melly' would take the 1/50, as it's a better rate than the banks give you.

Having said that, you keep dreaming, and if you ever come up with a name of substance I will donate one thousand pounds sterling to a charity of your choice. (proofed by Royal Mail on here)

Having said that, you keep dreaming, and if you ever come up with a name of substance I will donate one thousand pounds sterling to a charity of your choice. (proofed by Royal Mail on here)

Sorry I've only just read that part of your comical post. Bravo sir. You have a strange but oddly enticing sense of humour because you're certainly the first person I've ever witnessed suggesting that Monzon, Hagler and Hopkins are not names of substance. I'm guessing with some degree of certainty that you are either a very young man or someone who has no more than a passing interest in boxing. In fact. Give me a moment to get my breath and then:



Seriously. Bravo.

Don't know what went wrong there, anyways, in answer to your question.....


You are entitled to your opinion. How would you price up a Hagler versus Turpin fight?


1/20 Hagler, 16s the draw, 40s Turpin....who sadly took his own life.

btw EO, I don't know why you pretend to be a genius at this game. I can only say that since the start of this thread, I have never used google once. Unlike yourself...

I'm still waiting for a definitive answer as to who was better at Robinson at middleweight.


As to your comment.......



You may not have used google but you should have tried using your brain and you wouldn't have got so many facts wrong.



I think it would be good for your soul to get back to your true nemesis.....the one and only 'melly'.

You're wasting your time trying to educate me about boxing.


As for getting my facts wrong, that truly made me chuckle.



If they were facts, how can they be wrong???? Roffle.

think stewarty and EO cd go the distance

Well, I can only get you to commit yourself so far. tbf you haven't denied that Robinson was the best ever middleweight that has graced the planet. Whereas, I know for a fact that he was.


You mentioned Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon. do you think that any of these three could have lost their title, won it back, lost it again, won it back, lost it again, won it back, lost it again, won it back, lost it again and win it back? No chance.

Here endeth the lesson, although you tried your best even though you've been on the ropes most of the time.

Here's a wee google to back up my theory...




Robinson made his professional debut on October 4, 1940, winning via second-round knockout over Joe Echevarria.[11] Robinson fought five more times in 1940, winning each time, with four wins coming by way of knockout.[11] In 1941, he defeated world champion Sammy Angott, future champion Marty Servo and former champion Fritzie Zivic. The Robinson-Angott fight was held above the lightweight limit, since Angott did not want to risk losing his lightweight title. Robinson defeated Zivic in front of 20,551 at Madison Square Garden—one of the largest crowds in the arena to that date.[12] Robinson won the first five rounds according to The New York Times Joseph C. Nichols, before Zivic came back to land several punches to Robinson's head in the sixth and seventh rounds.[12] Robinson controlled the next two rounds, and had Zivic wobbly in the ninth. After a close tenth round, Robinson was announced as the winner on all three scorecards.[12]

In 1942, Robinson knocked out Zivic in the tenth round in a January rematch.[11] The knockout loss was only the second of Zivic's career in more than 150 fights.[13] Robinson knocked him down in the ninth and tenth rounds before the referee stopped the fight. Zivic and his corner protested the stoppage; James P. Dawson of The New York Times stated "[t]hey were criticizing a humane act. The battle had been a slaughter, for want of a more delicate word."[13] Robinson then won four consecutive bouts by knockout, before defeating Servo in a controversial split decision in their May rematch.[11] After winning three more fights, Robinson faced Jake LaMotta, who would become one of his more prominent rivals, for the first time in October.[11] He defeated LaMotta via unanimous decision. Robinson weighed 145 lb (66 kg) compared to 157.5 for LaMotta, but he was able to control the fight from the outside for the entire bout, and actually landed the harder punches during the fight.[14] Robinson then won four more fights, including two against Izzy Jannazzo, from October 19 to December 14.[11] For his performances, Robinson was named "Fighter of the Year". He finished 1942 with a total of 14 wins and no losses.[11]

Robinson built a record of 40–0 before losing for the first time to LaMotta in a 10 round re-match.[11][15] LaMotta, who had a 16 lb (7.3 kg) weight advantage over Robinson, knocked Robinson out of the ring in the eighth round, and won the fight by decision.[11] The fight took place in Robinson's former home town of Detroit, and attracted a record crowd.[15] After being controlled by Robinson in the early portions of the fight, LaMotta came back to take control in the later rounds.[15] After winning the third LaMotta fight less than three weeks later,[11] Robinson then defeated his childhood idol: former champion Henry Armstrong. Robinson only fought Armstrong because Armstrong was in need of money. By now Armstrong was an old fighter, and Robinson later stated that he carried Armstrong.

On February 27, 1943, Robinson was inducted into the United States Army, where he was again referred to as Walker Smith.[16] Robinson had a short 15 month military career. Robinson served with Joe Louis, and the pair went on tours where they performed exhibition bouts in front of US troops. Robinson got into trouble several times while in the military. He argued with superiors who he felt were discriminatory against him, and refused to fight exhibitions when he was told African American soldiers were not allowed to watch them.[8][17] In late March, 1944, Robinson was stationed at Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, waiting to ship out to Europe, where he was scheduled to perform more exhibition matches. But on March 29, Robinson disappeared from his barracks. When he woke up on April 5 in Fort Jay Hospital on Governor's Island, he had missed his sailing for Europe and was under suspicion of deserting. He himself reported falling down the stairs in his barracks on the 29th, but said that he had complete amnesia, and he could not remember any events from that moment until the 5th. According to his file, a stranger had found him in the street on 1 April and helped him to a hospital. In his examination report, a doctor at Fort Jay concluded that Robinson's version of events was sincere.[18] He was examined by military authorities, who claimed he suffered from a mental deficiency.[19] Robinson was granted an honorable discharge on June 3, 1944. He later wrote that unfair press coverage of the incident had "branded" him as a "deserter".[20] Robinson maintained his close friendship with Louis from their time in military service, and the two went into business together after the war. They planned to start a liquor distribution business in New York City, but were denied a license due to their race.[21]

Besides the loss in the LaMotta rematch, the only other mark on Robinson's record during this period was a 10 round draw against Jose Basora in 1945.[11]

Welterweight Champion[edit]

By 1946, Robinson had fought 75 fights to a 73–1–1 record,[11] and beaten every top contender in the welterweight division. However, he refused to cooperate with the Mafia, which controlled much of boxing at the time, and was denied a chance to fight for the welterweight championship.[22] Robinson was finally given a chance to win a title against Tommy Bell on December 20, 1946.[11] Robinson had already beaten Bell once via decision in 1945. The two fought for the title vacated by Servo, who had himself lost twice to Robinson in non-title bouts. In the fight, Robinson, who only a month before had been involved in a 10 round brawl with Artie Levine, was knocked down by Bell.[11] The fight was called a "war," but Robinson was able to pull out a close 15 round decision, winning the vacant welterweight title.

In June 1947, after four non-title bouts, Robinson was scheduled to defend his title for the first time in a bout against Jimmy Doyle.[11] Robinson initially backed out of the fight because he had a dream that he was going to kill Doyle. A priest and a minister convinced him to fight. Sadly, his dream proved true.[23][24] On June 25, 1947 Robinson dominated Doyle and scored a decisive knockout in the eighth round that knocked Doyle unconscious and resulted in Doyle's death later that night.[25] Robinson said that the impact of Doyle's death was "very trying". [A]

After his death, criminal charges were threatened against Robinson in Cleveland, up to and including manslaughter, though none actually materialized. Before that fight, Robinson had a dream that he was going to accidentally kill Doyle in the ring. As a result, he decided to pull out of the fight. Doyle only agreed to fight in order to use the money to buy his mother a house. Robinson gave Doyle's mother money from his next four bouts so she could purchase herself a home, fulfilling her sons intention.[26][27]

In 1948, Robinson fought five times, but only one bout was a title defense. Among the fighters he defeated in those non-title bouts was future world champion Kid Gavilan in a close, controversial 10 round fight. Gavilan hurt Robinson several times in the fight, but Robinson controlled the final rounds with a series of jabs and left hooks.[28] In 1949, he boxed 16 times, but again only defended his title once. In that title fight, a rematch with Gavilan, Robinson again won via decision. The first half of the bout was very close, but Robinson took control in the second half. Gavilan would have to wait two more years to begin his own historic reign as welterweight champion. The only boxer to match Robinson that year was Henry Brimm, who fought him to a 10-round draw in Buffalo.

Robinson fought 19 times in 1950.[11] He successfully defended his welterweight title for the last time against Charley Fusari. Robinson won a lopsided 15 round decision, knocking Fusari down once.[11] Robinson donated all but $1 of his purse for the Fusari fight to cancer research.[29] In 1950, Robinson fought George Costner, who had also taken to calling himself "Sugar" and stated in the weeks leading up to the fight that he was the rightful deserver of the name. "We better touch gloves, because this is the only round," Robinson said as the fighters were introduced at the center of the ring. "Your name ain't Sugar, mine is."[30] Robinson then knocked Costner out in 2 minutes and 49 seconds.[11]

Middleweight Champion[edit]

Robinson stated in his autobiography that one of the main considerations for his move up to middleweight was the increasing difficulty he was having in making the 147 lb (67 kg) welterweight weight limit.[31] However, the move up would also prove beneficial financially, as the division then contained some of the biggest names in boxing. Vying for the Pennsylvania state middleweight title in 1950, Robinson defeated Robert Villemain.[11] Later that year, in defense of that crown, he defeated Jose Basora, with whom he had previously drawn. Robinson's 50-second first round knockout of Basora set a record that would stand for 38 years. In October 1950, Robinson knocked out Bobo Olson a future middleweight title holder.[11]

On February 14, 1951, Robinson and LaMotta met for the sixth time. The fight would become known as The St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Robinson won the undisputed world middleweight title with a 13th round technical knockout.[11] Robinson outboxed LaMotta for the first 10 rounds, then unleashed a series of savage combinations on LaMotta for three rounds,[8] finally stopping the champion for the first time in their legendary six-bout series—and dealing LaMotta his first legitimate knockout loss in 95 professional bouts.[32] LaMotta had lost by knockout to Billy Fox earlier in his career. However, that fight was later ruled to have been fixed and LaMotta was sanctioned for letting Fox win. That bout, and some of the other bouts in the six-fight Robinson-LaMotta rivalry, was depicted in the Martin Scorsese film Raging Bull. "I fought Sugar Ray so often, I almost got diabetes," LaMotta later said.[9] Robinson won five of his six bouts with LaMotta.[11]

After winning his second world title, he embarked on a European tour which took him all over the Continent. Robinson traveled with his flamingo-pink Cadillac, which caused quite a stir in Paris,[33] and an entourage of 13 people, some included "just for laughs".[34] He was a hero in France due to his recent defeat of LaMotta—the French hated LaMotta for defeating Marcel Cerdan in 1949 and taking his championship belt (Cerdan died in a plane crash en route to a rematch with LaMotta).[8] Robinson met President of France Vincent Auriol at a ceremony attended by France's social upper crust; following the ceremony he kissed the President's blushing wife once on each cheek, then repeated the two kisses at the request of press photographers.[35] During his fight in Berlin against Gerhard Hecht, Robinson was disqualified when he knocked his opponent with a punch to the kidney: a punch legal in the US, but not Europe.[25] The fight was later declared a no-contest.[11] In London, Robinson lost the world middleweight title to British boxer Randolph Turpin in a sensational bout.[36] Three months later in a rematch in front of 60,000 fans at the Polo Grounds,[25] he knocked Turpin out in ten rounds to recover the title. In that bout Robinson was leading on the cards but was cut by Turpin. With the fight in jeopardy, Robinson let loose on Turpin, knocking him down, then getting him to the ropes and unleashing a series of punches that caused the referee to stop the bout.[37] Following Robinson's victory, residents of Harlem danced in the streets.[38] In 1951, Robinson was named Ring Magazine's "Fighter of the Year" for the second time.[39]

In 1952, he fought a rematch with Olson, winning by a decision.[11] He next defeated former champion Rocky Graziano by a third-round knockout, then challenged world light heavyweight champion Joey Maxim. In the Yankee Stadium bout with Maxim, Robinson built a lead on all three judges' scorecards, but the 103 °F (39 °C) temperature in the ring took its toll.[9] The referee, Ruby Goldstein, was the first victim of the heat, and had to be replaced by referee Ray Miller. The fast-moving Robinson was the heat's next victim – at the end of round 13, he collapsed and failed to answer the bell for the next round,[9] suffering the only knockout of his career.[11]

On June 25, 1952 after the Maxim bout, Robinson gave up his title and retired with a record of 131-3-1-1. He began a career in show business, singing and tap dancing. After about three years, the decline of his businesses and the lack of success in his performing career made him decide to return to boxing. He resumed training in 1954.

Comeback[edit]

In 1955, Robinson returned to the ring. Although he had been inactive for two and a half years, his work as a dancer kept him in peak physical condition: in his autobiography, Robinson states that in the weeks leading up to his debut for a dancing engagement in France, he ran five miles every morning, and then danced for five hours each night. Robinson even stated that the training he did in his attempts to establish a career as a dancer were harder that any he undertook during his boxing career.[40] He won five fights in 1955, before losing a decision to Ralph 'Tiger' Jones. He bounced back, however, and defeated Rocky Castellani by a split decision, then challenged Bobo Olson for the world middleweight title. He won the middleweight championship for the third time via a second round knockout—his third victory over Olson. After his comeback performance in 1955, Robinson expected to be named fighter of the year. However, the title went to welterweight Carmen Basilio. Basilio's handlers had lobbied heavily for it on the basis that he had never won the award, and Robinson later described this as the biggest disappointment of his professional career. "I haven't forgotten it to this day, and I never will" Robinson wrote in his autobiography.[41] They fought for the last time in 1956, and Robinson closed the four fight series with a fourth round knockout.[11]

In 1957, Robinson lost his title to Gene Fullmer.[11] Fullmer used his aggressive, forward moving style to control Robinson, and knocked him down in the fight.[42] Robinson, however, noticed that Fullmer was vulnerable to the left hook. Fullmer headed into their May rematch as a 3–1 favorite.[43] In the first two rounds Robinson followed Fullmer around the ring, however in the third round he changed tactics and made Fullmer come to him.[43] At the start of the fourth round Robinson came out on the attack and stunned Fullmer, and when Fullmer returned with his own punches, Robinson traded with him, as opposed to clinching as he had done in their earlier fight. The fight was fairly even after four rounds.[43] But in the fifth, Robinson was able to win the title back for a fourth time by knocking out Fullmer with a lightning fast, powerful left hook.[43] Boxing critics have referred to the left-hook which knocked out Fullmer as "the perfect punch".[44] It marked the first time in 44 career fights that Fullmer had been knocked out, and when someone asked Robinson after the fight how far the left hook had travelled, Robinson replied: "I can't say. But he got the message."[43]

Later that year, he lost his title to Basilio in a rugged 15 round fight in front of 38,000 at Yankee Stadium,[45] but regained it for a record fifth time when he beat Basilio in the rematch. Robinson struggled to make weight, and had to go without food for nearly 20 hours leading up to the bout. He badly damaged Basilio's eye early the fight, and by the seventh round it was swollen shut.[46] The two judges gave the fight to Robinson by wide margins: 72–64 and 71–64. The referee scored the fight for Basilio 69–64, and was booed loudly by the crowd of 19,000 when his decision was announced.[46] The first fight won the "Fight of the Year" award from The Ring magazine for 1957 and the second fight won the "Fight of the Year" award for 1958.[11]

As any kind of meaningful debate it ended with his hare brained odds charwell. You can't expect sanity from someone offering odds on a peak Hagler of 66-1 against a guy whose best was at welter and who then offers Turpin at 40-1 against Hagler when Turpin beat and very nearly stopped Robinson in the return.

Like I said his knowledge is wafer thin.